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-   -   How Much Do I Have To Premix In The Tank ? (https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/how-much-do-i-have-premix-tank-606071/)

Juango 12-16-06 06:46 PM

How Much Do I Have To Premix In The Tank ?
 
Hi Everyone, Juan Here From Puerto Rico. I Have A 93 Rx-7 , I Tooked Of The Oil Metering Pump From My Engine .

I Like To Know How Many Ounces I Have To Pour To The Engine Everytime I Fill The Tank , And How Many Ounces I Have To Pour When I Take It To The Track ?

GoodfellaFD3S 12-16-06 07:03 PM

I'd recommend verifying this, but I believe you want a 100:1 ratio.

It all depends on how crazy you want to get with the math----I've heard guys run 2 ounces premix per gallon, which is about an 80:1 ratio.

There are 64 ounces in a gallon, you'd ideally want 1.5 ounces per gallon of fuel.

You'll be using quite a bit of premix......to keep costs down, you can get it by the gallon at Walmart in the boating/rv section. I forget the brand (yellow jug, maybe pennzoil?), but it's 2 stroke ashless synthetic.

bryant 12-16-06 07:13 PM

idemitsu racing premix rotary fuel lube 1/2 oz. per 1 gallon of gasoline.
mazdatrix.

Eggie 12-16-06 07:39 PM


Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
There are 64 ounces in a gallon...

No, it's 128 ounces per gallon.

GoodfellaFD3S 12-16-06 07:42 PM


Originally Posted by Eggie
No, it's 128 ounces per gallon.

Damn, you're right. That's what I get for going off memory.

In that case he'd probably be ok going with 1 oz per gallon, it wouldn't hurt to add a bit more.

KX500FD 12-16-06 07:54 PM

I run 1 oz/gal (or 128:1) with Idemitsu pre-mix (no OMP)

only way to fly imo

KX500FD 12-16-06 07:59 PM


Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
to keep costs down, you can get it by the gallon at Walmart in the boating/rv section. I forget the brand (yellow jug, maybe pennzoil?), but it's 2 stroke ashless synthetic.

I tried different types of Amsoil synthetic 2 stroke and fouled my plugs within a couple hundred miles...just fyi

SRGT-7 12-16-06 08:07 PM

marvel i use just dump full bottle replace every two fill ups

KX500FD 12-16-06 08:35 PM

that's primarily a detergent, not a pre-mix (or I wouldn't use it that way)

GoodfellaFD3S 12-17-06 01:41 AM


Originally Posted by SRGT-7
marvel i use just dump full bottle replace every two fill ups

Yup, mmo is a cleaner, not a lube. If you're using it as premix without an omp, you're headed for trouble in my opinion.

Football22 12-17-06 01:43 AM

Can someone please explain this mixture idea to me? I am new to FD's/rx-7s and didn't realise that you should mix your fuel with oil.

13bmaniac 12-17-06 02:08 AM

you can also use protek r from pettit specially designed for premix and wont foul your plugs

KX500FD 12-17-06 02:38 AM


Originally Posted by Football22
Can someone please explain this mixture idea to me? I am new to FD's/rx-7s and didn't realise that you should mix your fuel with oil.

the rotary requires a small amount of oil in the gas to lubricate the apex and side seals, and the OMP is the factory "solution"; however, 4 stroke oil is not designed to burn, it leaves deposits, and it's a poor alternative imo

of course, Mazda is never going to sell a factory car where the owner is instructed to pre-mix the gas, they would be laughed at, because it's "inconvenient", "messy" etc....but that's exactly what you should do...or use a separate pump and reservoir to inject the proper oil, which in my opinion is Idemitsu rotary pre-mix

Football22 12-17-06 03:51 AM

I am very familiar with dirtbikes as that is my other past time. So I can pretty much use the same mix for my car as I could use for my dirtbike except for mix ratios as my dirtbike would normally use 50:1 instead of a 90:1 or so.

GoodfellaFD3S 12-17-06 10:19 AM


Originally Posted by 13bmaniac
you can also use protek r from pettit specially designed for premix and wont foul your plugs

I've been told by numerous high-profile rotary guys over the years that protek r is just your normal synthetic 2 stroke oil and is also vastly overpriced.

I have been using idemitsu premix (bought from www.rx7.com) for a while now.

KX500FD 12-17-06 10:51 AM


Originally Posted by Football22
I am very familiar with dirtbikes as that is my other past time. So I can pretty much use the same mix for my car as I could use for my dirtbike except for mix ratios as my dirtbike would normally use 50:1 instead of a 90:1 or so.

but this isn't a two stroke

ever ridden an almighty KX500? if you haven't, you need to experience it :)

nashman69g 12-17-06 11:33 AM

u should follow the containers ratio chart as I found that different brands require different amounts of premix. For instance: I use Castrol and it requires 1.3 oz per gal for 100:1 ratio. 100:1 is good for normal street driving. When I want to run her hard I go 50:1.

Marshall

vtakk eg 12-17-06 11:50 AM

i thought you only premix if you remove the oil metering pump?.......is this not true
or should i be premixing

alexdimen 12-17-06 12:16 PM

Marvel Mystery Oil is bullshit as far as pre-mix goes. That high priced, re-badged crap is probably bullshit too. Any good TCW-3 is fine...


Originally Posted by vtakk eg
i thought you only premix if you remove the oil metering pump?.......is this not true
or should i be premixing

You only need to pre-mix if you remove the pump (which requires an aftermarket ECU). Pre-mixing a moderate amount on top of the OMP is also commonly practiced as supplementary lubrication. The supposed benefits of doing this range from cleaner internals (despite 4 cycle oil being used too) to increased seal longevity.

I am not aware of any studies to prove this, but the aviation guys believe in using 2-cycle oils and they bet their lives on those engines. Good enough for me :)

alexdimen 12-17-06 12:21 PM


Originally Posted by nashman69g
u should follow the containers ratio chart as I found that different brands require different amounts of premix. For instance: I use Castrol and it requires 1.3 oz per gal for 100:1 ratio. 100:1 is good for normal street driving. When I want to run her hard I go 50:1.

Marshall

A ratio is a ratio... a brand name does not change how many ounces are in a gallon.

128 ounces / 1.3 ounces = ~ 100 : 1

^no matter what brand it is

Perhaps you are under the impression that 1:100 is 1 ounce per gallon, as many people mistakenly say on this forum.

BLitzed33 12-17-06 12:32 PM


Originally Posted by KX500FD
I tried different types of Amsoil synthetic 2 stroke and fouled my plugs within a couple hundred miles...just fyi

Funny, I had the exact opposite in my case...Idemitsu fouled my plugs really quick and left some funny looking deposits on my plugs, I switched to AMSOIL saber professional premix and havent had any issues with fouled plugs.

nashman69g 12-17-06 12:37 PM


Originally Posted by alexdimen
A ratio is a ratio... a brand name does not change how many ounces are in a gallon.

128 ounces / 1.3 ounces = ~ 100 : 1

^no matter what brand it is

Perhaps you are under the impression that 1:100 is 1 ounce per gallon, as many people mistakenly say on this forum.

I'm aware of this. What I'm just saying is to follow the ratio chart on the container for the brand's mixture ratio.

GOTBANNED? 12-17-06 12:38 PM

Ive been told my Roger Manideville 16oz for a fill up. If it's good for Roger than it's good for me

vtakk eg 12-17-06 04:24 PM


Originally Posted by alexdimen
Marvel Mystery Oil is bullshit as far as pre-mix goes. That high priced, re-badged crap is probably bullshit too. Any good TCW-3 is fine...



You only need to pre-mix if you remove the pump (which requires an aftermarket ECU). Pre-mixing a moderate amount on top of the OMP is also commonly practiced as supplementary lubrication. The supposed benefits of doing this range from cleaner internals (despite 4 cycle oil being used too) to increased seal longevity.

I am not aware of any studies to prove this, but the aviation guys believe in using 2-cycle oils and they bet their lives on those engines. Good enough for me :)

so how much should i use since i still have my OMP, also where to get it and what kind ?
and could i do it sometimes and not others, or if i start do i have to contine

thanks

DigDug 12-17-06 06:03 PM

Wow, I didn't realize there were so many variants of Amsoil 2-stroke oil. Are there any that are preferrable, or better yet, any that should be avoided for our use? I see an "HP Injector" one that is TCW-3, but the "Saber" one is JASO FD and a couple other things, and does not list TCW-3.

Les 12-17-06 06:04 PM

Has anyone heard that too much oil blowing by the engine in 4 cycle cars can effect the catalytic converter? I heard on the radio that engine manufacturers are recommending thinner oils because they will eventually have to guarantee the converters for 10 years and this effects it? I know thinner oils help with milage also. But that has kept me from putting too much oil in as a pre mix. It makes sense that the more crap coming off the engine, if not burned completely will effect the converter. My car is stock expect for the DP and I don't want to have to replace the converter. I don't trust the OEM arrangement by itself.

BLitzed33 12-17-06 06:35 PM


Originally Posted by DigDug
Wow, I didn't realize there were so many variants of Amsoil 2-stroke oil. Are there any that are preferrable, or better yet, any that should be avoided for our use? I see an "HP Injector" one that is TCW-3, but the "Saber" one is JASO FD and a couple other things, and does not list TCW-3.

I use the Amsoil saber professional...it exceeds tcw3 according to my amsoil dealer and he called in to make sure it was the best suited for rotaries. Ray wilson at pfsupercars uses the same stuff on customers cars when he tunes them.

Kento 12-17-06 08:30 PM


Originally Posted by alexdimen
A ratio is a ratio... a brand name does not change how many ounces are in a gallon.

Negative. Premix-specific oils are not all the same, just as various motor oils are not the same. Castor-based oils, various synthetic blends, and even petroleum-based premix oils can have varying degrees of dispersion and suspension in gasoline due to their makeup, which means that the premix ratio for effective performance can vary.

Kento 12-17-06 08:48 PM


Originally Posted by KX500FD
but this isn't a two stroke

In many respects, the Wankel is a two-stroke. Intake and exhaust timing is controlled by port location timing with respect to rotor position, instead of valves/cams. And because there is no oil being splashed onto the housing walls internally, it depends on the intake charge (i.e., intake tract injection or premix) to lubricate the rotor seals...just like a two-stroke. Which is what this thread is all about...

Football22 12-17-06 08:59 PM


Originally Posted by KX500FD
but this isn't a two stroke

ever ridden an almighty KX500? if you haven't, you need to experience it :)

I have never ridden a KX500, I am a 4-stroke guy and ride a YZF450f

gracer7-rx7 12-17-06 09:53 PM


Originally Posted by vtakk eg
so how much should i use since i still have my OMP, also where to get it and what kind ?
and could i do it sometimes and not others, or if i start do i have to contine

thanks


If you still have your OMP and its working fine, don't worry about pre-mixing. Some people say it will help the engine run smoother to have some extra pre-mixed oil in the fuel and keep the internals more lubed (with the extra oil coming in via the fuel injectors as well as the oil injectors) but you really don't need it for a regular street driven car if the OMP is working fine.

Assuming the OMP is working, the only time I'd consider using pre-mix on a street car running a cat would be if i were doing a track day where I know I'm going to beat the piss out of the car ALL DAY LONG.

Do a search and educate yourself. There are a lot of good threads out there with info on this subject.

Mr rx-7 tt 12-17-06 10:08 PM

You have to remember the OMP was designed for a stock rotary engine and meters accordingly. A 255 hp engine makes a lot less heat and friction than a 450 hp engine. Heat relaxes apex seal springs and wears down rotor seals, rotor housings, etc.. Adding a little two cycle oil even in an OMP car is not a bad idea, just remember to use less than a non OMP car.

KX500FD 12-17-06 10:33 PM


Originally Posted by Kento
In many respects, the Wankel is a two-stroke. Intake and exhaust timing is controlled by port location timing with respect to rotor position, instead of valves/cams. And because there is no oil being splashed onto the housing walls internally, it depends on the intake charge (i.e., intake tract injection or premix) to lubricate the rotor seals...just like a two-stroke. Which is what this thread is all about...

good point, kk....but I've had bad luck with two stroke oils fouling my plugs, perhaps I need to try this saber stuff, although the Idemitsu seems to work fine

vtakk eg 12-17-06 10:40 PM

well the reason i want to do some premix, is because i have a slight oil leak and someone told me ots a slight posibility its my omp, or lines or something like that but he is coming up to fix it in a week so i figured id premix untill i knew for sure

so how much premix should i use, could i use to much if my omp is working proporly?
also brand and dealer recomendation

thank you all for the info and knowlege

DigDug 12-17-06 10:46 PM


Originally Posted by Mr rx-7 tt
Adding a little two cycle oil even in an OMP car is not a bad idea, just remember to use less than a non OMP car.


How much less is appropriate? I've been searching and see lots of varying ratios - everything from 100:1 to 800:1. I realize the different oils factor in the ratio, but would you just do something like half the recommended ratio for a non-OMP setup?

gracer7-rx7 12-17-06 10:46 PM


Originally Posted by Mr rx-7 tt
You have to remember the OMP was designed for a stock rotary engine and meters accordingly. A 255 hp engine makes a lot less heat and friction than a 450 hp engine. Heat relaxes apex seal springs and wears down rotor seals, rotor housings, etc.. Adding a little two cycle oil even in an OMP car is not a bad idea, just remember to use less than a non OMP car.


Definitely agree with you on that.

GoodfellaFD3S 12-17-06 10:49 PM


Originally Posted by DigDug
How much less is appropriate? I've been searching and see lots of varying ratios - everything from 100:1 to 800:1. I realize the different oils factor in the ratio, but would you just do something like half the recommended ratio for a non-OMP setup?

Non-omp setup, as in---your car has no omp? That question has already been answered, approx 100:1.

DigDug 12-17-06 11:04 PM


Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
Non-omp setup, as in---your car has no omp? That question has already been answered, approx 100:1.


No, I mean with a working OMP, how would you derive an appropriate ratio relative to what is recommended for a non-OMP setup.

I see that Royal Purple recommends 200-800:1 ratio for an OMP setup versus 150-600:1 for non-OMP. So they recommend one-third less oil for a working OMP setup, compared to what they recommend for a setup with no OMP.

BuckyFD3 12-18-06 06:08 AM

What ratio do people use when running in an engine?? I was running 100:1 but went to 200:1 and the engine seems to be building compression better.

DigDug 12-18-06 01:03 PM

Assuming no cat, what's the downside to running too much premix? Aside from throwing money away, that is. Does the excess just blow out the exhaust? Or can this leave deposits or have other ill effects? I read about people fouling plugs with this stuff - that seems like an obvious one.

I've read so many threads on premix that my head hurts. The ratios I'm seeing are all over the map, especially with an OMP. Some people say 4-6oz per tank, others say 16oz per tank, others 100:1, still others 200:1, and I've even seen 320:1 and 450:1. I'm wondering how people arrive at these numbers. Is this trial-and-error or blind guessing?

goz 12-18-06 08:05 PM

just wondering where the oil metre pump is and would it if broke prevent the car starting?my rex is wreckin my head ...thanks guys

DriftTrix 12-18-06 10:04 PM

If only we could talk to the original designers of the 13B-REW...... :us4allswi

GooRoo 12-20-06 09:03 PM


Originally Posted by DigDug
Assuming no cat, what's the downside to running too much premix? Aside from throwing money away, that is. Does the excess just blow out the exhaust? Or can this leave deposits or have other ill effects? I read about people fouling plugs with this stuff - that seems like an obvious one.

I've read so many threads on premix that my head hurts. The ratios I'm seeing are all over the map, especially with an OMP. Some people say 4-6oz per tank, others say 16oz per tank, others 100:1, still others 200:1, and I've even seen 320:1 and 450:1. I'm wondering how people arrive at these numbers. Is this trial-and-error or blind guessing?

Hey, there's only 2 downsides that I can think of to running too much pre-mix:

1) You're adding more oil to be burned, so presumably there will be more ash/deposits left over from burning it. If you get a good clean-burning oil then this shouldn't be a major issue
2) The pre-mix you're putting in displaces gas in the combustion chamber. If you went way overboard and put in 4 oz per gallon you've now displaced a little over 3% of your gas with oil, and the oil certainly doesn't have the same heat carrying capacity, so you've increased your chance to knock a little bit. Also not a huge deal, just don't run a ton of pre-mix and the effect should be negligible.

I keep it simple and so far it's worked well for me (information learned from Damian, who learned it from Foko):

Cars with an OMP:
Normal driving 1 oz per 4 gallons of gas, so about 512:1
Track use 1 oz per 2 gallons of gas, 256:1

Cars without a OMP:
Normal driving 1 oz per 2 gallons of gas, 256:1
Track use 1 oz per 1 gallon of gas, 128:1

Other notes:
1) I always put the pre-mix in before I top off the tank. I think the tumbling effect makes it disperse better in the tank. Alternatively you can shake the car a bit on the way out of the gas station to mix it up.
2) I use Red-Line 2 stroke.
3) For hard core track use I always error on the high side when measuring.
4) I use those graduated water bottles to measure the amount we're putting in. Alternatively you can get a bunch of 4 oz bottles, fill them up and carry them around with you, it's pretty easy to eyeball something that small fairly accurately

I've heard from multiple engine builders over time that the most important thing a owner can do to keep their rotary running well (outside of normal maintenance) over time is to consistently pre-mix. I wouldn't run any car without it.

hybridphil 12-25-06 05:01 PM

I think people are worrying way too much about how much to pre-mix. The domain of allowable 2-stroke oil where the the end points are too much pre-mix and not enough is fairly large and there is a lot of room for error in measurement. I just randomly started premixing a few months ago after noticing that my OMP lines were clear. I haven't yet checked if my OMP is working correctly but I pour in about 4-6 oz of 2 stroke oil for every 20 L of gas I put in. I haven't had a problem. This is between 1:120 and 1:180. Give or take within reason and there's nothing to worry about.

muibubbles 05-28-10 05:58 PM


Originally Posted by GooRoo (Post 6442347)
Hey, there's only 2 downsides that I can think of to running too much pre-mix:

1) You're adding more oil to be burned, so presumably there will be more ash/deposits left over from burning it. If you get a good clean-burning oil then this shouldn't be a major issue
2) The pre-mix you're putting in displaces gas in the combustion chamber. If you went way overboard and put in 4 oz per gallon you've now displaced a little over 3% of your gas with oil, and the oil certainly doesn't have the same heat carrying capacity, so you've increased your chance to knock a little bit. Also not a huge deal, just don't run a ton of pre-mix and the effect should be negligible.

I keep it simple and so far it's worked well for me (information learned from Damian, who learned it from Foko):

Cars with an OMP:
Normal driving 1 oz per 4 gallons of gas, so about 512:1
Track use 1 oz per 2 gallons of gas, 256:1

Cars without a OMP:
Normal driving 1 oz per 2 gallons of gas, 256:1
Track use 1 oz per 1 gallon of gas, 128:1

Other notes:
1) I always put the pre-mix in before I top off the tank. I think the tumbling effect makes it disperse better in the tank. Alternatively you can shake the car a bit on the way out of the gas station to mix it up.
2) I use Red-Line 2 stroke.
3) For hard core track use I always error on the high side when measuring.
4) I use those graduated water bottles to measure the amount we're putting in. Alternatively you can get a bunch of 4 oz bottles, fill them up and carry them around with you, it's pretty easy to eyeball something that small fairly accurately

I've heard from multiple engine builders over time that the most important thing a owner can do to keep their rotary running well (outside of normal maintenance) over time is to consistently pre-mix. I wouldn't run any car without it.

info sounds pretty good to me...

only thing id like to add is that too much premix IS bad. i believe it causes you to run lean... i live like 2 miles from the gas station and i got lazy on a 1/4 tank of gas i filled i put in my premix and drove to the gas station... for the first 1/4 mile the cars AFR were insanelyyyy high. then out of no where it cleared up a bit... my theory was the engine injested too much premix which caused the high afr but once it mixed it cleared up... just my opinion...

1QWIK7 07-11-10 09:16 AM


Originally Posted by GooRoo (Post 6442347)
Hey, there's only 2 downsides that I can think of to running too much pre-mix:

1) You're adding more oil to be burned, so presumably there will be more ash/deposits left over from burning it. If you get a good clean-burning oil then this shouldn't be a major issue
2) The pre-mix you're putting in displaces gas in the combustion chamber. If you went way overboard and put in 4 oz per gallon you've now displaced a little over 3% of your gas with oil, and the oil certainly doesn't have the same heat carrying capacity, so you've increased your chance to knock a little bit. Also not a huge deal, just don't run a ton of pre-mix and the effect should be negligible.

I keep it simple and so far it's worked well for me (information learned from Damian, who learned it from Foko):

Cars with an OMP:
Normal driving 1 oz per 4 gallons of gas, so about 512:1
Track use 1 oz per 2 gallons of gas, 256:1

Cars without a OMP:
Normal driving 1 oz per 2 gallons of gas, 256:1
Track use 1 oz per 1 gallon of gas, 128:1

Other notes:
1) I always put the pre-mix in before I top off the tank. I think the tumbling effect makes it disperse better in the tank. Alternatively you can shake the car a bit on the way out of the gas station to mix it up.
2) I use Red-Line 2 stroke.
3) For hard core track use I always error on the high side when measuring.
4) I use those graduated water bottles to measure the amount we're putting in. Alternatively you can get a bunch of 4 oz bottles, fill them up and carry them around with you, it's pretty easy to eyeball something that small fairly accurately

I've heard from multiple engine builders over time that the most important thing a owner can do to keep their rotary running well (outside of normal maintenance) over time is to consistently pre-mix. I wouldn't run any car without it.


Good info. I have a working OMP and i've been doing 1/2oz per gallon for about 2 weeks now (2 fuel fillups).

Will turn it down to 1/2 oz per 2 gallons from now on since i mostly drive on the street.

Btw, i use a protein shaker cup for my liquid measurement lol

7fanatic 09-19-10 01:34 PM

is it a requirement to get an aftermarket ECU when removing the oil metering pump? because i dont have that kind of money...and i need to run premix (this is for an FC not an FD)

86rx7mtrcr 02-28-11 07:37 PM

I've heard that there are different ratios depending on the model yr and everything. Is this true? If so I have a 83 gsl but I believe the engine is from a repu not sure of the yr tho

Rotorhead34 03-08-11 11:51 AM

Ok Question!!

2 Stroke pre mix and all is great, however, the OMP doesn't pump 2 stroke oil, it pump 4 stroke lubricating oil. Dont you think the properties are different.

I removed my OMP because I think it was pumping too much and at low idle or speeds it would start to build up and smoke like a freight train. I removed it and that went away.

I used 2 stroke oil with my break in when I changed the factory motor to my turbo charged monster presently. But I was wandering about mixing 4 stroke oil since that is what injected anyway. Also, a really knowledgeable individual that is all over the forum runs this in his car and its immaculant. Every one should know the car, but for privacy sake of something he said to me once, I wont say who it is.

Rotorhead34 03-08-11 01:12 PM


Originally Posted by gmonsen (Post 10506755)
Rotorhead34... If I understand that you have a) disconnected your OMP and b) that you are not adding pre-mix directly to you gas tank, you will damage your motor quite a bit sooner than necessary. You should start using pre-mix today and hopefully there's been no damage done already. Good luck.

And, yes, the properties of 4 and 2 stroke oil are different. Two stroke will burn a lot cleaner. However, as someone said here (years ago?), Mazda couldn't very well have made the car where the owner actually HAD to add oil to each gas fill-up, right....? So, they had to use 4 stroke oil in the OMP.

Gordon

Not saying I dont run premix, I just recently removed the OMP. Just saying about the lubricating properties and what the engine normally burns.


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