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Originally posted by CCarlisi I don't doubt that adding an ignition amp places more stress on the coils. However, Matt seems to be saying that the combination of the HKS system AND an upgraded ground system is the cause of his coil failure. I suspect that his coils would have failed regardless of whether he had a ground strap system or not. Or, at the very least, weak coils will fail if used with an ignition amp and ground strap system. A couple people seem to be saying that the HKS and MSD systems perform the same function. I was under the impression that the HKS system increases the duration of the spark discharge as well as the intensity/amplitude, whereas the MSD amplifiers only does the later. Yes, no, maybe? This is off the HKS site: "The Twin Power ignition amplifier incorporates both the CDI and transistor method ignition to provide optimum spark duration and maximum voltage output, resulting in crisper throttle response and a smoother engine power band. The CDI method, capacity discharge ignition, provides maximum voltage by transferring all stored energy in the capacitor to the ignition coil so that the ignition current can buildup quickly, thus making the Twin Power very effective in the higher revs where a normal spark would tend to diminish. This strong rapid spark prevents the high rpm ignition miss that reduces peak power. The transistorized method generates high voltage by using transistors to cut off current to the coil, thus allowing for a long energy discharge. This longer spark duration allows the Twin Power to improve lower RPM throttle response and torque. The combination of the CDI and the transistor method incorporates two distinct systems into one high performance unit, hence the designation of Twin Power. The Twin Power produces a spark output that is typically 1.5-2.5 stronger than of the stock ignition system and consumes about 35% less power input than other ignition amplifiers. Each compact and attractive Twin power unit is constructed of durable anodized aluminum and sealed to prevent corrosion from moisture. General wiring harnesses are included in each unit to aid in installation and mounting. Vehicle Specific wiring harnesses are also available for certain models to further aid in installations that require intricate integration.(CARB E.O. # D-186-22)" In any case, I yanked the HKS, installed new NGK Iridiums (not HKS), and have had zero problems. My brother, Mr. RX-7 TT, says the stock ignition is good for 400 RWHP (so at about 380 + having a good grounding wire kit installed, I'm still OK). If/when I go to a single turbo, I'll put the HKS back on - just don't need it now as I'm getting enough spark (no break-up). See ya, -Matt |
HKS Install
Sweet! I want Zavier to install mine like this :)
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Originally posted by Yellow R1 Yes, correct. The combination of the grounding wire set + the HKS ignition created too strong a spark for my HKS Iridium plugs In any case, I yanked the HKS, installed new NGK Iridiums (not HKS), and have had zero problems. My brother, Mr. RX-7 TT, says the stock ignition is good for 400 RWHP (so at about 380 + having a good grounding wire kit installed, I'm still OK). At 13psi the chart was nice a smooth. At 14 it started to get rough at high rpms. My car produced about 320hp at 14psi-or 80hp less than your brother's threashold. The tuners that I have spoken to about ignition upgrades wouldn't dream of tuning a car to 400rwhp with the stock system. I'm not saying it can't be done, but based on what I've heard I don't think it should be. |
Originally posted by CCarlisi The tuners that I have spoken to about ignition upgrades wouldn't dream of tuning a car to 400rwhp with the stock system. I'm not saying it can't be done, but based on what I've heard I don't think it should be. |
Isnt the reason why people use the HKS twin power instead of the MSD because it would take 2 MSD's to do what one HKS could do? Thats what a guy down at a local ricer shop told me atleast. I may just trust the instincts
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it would take 3 msd, crane etc to fire like the hks.
1 for both leading, and 2 for each seperate trailing coil. Tim |
Originally posted by Tim Benton it would take 3 msd, crane etc to fire like the hks. 1 for both leading, and 2 for each seperate trailing coil. Tim But using just 1 unit, is the msd or crane sufficient? I think so. Can you justify the extra $400 for the hks? I can't. That's why I'm planning on getting an msd6a |
Hmm...well in conjunction to the HKS Twin Pak, the MSD, and the Crane.
What about the B&M New Volt Power Unit? (I could've sworn I saw ErnieT or maybe HedgeHog's car w/ this product) http://www.bmracing.com/products/rac...voltPower.html http://www.rxecret7.com/bmnewvocopou.html Just thought I would add that in the mix, since I see everything else in this thread. |
Originally posted by CCarlisi [B]-I still don't believe the hks is responsible for this unless the unit is not functioning properly. You mentioned you fried your plugs AND the plug wires??? [B] -I think you're changing too many things at once. I think you need to do a better job of isolating the cause of your problem before pointing the finger at the hks amp. Having had problems like this with other parts of the car I know that after awhile solving the problem becomes the priority not understanding it:) That sounds optimistic. I had ignition breakup at 14psi with brand new plugs, brand new plug wires and an extensive ground strap system that was built using reference-grade stereo wire and gold connectors. Steve Kan did countless pulls on the dyno. Other forum members witnessed me installing the plugs and wires at the dyno shop. At 13psi the chart was nice a smooth. At 14 it started to get rough at high rpms. My car produced about 320hp at 14psi-or 80hp less than your brother's threashold. The tuners that I have spoken to about ignition upgrades wouldn't dream of tuning a car to 400rwhp with the stock system. I'm not saying it can't be done, but based on what I've heard I don't think it should be. Additionally, EVERYONE we speak to (that actually KNOWS their shi$ like us & RACES, confirm there is no need for ignition amplification up to 400 RWHP). This has also been confirmed by my own dyno pulls on my 380 RWHP CYM (there is NO break up whatsoever). Last point, the problem (fried the plugs, the wires, and was arcing from the plug to the shock tower) was solved due to: 1) I didn't really need the increased spark, when I pulled the HKS - BINGO - problem gone. 2) I changed the manufacturer of the plugs from HKS to NGK based on what felt was a superior plug (both are Iridium 10s, the NGK's have a better seal & fit than the HKSs). I could not use the "old" plugs for obvious reasons. 3) I pulled out the "higher performing" MSD wires that had been destroyed & replaced them with stockers - no issues. Its your call if you want to play around with different variables in your engine bay while your car is arcing & can start a serious fire. I opted to return the ignition to stock based on my earlier input that I did not need the aforementioned upgrades. Additionally, I needed my car at Laguna Seca so I could track it (no time to test each sub variable to confirm what I already knew). -Matt |
Originally posted by CCarlisi [B]-I still don't believe the hks is responsible for this unless the unit is not functioning properly. You mentioned you fried your plugs AND the plug wires??? [B] -I think you're changing too many things at once. I think you need to do a better job of isolating the cause of your problem before pointing the finger at the hks amp. Having had problems like this with other parts of the car I know that after awhile solving the problem becomes the priority not understanding it:) That sounds optimistic. I had ignition breakup at 14psi with brand new plugs, brand new plug wires and an extensive ground strap system that was built using reference-grade stereo wire and gold connectors. Steve Kan did countless pulls on the dyno. Other forum members witnessed me installing the plugs and wires at the dyno shop. At 13psi the chart was nice a smooth. At 14 it started to get rough at high rpms. My car produced about 320hp at 14psi-or 80hp less than your brother's threashold. The tuners that I have spoken to about ignition upgrades wouldn't dream of tuning a car to 400rwhp with the stock system. I'm not saying it can't be done, but based on what I've heard I don't think it should be. Additionally, EVERYONE we speak to (that actually KNOWS their shi$ like us & RACES, confirm there is no need for ignition amplification up to 400 RWHP). This has also been confirmed by my own dyno pulls on my 380 RWHP CYM & my brother's (he's pushing a hair more than myself - there is NO break up whatsoever). Last point, the problem (fried the plugs, the wires, and was arcing from the plug to the shock tower) was solved due to: 1) I didn't really need the increased spark, when I pulled the HKS - BINGO - problem gone. 2) I changed the manufacturer of the plugs from HKS to NGK based on what felt was a superior plug (both are Iridium 10s, the NGK's have a better seal & fit than the HKSs). I could not use the "old" plugs for obvious reasons. 3) I pulled out the "higher performing" MSD wires that had been destroyed & replaced them with stockers - no issues. Its your call if you want to play around with different variables in your engine bay while your car is arcing & can start a serious fire. I opted to return the ignition to stock based on my earlier input that I did not need the aforementioned upgrades. Additionally, I needed my car at Laguna Seca so I could track it (no time to test each sub variable to confirm what I already knew). -Matt |
Stock ignition is NOT good to 400 rwhp. Not by a long shot.
Maybe you have a freak car, but most everybody I know is getting breakup with a stock ignition system running 15 psi, maybe 320-330 hp. After changing plugs and wires, I was getting breakup at 18 psi on my BNR turbos. I *might* behitting 400, but I doubt it. Even if you're not getting actual breakup, the car will be much smoother with an amplifier. |
WOW
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Originally posted by cavellm Stock ignition is NOT good to 400 rwhp. Not by a long shot. Maybe you have a freak car, but most everybody I know is getting breakup with a stock ignition system running 15 psi, maybe 320-330 hp. |
Originally posted by cavellm Stock ignition is NOT good to 400 rwhp. Not by a long shot. Maybe you have a freak car, but most everybody I know is getting breakup with a stock ignition system running 15 psi, maybe 320-330 hp. After changing plugs and wires, I was getting breakup at 18 psi on my BNR turbos. I *might* behitting 400, but I doubt it. Even if you're not getting actual breakup, the car will be much smoother with an amplifier. |
Originally posted by CCarlisi [B]-I still don't believe the hks is responsible for this unless the unit is not functioning properly. You mentioned you fried your plugs AND the plug wires??? [B] -I think you're changing too many things at once. I think you need to do a better job of isolating the cause of your problem before pointing the finger at the hks amp. Having had problems like this with other parts of the car I know that after awhile solving the problem becomes the priority not understanding it:) That sounds optimistic. I had ignition breakup at 14psi with brand new plugs, brand new plug wires and an extensive ground strap system that was built using reference-grade stereo wire and gold connectors. Steve Kan did countless pulls on the dyno. Other forum members witnessed me installing the plugs and wires at the dyno shop. At 13psi the chart was nice a smooth. At 14 it started to get rough at high rpms. My car produced about 320hp at 14psi-or 80hp less than your brother's threashold. The tuners that I have spoken to about ignition upgrades wouldn't dream of tuning a car to 400rwhp with the stock system. I'm not saying it can't be done, but based on what I've heard I don't think it should be. Additionally, everyone of our respected counterparts we speak to (that actually KNOWS their shi$ like us & RACES), confirm there is no need for ignition amplification up to 400 RWHP). This has also been confirmed by my own dyno pulls on my 380 RWHP CYM & my brother's (he's pushing a hair more than myself - there is NO break up whatsoever). Last point, the problem (fried the plugs, the wires, and was arcing from the plug to the shock tower) was solved PRIMARILY due to changing the plugs (mine must have been bad after only 5k miles). 1) I didn't really need the increased spark, when I pulled the HKS - BINGO - problem gone. 2) I changed the manufacturer of the plugs from HKS to NGK based on what felt was a superior plug (both are Iridium 10s, the NGK's have a better seal & fit than the HKSs). I could not use the "old" plugs for obvious reasons. 3) I pulled out the "higher performing" MSD wires that had been destroyed & replaced them with stockers - no issues. Its your call if you want to play around with different variables in your engine bay while your car is arcing & can start a serious fire. I opted to return the ignition to stock based on my earlier input that I did not need the aforementioned upgrades. Additionally, I needed my car at Laguna Seca so I could track it (no time to test each sub variable to confirm what I already knew). -Matt |
Originally posted by Detbyron "to fire like the hks" But using just 1 unit, is the msd or crane sufficient? I think so. Can you justify the extra $400 for the hks? I can't. That's why I'm planning on getting an msd6a you won't spend 400 more than the msd unit when you buy the hks. The HKS unit is around 420 or so (what I paid atleast) and the MSD6a is what 120? 300 more not 400 more:) As far as Matt (Yellow R1) is concerned, it's great your brother knows alot about rotaries, but just read this thread from the start and see how many people state that it fixed their ignition break up even at 14psi making 330 rwhp. Dude, there's alot of people who's stock ignition with new plugs and wires can't cut it at 14psi. I'm one of them as well that experienced break up at lower rwhp and lower psi with new plugs and wires on the car. So no, in my car and many others on this thread, the stock ignition IS NOT good for 400 rwhp without experiencing break up in the higher rpms. Tim |
If I get pissed enough about it, I'll buy an msd6a and dyno it, along with the hks unit, same day, no changes other than the ignition amp and see how the dyno curve looks. That'll be enough for people to judge if there's any difference and if the extra money was worth it. Then no amp on the car and see the break up at the top end with a car that made 363 at 14.22 psi.
Tim |
1)The problem with Yellow R1's HKS combo was his older plugs as well as the plug wires.
2) The stock system is good for 400 rwhp IF the system is in perfect working order. I have seen 423 rwhp. (I wouldn't recommend this though). There are six cars in the area with the stock ignition systems running 360 plus rwhp, glass smooth on the dyno. If you are getting break up it is ususlly due to a weak coil, bad wires, plugs etc. The HKS and other hi po systems will cover those symptoms up...I guess we have all the good cars with the special stock inition systems out here.:D |
Originally posted by Tim Benton with a car that made 363 at 14.22 psi. Tim |
A friend of mine was still getting breakup at high RPMS WITH his HKS after changing his plugs.
At a shop here in town they mentioned that if was a poor ground to the full pump ala something similar to cavellm's problems.... They put a new ground wire in (I have no idea exactly where) and the break up disappeared on the dyno |
Why do you gotta throw a wrench in the works LOL :)
Originally posted by 7racer A friend of mine was still getting breakup at high RPMS WITH his HKS after changing his plugs. At a shop here in town they mentioned that if was a poor ground to the full pump ala something similar to cavellm's problems.... They put a new ground wire in (I have no idea exactly where) and the break up disappeared on the dyno |
Was it running lean?
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use the B&R or something the hot rodding company that also makes short shiters, theirs are used back in japan too, and i bet it's cheaper than hks. and they do make ign amp
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Originally posted by CCarlisi Was it running lean? |
Originally posted by SleepR1 Why do you gotta throw a wrench in the works LOL :) lol sorry Manny, I don't know if this applies to everyone or why the hell it works...but it seems like this rotary shop had experienced similar things before and knew EXACTLY how to troubleshoot it. While on the dyno tune, he stopped it, put the ground wire back on...then put it back on the dyno and all was well. |
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