help choosing a turbo for custom twin setup!
Hia guys, I'm going to be doing a custom sequential turbo set up on the new engine being built. basicaly what I am planning on doing is replacing the secondry turbo for a larger one, but the thing is... what shall I use??
I want to keep the sequential setup as I love the power delivery & drivability, but I would like a little more go at the top end. So my question to you guys is: what turbo to use? Don't want to go too massive, but again, don't want to choke the cars performance! I was looking towards the TD05 from the Mitsubishi evo as they are a strong reliable turbos and easy to come across, but some people say the hot side of the blower would choke the engine? Running the TD05 as a single I would agree, but as a second would it not be about right?? Anyway, advice & guidance is welcome. Cheers Jono P.S. I know there will be fabrication work to be done & it's going to be time consuming to make it.... but this is all part of the challenge to me ;) |
The problem you are going to run into is the cast iron manifold. Easier and cheaper to go with the bnr twins.
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I'm going to be fabricating my own manifold in stainless pipe, so no probs there ;) just the Turbo is my problem. Plus I can't aford to by aftermarket twins :( on a tight budget as I have just bought a house & I like to do things myself...... just to proove the doubters wrong ;) LOL
Fabrication work for IC & turbo pipe set up: http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...X/SP_A0539.jpg |
I'd probably go w/ twi GT25's or GT28's.
You get THAT to work on a high-flow tubular manifold, gimme a call. |
Originally Posted by ptrhahn
(Post 9781240)
I'd probably go w/ twi GT25's or GT28's.
You get THAT to work on a high-flow tubular manifold, gimme a call. |
realy looking for something from a mass marketed vehicle as there will be plenty of them around at respectable money, hence why I was looking at the evo's TD05
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Originally Posted by jonofd3
Plus I can't aford to by aftermarket twins
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/15-000-miles-twin-t04s-daily-driver-450719/ https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-rx-7-1993-2002-parts-99/howard-colemans-twin-to4-turbosytem-507-sae-%40-20-psi-866035/ https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/twin-gt28r-turbo-kit-pics-387757/ |
I'm going to be fabricating my own manifold in stainless pipe, so no probs there |
On the contrery my good friends, The manifold will cost me about £20 in materials, then it is just my time to make the manifold up. I will be doing all the work myself so there will be very little cost in sorting it all out, just time! As to how the sequential system works... yep I understand that well, which is why I have a spair manifold that I will be taking the prespool and turbo control system out & fitting it in to a Stainless tubular manifold set up ;)
Jono |
My guess is you'll post here a couple more times and then we'll never hear about it again.
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Nop, I'll be around for as long as I have the car ;) I'm always up for getting more knowlage about the old rotary workings & tuning!
but it would be nice to have a few more turbo sujestions :nod: LOL At the end of the day, if we all whent down the same route.... how boaring would life be?? I had a load of people telling me not to bother doing the custom turbo pipework from the turbos, but I did and the benafits were huge, even with a massively oversized IC which would aparantly destroy spool up time, but I'm now hitting full boost about 600rpm sooner than people using the mazda system. So it pays to experiment, even if sometimes you don't get the benafits you had hoped for ;) Jono |
I have wanted to do this too, garret seems like they support sequential mabye you could work something out with them but i agree, the manifold would probably have to be machined out of a block of iron or cast.
k04 from the VW/audis |
The pioneers are easy to spot in a crowd. They are usually the ones with all of the arrows in their backs. I too, have been out in front doing what alot of people said couldn`t be done. If you are creative enough & have the patience, should be an interesting endeavor. I wish you well on your project & hope that you are successful! Keep us posted. :)
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mabye you could make an adapter plate and use the stock manifold?
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Think the stock manifold will be too restrictive?? a nice tubular stainless manifold on the other hand would work well ;)
I'm not realy worried about mounting the turbos in the stock position..... Primary would have to stay roughly where it is, but the second can sit above it, or in the same position as a single turbo mod, so space for pipework shouldn't be too big a problem ;) Jono |
Find the thread on the supra forums about the SP (Sound Performance) Sequential Supra.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBn7hivnePU Good luck doing this on the cheap. |
There is a thread in the Single Turbo section about how to size a turbo. Do the math and try and find a part of turbos available on OEM cars that fit the math.
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ive had a hard time finding out how the supra twins work but they dont seem to be truly sequential from what i can find.
it seems like 3 cylinders run each turbo in the same fashion a v6 twin turbo would, compared to the rx7 were both rotors can spool up the first turbo. http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1165429968 http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1165429926 |
See, what you got here is a buncha old timers that seen this play out about a dozen times telling him, "it cant be done" and a buncha rookies what dont know dicks from elbows telling him to, "go for it."
Somebody get Howard in here. He'll set the record straight. It's not impossible. It's just impossible for you. You dont have the room, the technology, the machine shop, or the bankroll. Thats it. |
but if you had the bank roll, go for it
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Originally Posted by Sideo
(Post 9783219)
ive had a hard time finding out how the supra twins work but they dont seem to be truly sequential from what i can find.
it seems like 3 cylinders run each turbo in the same fashion a v6 twin turbo would, compared to the rx7 were both rotors can spool up the first turbo. http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost...em_diagram.gif SP sequential http://spracingonline.com/upload/fil...pseqcoated.jpg Link I really don't mean to be offensive, but it's my humble opinion that you're out of your league. |
Originally Posted by Narfle
(Post 9783612)
See, what you got here is a buncha old timers that seen this play out about a dozen times telling him, "it cant be done" and a buncha rookies what dont know dicks from elbows telling him to, "go for it."
Somebody get Howard in here. He'll set the record straight. It's not impossible. It's just impossible for you. You dont have the room, the technology, the machine shop, or the bankroll. Thats it. As far as you know I could be an ecentric millionair, who has his own machine shop & doesn't give a flying fuck how it comes together aslong as it works! And as for the old timers.... they are the ones who ask people like me... how do you work the DVD player, what's the difference between high def TV and normal satalite...... blah blah blah! You get the point? It's going to be done, It's going to work, it's gonna cost me a few hundred pounds, and alot of people are going to be shocked & congratulate me on getting it to work against the so called odds!! all I need to work out is what turbo to put in to the system! Come on us "ROOKIES" lets show the "old timers" what lives next to your dicks, and what a decent set of balls can help you achive!! J |
Originally Posted by jonofd3
(Post 9784486)
As far as you know I could be an ecentric millionair
Originally Posted by jonofd3
(Post 9784486)
Plus I can't aford to by aftermarket twins on a tight budget
Originally Posted by jonofd3
(Post 9784486)
looking for something from a mass marketed vehicle as there will be plenty of them around at respectable money
Originally Posted by jonofd3
(Post 9784486)
I have a spair manifold that I will be taking the prespool and turbo control system out & fitting it in to a Stainless tubular manifold set up
Originally Posted by jonofd3
(Post 9784486)
Primary would have to stay roughly where it is
Originally Posted by jonofd3
(Post 9784486)
it's gonna cost me a few hundred pounds
Originally Posted by jonofd3
(Post 9784486)
space for pipework shouldn't be too big a problem
You said:
Originally Posted by jonofd3
(Post 9784486)
I want to keep the sequential setup as I love the power delivery & drivability, but I would like a little more go at the top end. So my question to you guys is: what turbo to use?
Originally Posted by smart people
BNR's
1)this will never get off the ground and 2)you want BNR's |
Don't go sequential or twin, they both fail.
Mazda never caught on to the twin stuff and most RE-W's died at about 85k. Convert to a single and own |
I know that the BNR set up is a great one, but I cant justify spending £600 on a second hand set, when I can make something for less than half the price & make more power. it's just the case of working out what turbo I need to invest in. The way I see it... why follow the trend like a lost sheep, when you can experiment & come up with something different?
The thing that pissed me of most was the fact you used: "it cant be done" and a buncha rookies what dont know dicks from elbows granted my spelling isn't that hot, but that doesn't have any reflection on my knowlage & abilities! A bit of an extreme example: stephen hawkings.... a vegitable, paralised & unable to comunicate, but would you say he is thick & useless?? No, he is one of the best minds in the world! Also I wouldn't be shouting too loudly about spelling, when your grammer that bad!! "buncha" surley that should be "bunch of" and "what don't" mmmmm, could that be that don't?? LOL don't forget my young friend, you are only 25 yourself ;) Anyway, I'm going to go now... I'll show my face once the project is all finished & working, just to show you all sorts of things can be achieved when you put your mind to it!! |
Originally Posted by jonofd3
(Post 9782635)
Nop, I'll be around for as long as I have the car ;) I'm always up for getting more knowlage about the old rotary workings & tuning!
but it would be nice to have a few more turbo sujestions :nod: LOL At the end of the day, if we all whent down the same route.... how boaring would life be?? I had a load of people telling me not to bother doing the custom turbo pipework from the turbos, but I did and the benafits were huge, even with a massively oversized IC which would aparantly destroy spool up time, but I'm now hitting full boost about 600rpm sooner than people using the mazda system. So it pays to experiment, even if sometimes you don't get the benafits you had hoped for ;) Jono Good luck with the project. Do understand the others here - people come in constantly saying "I'll build a 4 rotor" and "I'll make my own twin turbo setup" and "I'll drop in a 6 speed - should be easy". We never hear from those folks again. Dave |
Originally Posted by jonofd3
(Post 9784486)
Things like this wind me up.... You don't know me, you don't know what I do for a business & don't know what I am capable of doing!
As far as you know I could be an ecentric millionair, who has his own machine shop & doesn't give a flying fuck how it comes together aslong as it works! And as for the old timers.... they are the ones who ask people like me... how do you work the DVD player, what's the difference between high def TV and normal satalite...... blah blah blah! You get the point? It's going to be done, It's going to work, it's gonna cost me a few hundred pounds, and alot of people are going to be shocked & congratulate me on getting it to work against the so called odds!! all I need to work out is what turbo to put in to the system! Come on us "ROOKIES" lets show the "old timers" what lives next to your dicks, and what a decent set of balls can help you achive!! J |
^ I hate to say it, but I think the only thing the OP is capable of inventing would be a pair of velcro gloves...
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Originally Posted by jonofd3
(Post 9784704)
I know that the BNR set up is a great one, but I cant justify spending £600 on a second hand set, when I can make something for less than half the price & make more power.
If you're such a mechanical whiz kid you shouldn't be asking us to interpret compressor maps for you. But, to answer your original question here are some turbos for your setup *Two GT-25's or GT-28's *Two T-04's *Two shitty ass TD-05 turbos since that's what you heart is set on. Figure out the A/R's for yourself and don't come back without a dyno sheet. |
What about a compound turbo setup? A few people have talked about it but I have yet to see anyone try it. It seems like it would address the same issue of lag, without as much complexity as trying to build a sequential system. What are you looking to spend on a secondary turbo? I would ditch the primary too and go with a similar primary and secondary turbo. Masterpower makes a turbo that is very similar to the T28 but costs less, it has a bit larger turbine wheel exducer.
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Originally Posted by Barban
(Post 9786032)
Dude, no you cant. Just no. Maybe with a single. But, you'll never develope a working set of sequential twins that outperform the BNR's for less cash. Did you look at arghx's link he posted? It's incredible. That's what you're up against. Did you even look at the picture of SP's sequential twins for the supra? That's what you're talking about creating. And, they have so much more room to fool with that we do in the engine bay. You will fail. Or, in the case that you do manage to create something mimicking SP's supra setup for an Rx7 it will cost exactly 1 million dollars. You're not going to get away with duct taping two shitty mitsubishi turbo's to the stock manifold.
I don't know if you don't know how to word things, but from what I read on every single one of your posts is an attack on my ability! you don't know me, you don't know what equipment I have access to....... blah blah blah!! If you think it's not going to work, then that is your opinion, but there is a way to word thing politley with out going on the attack straight away! I garantee a few people are thinking the same as you, but they just say.... I'm not sure you will pull it off, but all the best & good luck trying :) also, have you seen the size of the blowers they are using on the supra? They are fucking huge!! I don't need anything that size! but you are correct, there is no way I would be able to get a pair of those under the bonnet! and god knows where you would get the "EXACTLY 1 million" from..... WTF!!! if I was doing cast manifolds & developing a completley new system then yes possibly! but I'm not ;) I'm GOING TO remodel the mazda set up! It might not work as well as I hope, but then on the other hand, it might put all you doubters to rest & I sell the idea on for 1 million..... you just don't know! but if the second was to happen.... oh won't you feel stupid! |
All your bluster just makes you look more and more incapable Jono. It's pretty simple really, if you had the knowledge and means to do this project than you wouldn't need to be posting in here asking us what to do. The fact that you have come here asking, and now insist on arguing with people who know this vehicle only makes you look childish and argumentative.
Grow the hell up and "put your money where your mouth is"... Come back with results or stfu. |
I don't know why everyone is hating on this guy so bad. Let him try. See what he produces. Who knows?
if anyone has ever posted "making my own 4 rotor" on the forum, they've been flamed and ridiculed off the board... ...but it has been done. if a could of rednecks can build a running 4-rotor by slapping together (2) 2-rotors (with 2 13b-rew intake manifolds), why can't this guy ghetto-hack his twins to accept a different chra? I say, get to it! Keep us updated. :) |
Originally Posted by jonofd3
(Post 9786777)
Here we go agin!!
I don't know if you don't know how to word things, but from what I read on every single one of your posts is an attack on my ability! you don't know me, you don't know what equipment I have access to....... blah blah blah!! If you think it's not going to work, then that is your opinion, but there is a way to word thing politley with out going on the attack straight away! I garantee a few people are thinking the same as you, but they just say.... I'm not sure you will pull it off, but all the best & good luck trying :) also, have you seen the size of the blowers they are using on the supra? They are fucking huge!! I don't need anything that size! but you are correct, there is no way I would be able to get a pair of those under the bonnet! and god knows where you would get the "EXACTLY 1 million" from..... WTF!!! if I was doing cast manifolds & developing a completley new system then yes possibly! but I'm not ;) I'm GOING TO remodel the mazda set up! It might not work as well as I hope, but then on the other hand, it might put all you doubters to rest & I sell the idea on for 1 million..... you just don't know! but if the second was to happen.... oh won't you feel stupid! You and me are a lot alike. Do yourself a favor and ignore all the negativity. The doubters are the one's that 1. Have never attempted to try it. 2. Dont' have the skill. 3. Read everyone elses post and base all their knowledge 2nd hand. 4. Think they are know it all but haven't done a damn thing themselves to prove otherwise. If you have the resources, you can get a lot accomplished fabricating yourself (which is what you claim you can do). I don't know Barban but seriously, you have to question his own knowledge about the subject since he wanted someone to find Howard Coleman to confirm his opinion. That tells you right there that he doesn't know himself; yet he's the most negative poster in this thread. It doesn't take a ton of money if your innovative. Look at my sig. Everything on my NA 20b project I fabed myself. Subrframe! Complete exhaust header flang to exhaust tip. Made my own intake from engine flange to ITB's with working secondary shutter valves. My engine is move back 5-1/2" and keeps the steering rack in the stock location (no bump steer) and has as even lower center of gravity and polar moment than the factory set-up. Fabed my own tranny mounts and diff mounts. This allowed me to elliminate PPF. Relocated the shifter ect ect. All this was done im my garage like shop with my 3 in 1 plasma/stick/tig machine. Mig welder, miter saw, roto zip (w/accessories), and misc drills/taps & dyes. You get the idea. I've done thousands of dollars worth of fab work for penny's. The engine runs and holds idle at 750rpm's. What your wanting to do can be done. Good luck! ;) |
Originally Posted by theorie
(Post 9787030)
I don't know why everyone is hating on this guy so bad. Let him try. See what he produces. Who knows?
if anyone has ever posted "making my own 4 rotor" on the forum, they've been flamed and ridiculed off the board... ...but it has been done. if a could of rednecks can build a running 4-rotor by slapping together (2) 2-rotors (with 2 13b-rew intake manifolds), why can't this guy ghetto-hack his twins to accept a different chra? I say, get to it! Keep us updated. :) Agree 100%! We are here to help each other & shouldn`t be here for beating each other down when someone wants to try a new idea. This place is a wealth of information with many folks present who have done some very interesting things or solved some really difficult problems. Working as a collective group, there is no telling how many new ideas could be brought to reality. |
Originally Posted by fendamonky
(Post 9787019)
All your bluster just makes you look more and more incapable Jono. It's pretty simple really, if you had the knowledge and means to do this project than you wouldn't need to be posting in here asking us what to do. The fact that you have come here asking, and now insist on arguing with people who know this vehicle only makes you look childish and argumentative.
Grow the hell up and "put your money where your mouth is"... Come back with results or stfu. Great contribustion to this thread. :icon_tdow. He's not aksing how to fabricte the set-up. He's trying to get an idea of what turbo to use. Just because he may know how to fabricate, doesn't mean he understands turbo compressor maps and such. |
Originally Posted by Speeder165
(Post 9787172)
Agree 100%! We are here to help each other & shouldn`t be here for beating each other down when someone wants to try a new idea. This place is a wealth of information with many folks present who have done some very interesting things or solved some really difficult problems. Working as a collective group, there is no telling how many new ideas could be brought to reality.
Exactly! All the R&D can't be left up to Mazda. They need help also. |
Cheers for the support guys.....
And t-von you are correct in the fabrication & the fact I haven't taken the time to figure out the compressor maps ;) I thought a simple question in the rotary club like this, would come up with some useful advice on the turbos as to what would suit my application best.... there have been a few sujestions made, and as of yet I haven't looked in to reliability or ease of access to the turbos.... but I have a sneeky fealing I'm going to have to learn how to read the maps and leave the asking of simple questions!! J |
There is plenty known about selecting single turbos.
There isn't much to be said about selecting turbos for sequential apps because so few people have attempted it that way. You'll just have to crunch the numbers and design it yourself. You either have stock turbos, 99 spec turbos (similar to stock), BNR 3s, etc. But those use the stock manifold and control system because re-creating it is cost prohibitive. Nearly everyone with this kind of involvement opts to go single, 20B, or v8 simply because it's perceived to be more bang for the buck (in sweat equity) than re-engineering the sequentials. I wish you good luck. It can be done, certainly but it will be complicated and probably expensive. IME, weldable materials that can hold up to this kind of heat (except cast iron) are really expensive. Making the manifold will be a challenge to be compact, welded construction, and good flow characteristics. Nearly everyone with this kind of involvement opts to go single, 20B, or v8 simply because it's perceived to be more bang for the buck (in sweat equity) than re-engineering the sequentials. That said, a well done sequential setup combined with auxiliary injection could be a real sight to behold. The lack of space to work could be offset by the space created in removing stock emissions equipment. I know someone did this project before but I can't find the build thread for it. I recommend you search that one out because it was very interesting. |
There's a thread on reading compressor maps in the single section. Also, you may have some luck on Ray Hall's website if you can figure out how to adapt his great calculators to the rotary.
SP charges 11k for their sequential system, they've also done all of the R&D on the plumbing. I highly recommend that you read all of that thread before you start your build as it is the only tubular manifold sequential twin turbocharged car in the world (that I know of). I'd also encourage you to look at compound turbocharging as dudemaaan suggested. The plumbing on true sequential turbos is necessarily complicated and expensive. |
http://spracingonline.com/upload/fil...pseqcoated.jpg
^ I see a cast manifold in there. Not exactly DIY stuff. |
always game to lift the bar a little ;) if it doesn't work out as I hopes, atleast I gave it a go.... but all the air pump, cats etc have been thrown on mine already, so there is a fair bit more room in the engine bay already!, just got to get my engine built so I can start playing with the manifolds & blowers!!
Cheers Jono |
Originally Posted by jonofd3
(Post 9784704)
I know that the BNR set up is a great one, but I cant justify spending £600 on a second hand set, when I can make something for less than half the price & make more power. it's just the case of working out what turbo I need to invest in. The way I see it... why follow the trend like a lost sheep, when you can experiment & come up with something different?
The thing that pissed me of most was the fact you used: "it cant be done" and a buncha rookies what dont know dicks from elbows granted my spelling isn't that hot, but that doesn't have any reflection on my knowlage & abilities! A bit of an extreme example: stephen hawkings.... a vegitable, paralised & unable to comunicate, but would you say he is thick & useless?? No, he is one of the best minds in the world! Also I wouldn't be shouting too loudly about spelling, when your grammer that bad!! "buncha" surley that should be "bunch of" and "what don't" mmmmm, could that be that don't?? LOL don't forget my young friend, you are only 25 yourself ;) Anyway, I'm going to go now... I'll show my face once the project is all finished & working, just to show you all sorts of things can be achieved when you put your mind to it!! |
Interesting thread..... I believe 2 Super 60's would do well. This also depends on your power goals. I didn't really see anything posted on this.
http://www.spoolinperformance.com/ga...er60-p-33.html Look forward to seeing pics of this. And if you really want to shut the non-believers up..... post em up ;) |
Here is what I allways wanted to do but too much fab work that I can't afford and can't do myself. There is no need to run sequential with this setup since you are seperating each rotor. You could also run two O2 sensors and tune them individually:
Two manidolds two GT25's two "internal" waste gates two TIAL v-band compressor housings two BOV's If you are reaaly skilled you can mate them up to the Efini Y-pipe kit. Fab up a flange and make it bolt up to it. This makes mating up to the intercooler much simpler. If you can actually acomplish this, you can sell it it as a kit replacing the oem twins. You can use BOV that return back to the intake box. You can do dual exhasut all the way (dual in/out single magnaflow muffler) to the tip ot merge them together just before the cat' converter, if you even use one. |
Originally Posted by Barban
(Post 9784561)
after you said
and you're already limiting your options(you obviously didn't look at the very useful links I posted for you. Well, that's not going to work Well, that's not going to work either. You'll not be fitting a sequential, stainless, tubular manifold in the space of the stock cast unit You could have purchased Howard Coleman's USED, WORKING, non-sequantial set-up for $1500 without ECU and fuel-system. AN ABSOLUTE STEAL. You might find a turbo worth a hot-god-damn for "a few hundred pounds." Wrong. It will be one of your biggest problems. Right up there with figuring out to operate and control your sequential system. You said: and we said Between your lack of spelling ability and your statements I am telling you that 1)this will never get off the ground and 2)you want BNR's |
here, since bnr turbos just cant quench your thirst, buy these bro,
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-rx-7-1993-2002-parts-99/went-single-knight-sports-rf420-twins-902860/ |
Originally Posted by hkp
(Post 10044418)
here, since bnr turbos just cant quench your thirst, buy these bro,
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=902860 |
If you can dream it you can do it. But... If you are going to do it do it right. That being said using td0 what evers is joke. Take the time and build a quality product. As far as turbos the BNR's are considered gt28 internals, and are known to have a bit slower spool because of restriction and usually bump the transition up around 4800-5000RPM... So if you are building you your own well flowing manifolds I would run a GT28 on the low side with proper flow it should spool up very quickly like the stock system but make a bit more power and a GT30 on the top end. Allowing you to retain the 4500 transition but make heaps more power. I am a true believer in knowing this can be done once you break it down its not that complicated if you can fab your own stuff all it is is flapper doors and solenoids. Just takes a bit of creativity and some ability.
Chris |
Originally Posted by twomucboost4u
(Post 10044524)
If you can dream it you can do it.
Chris |
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