don't use seafoam
 

I changed the plugs yesterday. They only lasted like 3 or 4000 miles. Lots of carbon on them even though I do the water steam cleaning every other week.

So I poured 8 oz. of seafoam into the oil last night. This morning went to work, car fully warmed up, hit my usual straight 3 lanes and went WFO (0.8 bar on the PFC) and heard a slight pop like when you pop a balloon. Immediately lifted. Slowed down to a light and the engine vacuum is now 16 in. Hg with lumpy idle. Normally I get 19 in.Hg (468-470 mmHG). This is my 3rd motor, a Malloy Reman. Tuned by Steve Khan last May. It has been running great for the last 16 months. All new tires and a new clutch last month.

My guess is that the seafoam (smelled like kerosene and some other solvents) got sprayed into the combustion chamber by the oil nozzle and caused the detonation.



So, is this a cracked apex seal or a corner seal?

I called Ray at Malloy. He's got a bunch of brand new motors from Japan for $4300 (including shipping).

At this point, I'm debating whether (a) put an all new motor in; (b) sell the whole thing as a roller; (c) trade it in the cash for clunkers program; (d) go LS1; (e) part it outl.

As to (a) I don't feel like blowing $6K on a car that gets 11 mpg and no one else rides in it nor have I had a chance to do track days in the last 6 years;
As to (b) it's starting to look like a good way to generate cash, and as you know, cash is king in a deflationary environment;
As to (c) I'm joking about the Cash for Clunkers ...
As to (d) all the LS1, unless they're hard core track whores, don't seem to keep the LS1
As to (e) too much work to disassemble the car, might as well donate and take a tax credit.

Here is the latest picture of a car that I have owned for the last 14 years through a same color repaint by Mr. Spoiler, a 2nd tranny, 2nd diff, a career change, 3 jobs, 3 kids and 2 minivans (the last being an Odyssey).



https://i793.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1249710905


Believe it or not but this van is fun to drive now that I have lowered it in combination with the 2005 RL low profile tires and wheels. That V6 engine is creamy smooth and torquy with the 5 speeds AT.

https://i793.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1249711691

I know your probably not serious about cash for clunkers, but they do crush the car. I would hate to see a nice FD get crushed by our government while putting you in some dumb bubble car.

I'd probably punch you in the mouth it you did cash for clunkers, you know It'd get crushed right?

Check your compression before you go jumping to conclusions.

That car is too beautiful to get scrapped.

Edit: he beat me too it lol.

It's worth more than 4500, must be kidding me if your going to C4C it.

I say sell most of the mods, return it to mostly stock and sell it as a blown roller if you're really set on getting rid of it.

1. Do a compression test.
2. Check your vacuum lines and gaskets for leaks. You may have blown out the TB gasket if it is still the old paper version.
3. Change your oil, get that crap out of the oil system. It is one thing to use it to de-carbon the rotors, but don't put it in the oil.

lol....WHY on earth do you think you have to "do the water steam cleaning every other week"?
I suspect THIS practice, more than anything else has led to all your problems.


I mean, I know of, oh heck....DOZENS of OEMs that recommend this. The billions of dollars they spend on R&D clearly show the need.....:rolleyes:

All derision aside, you bring up some serious questions that I hope you find your answers to. We all know the FD is not practical and has a host of issues, and CAN be money pits. On the other hand, there are some owners who are still on the original motor, and many owners on their first rebuild who have had years of trouble-free motoring. I am assuming some of the things like changes to your job and family keep you from taking the car to the track? Was tracking the car one of the main reasons you kept it?
You have started a good list, I would suggest adding to it with more 'pros' and 'cons' and using that information to help you make your final decisions.

Good luck!

Doing an LS1 will be WAY more than 6k.

If you're gonna spend the money like that on the FD, might as well take you time and build it back up again. Find out exactly what caused the blown motor and make it better.

OR

Just hold onto the car til you gather up more money (if you're having a hard time with money), take it apart slowly and build it back up.

OR worse comes to worse.

I would part it out, then sell the roller.

Then maybe in the future buy another FD? These cars are super duper cheap. Even already swapped LS1 FD's are cheap as hell now.

^+over9000

Negative, there is nothing wrong with steam cleaning. Do it every day if you want to.

Not sure why you'd add anything to your oil though :(

Get the motor compression tested. Anything else is just a waste of time.

Is the vacuum steady or does it jump around a bit?

If you're not using it much and bummed about the poor mileage then I'd suggest you sell it now to Fritz which is option F) that you left out lol :), or part it and sell it as a roller. Then buy a new M3 which in my mind is a great all around car but the mileage will be close to the FD w/ the pomanferrari foot you have attached to your right leg :D

Not sure you can blame this on Sea Foam...I think those kinds of additives are for people who do not maintain there cars that well...which you obviously do.

Whats up with the crack on the OEMs not recommending the steam cleaning...is that even relevant when we are talking rotary's??

No advice on your dilemma...been there with Porsches a few times. I would park it for a week and let your head clear - no rash decisions.

If you were not so far away I would be interested in the car as a roller un-parted out (and would pay accordingly) unless Fritz beats me :-)

Do an LS1, you fall in love with the car all over again. The prices of LS1's are dropping due to all the new motors out LS2's 7s. I did mine for 7500 back when prices were higher.

That's not including the money back from selling parts.

As a matter of conjecture....why do make this assertion? Just curious. I mean, when no OEM or specialty engine house or leading edge companies endorse doing this.

You've rebuilt a lot of engines and I respect your opinion. Have you seen first hand proof of any benefit of regular 'steam cleaning'?

I remember back in the day when it was common for V8 engines to get a piece of carbon lodged in a valve seat, we used to dump a quart of ATF thru the carb and THAT worked wonders....plus fogged mosquitoes for 37 square blocks!

Not a crack, just a question. I am not saying it isn't effective, as objective evidence has shown it to be so, I just question the validity/effectivity of doing it regularly. Have you EVER seen an owner's manual instruct you to do this, for example? I haven't in all the years I have been driving (some 35 years now).

Running water through the engine has zero negative effects that I've seen. I've torn down a few motors that have seen steam cleaning and the carbon buildup was much less than I see on stock high mileage motors. Not 100% conclusive so take it for what it's worth. I've also used it to unstick side seals on engines on numerous occasions over the years.

Why did you state the steam cleaning was possibly causing his problems?

Btw, I still laugh everytime I see your 'black friday/crown royal' statement quoted in people's sigs :lol:

Have you ever seen the owner's manual tell you to:

remove the precat
remove the AST
premix
insert a thermal pellet in the e-shaft
change the shape of the intake/exhaust ports
run without an oil pan gasket
etc etc

We're a bit past using the owner's manual as gospel at this point. It's a great tool, but you have to know it's limitations :)

I *have* seen FD engines driven for many years bone stock just as the owner's manual intended....... and upon teardown they had an unbelievable amount of carbon which had eventually led to apex seal failure.

It is steady but low. However, my fuel pressure gauge is sensitive to show that it's fluttering.

I'm not seafoam expert, but I did lots of research on it when I used it on my Acura. I'm not exactly sure you really used seafoam the right way. I've never really heard anything good about using it as an oil additive, but I've read that you shouldn't let it sit like that and shouldn't drive it far at all without changing the oil.

I think it's fine in the intake/gas mixture, but I would never use it in my oil.

Sucks, all depends on your current family situation and whatnot on if you should fix it.

so your fuel px is fluttering but the vacuum is constant?

16 inches is ~-400 on the pfc commander, not what i'd consider a blown motor if it's a consistent -400. Hell, my new motor pulls quite a bit less than that with stellar compression, although it has a healthy port on it.

Sounds like you need an oil change and a compression test, and shouldn't put seafoam in the oil of this or whatever motor you have in the future.

Compression test it, also I have never heard of adding seafoam to the oil but that had nothing to do with detonation or shouldnt have if you are saying it was thru the oil injectors.

Either way, why dont you go with a motor with stronger seals, RA seals, ALS seals, or even 3mm mazda seals. Remans are what they are, same with the stock oem 2mm seals. They are great, but are not forgiving. Also what in the world is going on for you to get 11 mpg, you must be beating the car pretty hard to see that, those are road coarse fuel economy numbers. ;)

^^good point, I get 20-22 mph highway and 15mpg around town, this with 400+ rwhp.

I've seen Seafoam used a many a time on some of the cars that qualify for the C4C deal. It was always put into 1-2 gals of gas, and the car was let run until it ran out of gas. Oil, filter, plugs, and new gas where then added, and they always ran like a top. It amazed me that some of the cars my neighbor could fix. I say let run, I mean, sitting in the yard SMOKING. They would smoke while that seafoam was in them, but once it ran out, it was good.

I can't see why Steam would hurt either. If it did Water Injection would be a no no for us.


And out of curiosity I entered the FD into the C4C thing on the Nissan site, and according to them it doesn't qualify. Found out why though, there is a 15 year olds or under rule, I have a 93. But, as it was said above, there isn't anything out there worth trading it for.

Well....I was thinking more along the lines of other cars with that post....lol! We all know the FD has definitely benefited from post-production/aftermarket development.

Thanks for your responses. As I have said before, I will defer to the experts and/or people with REAL experiences every time. :icon_tup:

I do beat on it. Second tranny second diff. Nothing like the redline buzzer to go with the starbuck espresso in the morning. BTW road course fuel mileage for me can range from 6 to 8 mpg (this was 10 yrs ago though). I

I'll answer this question because I have one of the very few fd's that had the original engine last over 100k using the the water cleaning method. Water steaming works, but I think some people are confused about what the cleaning is actually doing inside a rotary engine.

The cleaning does more for softening the carbon so the compression seals can continue to move freely and make max compression however, the steam isn't powerfull enough to remove the thick baked on carbon that's on the rotor face unless you do it excessively (like poman did). It's possible poman's excessive cleaning and final seafoam treatment caused a big carbon chunk to finally break away from the rotor face and damage the engine. I'm sure youv'e heard the numerious complaints of rotary's flooding. Sticking seals is the number 1 cause of this. You get too much carbon build-up in between the seals and they get stuck which lowers your compression. Back when my car had over 90k on it, I let it sit up in winter for 3 months without starting it. I finally went out in 35 degree weather and did 3 cold starts in under 3mins to see if I could make it flood. It didn't and fired up every time. When I blew the engine at 108k I opened it to find lots of carbon on the rotors but very little in the seal grooves.

Bottom line: If you want to do steam cleaning it's ok on occasion regardless of mileage. Doing it excessively is only safe if you start with a new or newly rebuilt engine thats virtually carbon free because now your slowing the carbon building process. Excessive cleanings on hi mileage engines can be dangerious since you don't want large chunks to breaks off. Oh yea, I always let the AWS do it's thing at 1st start-up. I know it's main design is to accelerate the warm up of the cat but it does have an additional advantage. It helps burn away the excessive gas that gets injected into the engine at cold start. When you blip the throttle to cancle the feature, all your really doing is allowing the excessive gas to stick to the rotor face. This allows for more carbon to build-up. Creating extra carbon is something you don't really want to do in these engine. Anyone saying that the AWS feature will harm the engine doesn't know what their talking about as my engine is proff with no unusual bearing wear.

^^Interesting, thanks for posting your experience.

Btw my idle AFRs are in the low 14s upon initial startup, no AWS needed. 870cc top feed primaries.

For some reason, I don't think the seafoam would have hurt anything. Although, as previously stated it's not really designed to be added to oil and driven very far. Usually, like ATF, it can be added to oil before an oil change (idled for 20 mins) to help break up gunk in the oil pan. Problem that DOES exist is breaking up too much gunk and stuffing up the oil pickup. Seen this happen in land rovers a few times... they are gunky turds - especially mine.

I've used seafoam several times in the past - but never on a rotary. It's a detergent that when ingested through an intake vacuum, then let sit, can really clean up a gunky top-end on a piston motor. Sticky intake valves etc... Even if your OMP passed some into the combustion chamber I really doubt it would have caused detonation... Definitely do as the rest have advised:

Change oil/plugs. Do a compression test. Check vacuum lines twice.

Good luck. :)

Missed this first read...

Sounds very possible; however, I hope this isn't the case.

Rear was 65 psi with even pulses. Front was 95 psi. Vacuum is 420-430 mmHg.

this was a piston compression tester? get it done on a legit rotary tester.

those compression #s don't really jibe with the vacuum.

Hey Rich do u guys have one? If so can u guys walk with it at the meet?
Khris

Hi Khris,

I will bring it to the Carlisi meet with me but I won't have time to do too many compression checks. If you're interested in having one done PM me :icon_tup:

I'm curious, what eventually failed on that motor....soft (coolant) seal?

Coolant seal will not cause low compression.

From the readings provided, I would say that you have a chipped apex seal on the rear rotor that has caused just a slight amount of damage to the rotor housing. This will bring all the readings down for each rotor face.

Here is a customer's build with very similar readings/symptoms, the car still ran, he actually drove it to the shop. http://www.banzai-racing.com/2008_cu..._breakdown.htm

Failure was one chipped seal
http://www.banzai-racing.com/2008_cu...apex_seals.jpg

Nothing better than having post come straight from the horses mouth. You guys along w/ Rich and Ihor are a great asset to this forum :icon_tup:

No worries about gunk in an FD oil pan. Whenever I change it's half gas and 1/2 oil :lol:

Yep I burn about 5 or 6 gallons in a 25 minute session probably averaging about 80 to 90 mph :) I'm not sure what that adds up to but I'd say getting 5 mpg at the track is about average.

If this was related to my post, I never suggested they did. I just wondered what eventually failed on that poster's OEM engine.

Those readings along with the lumpy exhaust note (<---just remembered this from your original post) don't bode well. I'll bet if you closely watch the vacuum at idle it has a regular fluctuation :(

I get 15 road and 5 best on track

Back when I used to road race with my BNRs (I *really* need to get back on track this year) I would get right around 7 mpg.

Rich understood what I was saying, if you are getting 11mpg on the street you are romping on the car pretty much non-stop. In summer temps it really isnt that suprising you chipped a seal, I still dont think the blame falls on the seafoam. Either way, good luck in whatever direction you take, if you stay with the rotary get stronger more forgiving seals.

...... or get a simple water injection setup. I think if every 300+ rwhp had this you'd see almost zero blown motors.

im not seafoam expert but arent you suppose to suck it up through a vacuum hose into the UIM? ive used it before and had no problems... why would you mix it with your oil??

from seafoam's website: i wasn't sure about adding it to the oil system either, but it sounds like they think its alright. 100 percent petroleum product.

LOL because I have an Aquamist system that I bought 6 years ago and never installed. That might have saved the motor?

This was not a hot summer day. Temperature was 72F, air intake was 29C, coolant temp was 85C. Knock number was high though 89 when it's normally 25. boost on the PFC was 0.8bar. The plugs were brand new 9s all around.

I still think it's the seafoam being injected through the oil injector. This motor is a Malloy reman with mostly new internals 5 years old with 29K on it. 95 psi on the front is pretty good considering the age and abuse.

Oh, you're absolutely right Fritz. Was just tossing out info about what it's used for in "other" cars. :D

Considering the seafoam is basically the only part that is abnormal, I suppose this is where the research can/should be done.

Is it [likely] an additive such as seafoam would cause detonation in a rotary? I do know they don't fair well when detonation is a factor.

The odd part is that 8oz was added to the oil, which will make it's way to the combustion chamber, but in very small amounts. Would a very small amount diluted in oil still cause detonation?

- I know if you had the answer we wouldn't be here. I'm just kind of thinking out loud.

Best of luck.