Decision time... rebuild or V8...
 

Pretty sure my car is going to need a rebuild. The car is starting to lose coolant. Now, if it isn't the coolant seals, this is moot. However, I'm almost certain that the seals are gone. The car doesn't overheat though... maintains 84C. Going to pressure test it later this week...

Now on to the debate:

If the engine is bad... I'm looking at rebuilding or going LS1 or LS2

My plan was to upgrade the turbo and such later down the road but this is a huge speedbump and the thought is I can upgrade to LSX and sell most of my rotary parts to make up the difference....

Thoughts?

BTW, I've owned RX-7s for the last 10 years... so I'm pretty diehard rotary.. just trying to see what makes the most economical sense right now. Either way this project will have to be put off until the Spring of 2010 if it is bad engine..

coolant seal problems are cheap to rebuild, you don't have a blown rotor and housing usually

yeah usually, I would to the rebuild myself, I've done one before... just would replace everything inside anyways...

I mean, I'd just rebuild the engine and go ahead and do a single turbo conversion. An LS1 seems like much much more work, and much more money. Wiring is also a pain in the ass =P

Would you be doing the swap or a company? FYI, Hinson charges like 9 grand to do the swap and that is without motor or tranny. If you can budget it, I would go the ls2 route.

you can rebuild the rotary for less than you can buy a LS1 longblock, t-56, and ECU. If you're saying that it has to wait until 2010 I'm assuming it's due to budget concerns....so I'd say go with the rebuild since it's cheaper. Keep it simple, don't try to go single at the same time, don't try to go crazy with a ported motor that you don't have supporting mods for. Just get it back on the road and enjoy it. You'll thank me later when it's not still sitting in the garage in 2015 with "big plans" for it.

If you are concerned about reliability go with full non sequential. You will make as much power as a relatively unmodded LS1 and as long as the tune is good you shouldn't have to worry about the motor failing.

Stick with the rotary :) Rebuild is dirt cheap when you have coolant seal failure as long as you dont let the engine sit for more than a month without throwing some oil into the rotor housings and turning the engine over.

heh thats why I think my option is to keep driving the SOB and filling it with coolant every once in a while... I don't want it to sit.

Guys, I should have been more clear, I am already full non-seq and have all supporting mods, PowerFC, etc. I just don't have the fuel upgrades or single turbo. Other than that, I'm starting to lean more to just rebuilding and porting the engine.

The reason for waiting is I'm in the process of purchasing a house. Money truly isn't the problem.

You don't want to haev to change your name now do you? lol

Stick with the rotary.

And you know this how?

Obviously I'm biased towards the LS swap but, since you're buying a house, I'll just say this. I would not consider doing the swap unless you have the workspace to do it - a garage etc. Also, unless you are a complete wrench-a-phobic, I would not consider paying a supplier like Hinson to do the swap. PM me for more info.

Do some searching and question-asking over at http://www.v8rx7forum.com/ and then make your decision.

If the only problem is your coolant seals why not just replace those? If you have a coolant leak the worst thing you can possibly do to the engine is let it sit as it will turn into one big piece of rust. It's also the cheapest alternative, and the one with the least amount of downtime and unpredicatable expenses that you will have with a LS1 swap.

Easily solved by draining the coolant...

In the short term, the LS1/LS2 swap is going to be more money & time. The swap really isn't that bad and there are some pretty nice mounting kits now. It is probably going to cost you 7-8k when said and done. Up side, reliability and easily 400-450 RWHP with heads and cam. Plus it will be pretty streetable.

Downside... rotaries are cool and the T56 is just a big clunky trans. (loved the fd's 5spd). I think it really depends on what your plans are for the car. If you can rebuild it yourself and money is tight, stick with the rotary.

BTW- I have a ls1 FD... I track it and just got sick of dealing with the rotary. If I could have two cars, it would be a LS1 track car and a stock rotary for the street.

Yeah well I know that I plan on getting a bigger turbo, and all the rest if I do a rebuild... so my other option is to go LSx and just do that, sell the rotary parts...

I'm really torn but I have a lot of time to worry about it lol. I think I just need to drive a V8 RX-7.

Big and clunky > hot and grindy

i have one and this is true

stay with the rotors, just replace the coolant seals and it will be all good to go again.

You need to look at this long term too. Let's say you spend the money and rebuild the motor. What happens if you blow a seal a couple of months later, it is inevitable, at some point you will need another rebuild. This could be before or after you sell the car, but it will need to be rebuilt and from what I see here, it is single turbo cars that are be rebuilt more often. One bad tune and bam.

Now, throw a lsx in there and it is done, no need to worry about rebuilding the motor or dumping more money into maintenance. Plus, if you decide to modify the lsx it has these benefits:
1. torque
2. Easy to find parts
3. Plenty of good tuners/mechanics everywhere in the nation
4. Nitrous, turbo, supercharger - lots of different possibilities
5. Some nice power gains for the money.
6. torque

Just some food for thought. If I keep the fd long enough, I will be throwing in a ls6 or ls7, just need to find a company to do it as it is a bit beyond my mechanical reach - and I refuse to pay hinson 9 grand for essentially labor.

Yeah, I plan on holding onto my car, I love the RX-7 to death. I've owned this one for the last 7 years... and a couple preceeding this one.

I can do the rebuild labor myself, I can also do the LSx swap myself. I hate wiring, but I did wire up my silvia with a friend's help.

I've been battling that same thought PureRX7... Money short term vs. long term... I love turbo, I love rotary, but the car now has 118k miles on it and it would going to its 3rd motor... I just want a reliable 400-450 rwhp. Each has its benefits, but I worry that I will end up rebuilding the rotary over and over again, and I will slowly lose the ability to have that time on hand for such efforts.

My RX-7 is one of 3 cars I own and so it doesn't matter how long the car is down. I also plan on picking up an NSX in the near future, so the RX might be on hold either way...

If you are going to pick up a NSX, why not sell the FD, and add those funds to the NSX fund and pick up something really nice?

If you have the money, time, and are going to keep the car for a while, go V8. It seems that you are going to go single turbo later, which will cost you almost the same in the long run.

I built and tuned my own rotary and love the engine, but Im sorry, the LSx is just a better platform - for *many* reasons.

If I could go back a year, I would have gone with the LSx.

Want LS1, Get an Z06. Why waste time when you could go buy one thats out of the box 500HP and modern interior and chassis design for the engine.. I heard more people with issue going LS1 and personally, not much different than buying 02+ Z06 (which now a days maybe cheaper option then conversion). I looked into 06 Z06 and they go for mid 30s to low 40s... Which isn't bad for what you get.

I just feel that people who want to do the swap usually uses 'reliability' and 'headache' as an issue... So, Z06 resolves both of those.. Why spend several month doing the conversion and spend thousands and hundred+ of man hour?? Seem more of a headache to me... And might be easier to just go back to rotary..

1 simple reason, I like the way the FD looks. In my opinion, it's one of the worlds best looking cars. It is MUCH nicer then the Z06. It's also very unique.

Now, I could see what you are saying if the owner were in incompetent. I once was like that. I even tried to blame the rotary for blowing when it was my own fault. I now have a full understanding of the rotary and would still go LSx if I could do it again.

Exactly... I love the way the FD looks. I also love the rotary engine and the thought of once again having a huge turbo on it. Problem is the V8 is bullet-proof. I don't plan on doing anything crazy to it. It produces more torque. Engine parts are EASY to find. I can keep A/C and Powersteering. Car remains lightweight and unique.

I haven't committed either way, I'm just weighing my options. Additionally, in a perfect world I could own another RX-7 and keep it rotary. Which I might do later anyways... lol

Buy a trans am/corvette, dont waste the fd chassis.

Much better? I wouldn't go that far, I mean the FD is great for the money, I think for under $15k it is hard to be aesthetically. I love my fd more than anyone, but, you have to face reality, it is not on a c6 z06 level. Then again, it is all subjective and this is a rx7 forum.
http://px6.streetfire.net/0001/29/62/1129226_600.jpg

Nice picture Bryan! That makes me want to go buy an Z06 :)

I guess if you really REALLY like the FD body style.. then stick with FD and go LSx. But personally I think new Z06s are pretty good looking car... and bit more modern style vs. 15+ year old FD style.

If money is an issue, then I say stick with rotary. Rotary Rebuilt does Very reasonable rebuilds and couple weekends later, you'll have your car back to where it was... Vs. Months of waiting for Hinson's parts, rewiring, tuning, etc... to have something bit more reliable... Which, in today's term, Fd's are FAR more reliable than say 10 years ago. People also need to realize, nothing is reliable when you start modifying.. either LSx or 13B-REW :)

Buy a Z06 - Don't remove her heart :)

Amazing the feelings that emerge about all of this. I still in my mind think that my car will remain rotary. Just think I'll be happier in the long run. We'll see.

Go post on the V8forum and see if anyone in your area will at least take you for a ride. It is a different experience, but it is a fun car wither way. I think it is pretty easy to weigh your options, in the end you will wish you picked the other option so it really doesn't matter.

What about a N/A 3 rotor?

You know what I think ;)

I'll talk to you on Saturday. This is a tough decision, was for me too as I almost got another rotary. I felt I had to go a different route after selling the R1. Some very valid points on both sides but truely will come down to what you really want.
I know it's not about all horsepower for you or else you would have gone single by now.
Not too much concern about the money cause you have good money sense like some people I know *cough*purerx7*cough*
I'm all for owning a z06 and could have gotten one but something about being in a car not very many people have...even it it has a chevy engine in it. The FD is just unique. Corvette?...they all look the same to me. Like mustangs, just see m to be everywhere. FD? much more unique.

haha so does that mean I have bad money sense?

I said "like some people I know" implying you have good money sense.

haha thought it said unlike, ahhh I am getting old :( Just ordered your Nardi wheel btw.

too much posts to read... but i was in the same boat..

i have a lotttt of upgrades and i still dont think selling off the rotary stuff will pay off for the swap.. it will end up being a few grand more.

i also opt'ed not to do the swap bc rebuilding and putting the rotary back in is cake...
lsx swap will take time and patients.... i felt like all the little things would add up and just cause more down time... i believe the subframe kit is like 3g alone (i forgot but i think around there for the justin samberg? kit which is suppose to be top notch)

ive planned on the lsx swap twice.. both results yeilded me with the rotary still in the car... next car will be an lsx rx7.....

Ported Rotary w/ Aspec 500R vs. LS1 swap...

For what its worth I am buying a roller fd tomorrow and I will be putting in a LS2. There are a few reasons I have decided to do this instead of rebuilding the stock rx7 motor.

1) I love LS engines, I have a 02 zo6 with heads cam intake and some other mods, making 470 rwhp. If I cruise at 65-70 I still get 30MPG, if I drive a little hard and around town I will average 20.

2) These motors are reliable as can be. Like I said I am making 470 rwhp and have put over 8K miles on that set up and not a single problem, the car has 60K on it and has NEVER had an engine problem.

3)Installing the ls motor does not affect the balance or the weight of the FD which is very important to me as I do plan on having alot of track time in this car, but it will also be my driver as I have been driving the vette WAY to much.

4) These engines are very easy to work on, I mean just about anyone should be able to build an LS1, they are also cheep to modify.

5) the conversion parts arent that expensive. Engine cradle is about $800, you can modify your own wiring harness, tranny mount is $150, $500 for top of the line radiator. and a few other things that I am sure I am leaving out. All and all 2K give or take 500 for the conversion parts.

That is my opinion on the matter. Dont get me wrong I respect the rotory motors, but they just arent for me

I could say a lot here... like... "Cars don't have souls" or "the rotary is a great engine, but the LS1 is better. Much better."

Ok. Said it anyway. All that's to say I love the RX-7 chassis and form much more than I like its engine. And, I really like the engine.

Unfortunately, the engine has a few significant drawbacks that make it essentially untenable, that 15 years of the aftermarket hasn't fixed (unless Coleman's thread has truly figured it out).

The LSx are great engines too. It's not just about reliability. Light, flexible, reliable, powerful, and easy to modify and work on. Pound for pound it's arguably the best mass produced engine nearly anywhere (dollar for dollar this is no longer arguable).

So, in my mind, why not marry a great chassis and awesome shape with a spectacular engine?

Ultimately, however, it boils down to what really drives you. I have no loyalty to make or model. There is no heresy in engineering or design except for the laws of physics and what works for you. That does not mean that I believe that you can't make something worse.

Seems to be more passion than sense in this whole debate.

Like I said, more passion than sense.

Look, the rotary is a beautiful engine. I respect it. I don't pathologically revere it - or its creators.

It's really a matter of "what kind of car guy are you?"

I'm not the kind that quotes the creators of the FD or that of the corvette or that of the Shelby Cobra. I care about their history and what they've accomplished. But, I really don't care what they think of my car.

I'm the kind of car guy that has passion for making things better and faster. And, for putting my own stamp on it too.

And, Gordon, this is not an argument about maturity. This is an argument about the soul of a car. I'm perfectly happy with calling my car an LS-7 or whatever. Doesn't really matter to me. All I know is that, by my measure, the car suits my needs far better than it did with the rotary in it.

Mazda engineers had an opportunity to get it right. They got it mostly right.

Gordon,

I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, what you have accomplished and what you give back to this community on a daily basis. However, IMO your reasoning is flawed and illogical - at best. Like myself, you seem pretty stubborn and close minded on this issue, which is why the foundation of your reasoning is so out of scope.

First off, it is not the creator who dictates the destiny of a car, it is the owners. So what if one of the designers says that a FD without a rotary is no longer a Rx7? Who gives him the authority to say what is and what isn't? There were so many people involved in designing and putting together the rx7, that I find it wrong to follow one mans ideology.

"You can build a reliable 500 whp single turbo 13b or build a reliable 500 whp V8"

I can count on one or two hands the amount of FD owners who make 500whp reliably (more then 2 years without a rebuild and these people are the ones who barely use them). Sure, you can have a reliable 500whp rotary, maybe one that is barely used. However, if you are constantly beating on it and driving it hard, the engine just can't take the abuse. That is a FACT and is evident by all the rebuilds. Compare that to a ls7 which can handle the abuse all day long for years on end. A modified rotary motor will never be as reliable as a v8, never. Sure, ones that are well taken care of and not modified can last quite some time, especially the 12a's - I have seen them with 200,000+ miles with no rebuilds. Although, that is not what this thread is about.

"No one except those who have converted to V8's think of them as Rx7's"

This is not true either, perhaps this is more what you want to believe opposed to what is true. I have a 13b and still consider a lsx swap FD a rx7, so do PLENTY of FD owners. I find it is the only die hard rotary fans that consider it a blasphemy.

"Those that say cars don't have souls or that the engine is not the soul are either not mature enough to know what's what or they simply aren't really car guys."

This is a bold statement, and you are trying to make your opinion into a wide-held belief. A car is SO MUCH more then what engine it has. To me, and many others, the soul is a combination of so many factors, of course the engine being one, but when I sit in my car and start it(assuming it starts) the smile on my face is a direct result of the CAR and NOT just the engine. Thus to say the soul revolves solely around an engine is foolish. What about older cars that aren't impressive under the hood but are just a beautiful automobile(1955 Jaguar XK140), does that car not have a soul? I guess either I am too immature or just not a car guy :/ BTW that was a rather insulting statement on your part, which is rather out of character for you.

Whether you have a ls7, 2jz, or a 13b, it is still a Rx7. If I put a rb26 motor in a s13, does that mean its no longer a 240sx? Of course not. I realize that the rotary is what makes the Rx7 unique and different, but to me it is the overall package that truly is the soul of any automobile.

I mean this out of no disrespect, but I need to defend my right as a "car guy".

please please please drive or take a ride in a lsx rx7 .. either stock or with work done to it . trust me .. thats the only thing u need to make up ur mind either rotary or v8 all it takes is 1 drive or ride .

and my insurance still says rx7 on it .. so i guess it is still a rx7 . lol.. i understand were everyone is coming from with the whole soul thing .. but ill take torque > soul any day .

Totally agree with you Purerx7, very well said.

im not going to argue about most off the issues people have discused because ive seen thread after thread of battles waged between the ls guys and the "purists"...and it pretty much always ends up going no were.

i will however say, the only thing that really gets me pissed off, are the asshole youngins who before they even get to experience the rotary, or blame the rotary for blowing when it was there own stupidity, and then want to go ls...i know this isnt the case, but it just really boils my blood, how the hell do you even know your going to hate the engine? ya know

anyway the fact of the matter is, preference, do you want your car too feel like a vette? or to feel like an Rx7?
you can fight about "heart" "soul" being a fake rx7 or whatever, but you can never argue that putting an ls makes the FD still feel like an rx7 when you drive...because it just cant
yea the seat still holds your ass the same...and they both make power, but the feel is different

and honestly, the rx7 looses some of its exoticness when you put an ls in it

yea its cool to see someones FD that had a swap in it, but in the end, its just a plain old v8

but when you roll up in an rx7 with a rotor, you know your going to get some questions about it, the sound just draws peoples attention...wtf is that noise? wtf do you mean no pistons? rotiserie? why the hell are you dumping 2 stroke in the gas? how the hell can that little thing make that kind of power?

theres nothing wrong with doing the swap, to each his own after all.

The point is that I don't care. My point was that, for my purposes, it's a better car. I simply don't care what you call it.

Actually, my opinion from the earlier post still stands. Cars don't have souls. The essential character of the car can be changed. People say that when you strap a turbo on a Miata. Aw heck, I did that one too.

It's simple, I think your argument is nonsense. To simply say that you believe the FD should remain a rotary because you believe in preserving the FD as intended by its creators is one thing. Telling me that the 13b is reliable at 500.. er any rwhp strains credibility. To further insist that those of us who modify the RX-7 are not car guys is even further sign that your passion for the FD has over-ridden any sense that you apply in the normal act of living your life. To wit, it's more nonsense.

%'s are simply on my side on this one. Exceptions simply don't prove the rule. You could argue that all the FD's in the classifieds are not owned by rotary enthusiasts because they obviously don't know how to keep their engines from popping. One could make that argument, but it would seem to be more pissing in the wind. What I know about rotaries probably can't fill the cup next to my night stand. However, the 13b's reliability record speaks for itself.

When looking for an FD the question to ask is "when was the last rebuild?" or "how many rebuilds on this engine?"

I freely admint that I neither have the mechanical skill or patience to own a FD with its rotary. I would love to. But, I'd rather drive the car than not.

Oh, and to the OP, the only way you'll really, really know is to drive one. Get in the damn thing and drive it. You'll know very quickly whether or not you like it. The sound alone... But, also take it around a few corners to prove to yourself that the balance of the chassis is not upset.

There's really no other way to know for yourself. After all, it's really about what you want. You shouldn't care one bit what the heck I think.

Drive and decide.

id stick with the rotary, then go get an auxiliary injection kit to further increase the 13B's reliability. in the end tho, its not about what we think its about what you as the owner think. if you want to go LSX swap and want to drop the money for that conversion, do it. if you want to stay rotary then go for it. either way, you can blow up a 13B and you can blow a V8.

^ Agreed 100% with Gordon.

Go full non-sequential, I just finished this conversion the proper way and I don't regret it one bit.

Meth/Alky injection, yum yum yum.

Also eat bacon.