Can I fit WI with no remap?
 

ok I'm gonna buy the water injection kit next week but I'm not sure if I need a remap or not,I have hks pro f con ecu but is hard to find a tuner in UK to remap ,so is possible to fit it straight on and adjust the pressure switch manual .

Thanks.

You do not need a re-map. Most people use it as a safe guard.

Ok cool that's save me a lot of money then ,people said it's only keep the temp down and clean throttle and other things.can I fit the nozzle in the elbow where it bend 90 degree ...

As RenesisFD mentioned, you won't need a re-tune. However, if you are spraying water only, you will see a slight reduction in power. On the other hand, if you utilize 50/50 water meth you will see a slight bump in power from the decreased air intake temperature. Water alone will not reduce intake temps, but it will suppress knock. The methanol is what cools the temps and the mixture is ideally the best of both worlds.

A 300cc nozzle will do fine to start with. Also, with AI, you may want to consider a Twin Power or the AEM coils. It is a little more demanding on the ignition and our cars are known for being a little lacking as you approach mid 300hp and above.

My car has hks twin power ignition ,so I need to connect the pump wire to it yea?
And I will put 50/50 mix and see how it goes.also I'm using my window washer Bottle and a tank because it's already mounted .

So even if we don't tune for it 50/50 will increase power?

Yeah from what I have seen H2O can cause up to a 20 RWHP loss. In which many people make up by runing higher boost.

But I am unsure regarding 50/50. I recall reading somewhere that the 50/50 mix causes 0.5 afr increase in richness. So the car is lower in power due to the tune being slightly off. <---Can you (or anyone who knows) confirm if that information is correct?

Yes, the mixture will be a little richer from the alcohol. However, the greatly reduced intake temps do make up for the loss. The "gain" is very dependent on the other variables in the system, but there will be a slight bump in power from 50/50 alone.

So if I fit the kit I loss a bit of power not incress ,but. Get low temp instead but I don't want to lose power in that case.

Check out my hot start issues compression test result

No No No.

The Twin Power operates exclusively with the ignition circuit alone. Once connected, it is left alone to perform its job. However, to help keep things fresh I do recommend the following:

New plugs
New Wires
Relocate coils
New Leading Coil ($150 new from Ray Crowe. The leading is the workhorse of the system and they often fade from years of use and exposure to the heat and being mounted under the UIM)

You are using two tanks? Are you setting it up in a siphoning configuration? I recommend using one tank. Keeping the system simplified will be advantageous. Many use the washer tank and there is nothing wrong with that. If you use it, definitely clean it thoroughly to ensure no particles will cause a blockage. Ultimately, it would be best to purchase a new washer tank if you go this route.

Many of the basic concepts of AI are covered in the Auxiliary Injection section of the forum. Though you aren't "tuning up" for it currently, you still want to ensure a trouble free system that you install properly the first time. And don't worry, it's only a matter of time before you want 20+psi ;)

That's why I was asking because my tuner said if I don't tune for it I will lose power be it water or 50/50.

He was probably being modest with numbers so I'm neiter hyped up nor unimpressed but gave a rough estimate of 5% loss/gain in hp for AI without tuning and tuning for AI.

Run 300cc of 50/50 water meth and you won't lose power. You will see a slight increase. As mentioned, how much of an increase will depend on the other variables in the turbo system (mods, boost, compression, etc.)

Much of this is going to depend on how conservative or aggressive your current tune is and how much boost you are running. Most tuners keep things conservative for their customers. Running mid to high 11's AFR on pump gas. However, once you start getting past the levels that pump can can provide, it isn't uncommon to see 10.5-11:1. Realistically, meth is a fuel, and it WILL cause a drop in your AFR's. The real variant is what AFR's you are currently running and how much meth you are adding.

This is why I recommend 300cc. It's a perfect safety net and it isn't introducing an overly large amount of fuel to the system. Larger nozzles and more aggressive setups can drop AFR's a full point. You have to consider all parts here.

To the OP, give it a go and see how it feels. Monitoring AFR's, EGT's, and AIT's will greatly help you see how the AI is affecting the system. In any case, AI is a magical thing. It is hands down the best mod you can perform for a turbo rotary.

I already chanced new plugs and wire and I have to buy the new ignition next ,whats ray crew is a company or website to buy from please?

Ray Crowe is THE parts guy at Malloy Mazda. He is awesome and knows how to get you the parts you need. His number is (888) 533-3400

Also take a look at Dale Clarks AI install write up.

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/daleclarks-aem-water-meth-install-woo-960157/page2/

Your in the UK so there not be an advantage buying from Ray. A new leading coil can be sourced at a dealership or online.

thanks for your input XLR8 :)

Ok any idea what's the part number or what's it called ?

There's some correct answers and some incorrect answers in here. Hopefully no one takes this the wrong way but here's my experience; not to be confused with an opinion.

1) Will WI reduce intake temps?

WI will cool intake temps but not a substantial about like an alcohol. Surely WI will only drop your pre-combustion temps up to a point, once your blow 100c then the waters no longer going to evaporate, no evaporation no cooling effect. The way i see it is WI is by far more useful in the rotary combustion chamber, as temp's here are over 1000c evaporation is a given, this in turn cools inside the chamber reducing those hot spots that can often cause knock. To my mind that's really the major benefit of WI, not reducing intake temps.

2) Will WI reduce power?

Well.... Yes and no. If you run it as the op would with no map changes then YES! Yes, it will reduce temps. If you tune like me or you know someone that actually knows how to tune then NO. I say no as in my experience I've found that with WI I have been able to advance my timing by up 6 degrees over peak torque.

Now, just that I'm saying this do not just go ad arbitrary timing to you map if you're running water injection! This process of adding timing is only going to work well for someone that has consistent air temperatures. If you air temp correction isn't near instant or at low variance you might find yourself knocking on the wrong door.

There's more to all of this but I just wanted to clarify these to right now.

Ok so let's clarify something because im getting confused now.
WI with no remap reduce power and low temp.
WI with remap no power reduce and low temp of course .
Is that right ?

I don't think you are disagreeing with what has already been stated, nor do I think what has been stated is inaccurate. "Water only" injection will reduce power without modification to a map that otherwise isn't setup for it. The reduction of intake temps is negligible. Waters greatest benefit lies in the combustion chamber and knock suppression, as you said.

However, the addition of methanol or "50/50" will gain back that subsequent loss. I have personally seen a 200cc nozzle of 50/50 make an otherwise stock car a bit more peppy. Yes, we are adding water, but we are also GREATLY reducing intake temps by adding methanol. The AFR's will be a little richer but the intake temps are also much cooler. As I mentioned, it depends on what spectrum of the scale you are on. If the tune is already very conservative, you could begin to see an overly rich conditions. But with a smaller nozzle, this should be less likely.

I still don't get it my car modified with 450bh ATM at 0.9 bar hks pro f con ecu,twin power ,high capacity sard fuel pump,850cc injectors all round,366 Borg warner with 88 a/r ,4 inch intercooler,koyko rardatior ,greedy down pipe 3.5 inch ,cast turbo manifold and much more
So if I just fit the kit now what's goon happen to my performance so far....

water only injection doesn't need remapping but it is more picky with rich mixtures, generally you need to run a little on the lean side to prevent ignition breakup or add an ignition amp to bump up your ignition voltage.

water+methanol/methanol does require remapping if the injector is large enough to start throwing off your AFRs.

Exactly. No matter the form of AI, if you aren't retuning the car than you should keep things light. 500+cc of any mixture introduced to the system will drop power. BUT, if you keep the nozzle small and use 50/50, you will see a slight bump without changing the tune.

The key is to experiment with nozzle sizes. Start with a 300cc and move down. There is a sweet spot where the alcohol and water are mostly evaporated (alcohol going first of course) and the effects on your AFR's are minimal. A few points AFR will not hurt anything, and the 30-50 deg cooler intake temps will make all the difference.

Adding water will lower your EGTs. It shouldn't affect your AFRs. Adding methanol will lower your IATs. It will also affect your AFRs. Add a WI kit, will make your car slower, unless your car already had a problem that made it down on power, that the water/meth kit cured. Without tuning, it will keep things safer, so it's called a safety net. Track days, hot days, long pulls, etc. If you want more power, then you increase the flow and tune for it. If you tune for it, then you need to make sure that it works, because if it stops working for any reason, then you may lose the engine. I don't know if the 2D has a failsafe built in. You will have to look into it.

Ok one minute the WI good the next is not I'm propa confused now I bought tue d2 kit already but I don't want to remap it cost me with travelling and stuff nearly 1k in pound it's a lot of money to remap stupid kit.I should bought fuel system instead ...

It will work without a tune. it will work better with a tune. A fuel system won't work without a tune.

I know but whas the point of fitting one if gonna effect the performance of the car .

^What are you planning to do with the car? What's your current list of mods? Some people add things to their cars for no reason IMO.

my car mods are 450bh ATM at 0.9 bar hks pro f con ecu,twin power ,high capacity sard fuel pump,850cc injectors all round,366 Borg warner with 88 a/r ,4 inch intercooler,koyko rardatior ,greedy down pipe 3.5 inch ,cast turbo manifold and much more..

All I need to get better temp and get everything work nice and not to much heat that's all I dont want to add more power for the kit...and I don't want to remap as well..

Honestly, you might benefit from it. It would be really careless to not get a re-tune though. Depending on what it costs around you a decent bottom line tune should be $450 around here. That's honestly what you should get with this addition, think of it as preventative maintenance.

Water cools about 5 times better than alcohol. That is how it reduces knock. The alcohols act like a octane booster which allows for more timing which allows for more aggressive tuning. They also lower the freezing temp well below 32.

Ok if I do water only with no remap would be a problem to the car in future ?

"my car mods are 450bh ATM at 0.9 bar hks pro f con ecu,twin power ,high capacity sard fuel pump,850cc injectors all round,366 Borg warner with 88 a/r ,4 inch intercooler,koyko rardatior ,greedy down pipe 3.5 inch ,cast turbo manifold and much more..

All I need to get better temp and get everything work nice and not to much heat that's all I dont want to add more power for the kit...and I don't want to remap as well.."


i will answer your question re re-tune or not but first let me ask you a question.

do i read you right that you are making 450 hp at .9 Bar and you have four 850 fuel injectors?

if that is the case i suggest you may have more important issues to consider.

i believe Europe speaks DIN rather than SAE so please allow me to adjust to SAE for a moment...

450 DIN is 439 SAE.

it takes 1.92 CFM to make one rotary SAE rwhp.

1.92 X 439 = 843 CFM

843/ 14.471 = 58.25 pounds per minute of air to make 439 SAE/450 DIN rwhp.

let's now assume you are running 11.3 AFR

58.25/ 11.3 = 5.154 pounds of fuel per minute

5.154/ 6.35 = .811 gallons of gasoline per minute or 3070 CC/Minute

so it takes 3070 CC/Min of fuel at 11.3 AFR to make 439 SAE/450 DIN rotary rwhp.

IF, i read you right....

you have 4 850 cc/min injectors.

4 X 850 = 3400 CC/Min

that is at 100% duty cycle. wide open not pulsing. overheating.

you run injectors at 85% duty cycle max unless you want trouble.

3400 X .85 = 2890 CC/Min

in addition, to get to net deliverability you need another deduct.... LAG

generally lag runs around 13%

(lag is not considered when rating injector at wide open since the slippage from opening and closing isn't happening)

so, 2890 X .87 brings you to a net fuel output from 4 850s of 2514 CC/Min

it takes 3070 of net fuel to make 450/439.

IF you have (only four 850s) and IF you are running 11.3 AFR and IF you are running 43.5 psi static fuel pressure you only have fuel to make

2514/3070 = 81.8%

.818 X 450 = 368 SAE/359 DIN
again, i am assuming only 4 injectors, an 11.3 AFR and normal fuel pressure.

if you ran a leaner AFR, say 12, you would make 391/381... but you would be running on the ragged edge at that point.

if you upped your fuel pressure 10% you would also make more power w the additional fuel but remember flow increases (only) w the square root. so a 10% increase in pressure would result in a 4.8% bump.

the primary reason i raise the fuel issue is your turbo. if you note the compressor map your turbo can make over 74 pounds of air. that's 557 SAE hp and you are tapped out on fuel miles below this number.

so IF you only have 4 850 injectors job one is to upgrade fuel capacity. you will need alot for the 366.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2334/s30066.jpg

as to your question re a retune.... it is all about BTUs

fuel has positive (power) BTUs. water has subtractive BTUs.

there are 116,090 BTUs in a gallon of gasoline.... any octane gasoline.

you are outputting 2500 CC/Min which is .664 gallons per minute.

.664 X 116,090 BTUs per gallon = 77,083 BTUs to make 368 SAE/359 DIN hp

so let's then consider the subtractive side... 100% water injection

400 CC/Min of water is .105 gallons per minute

.105 X 8087 cooling BTUs per gallon = 849 subtractive BTUs

849/77,083 = 1.1%

given water effects your BTUs 1.1% there is no need to change your tune...

while were on the subject, many wonder about a 50/50 water meth combo which is, after 8 years of running, eating sleeping AI, what i strongly recommend...

again, look at the BTUs to find your answers:

a gallon of 50/50 (based on volume, not weight) WM:

water 4043 subtractive BTUs
Meth 28625 positive BTUs

net: a gallon of 50 50 Water Meth adds 24582 Fuel (additive) BTUs

using 400 cc.min...

24,582 X .105 = 2581 BTUs

2581/ 77,083 = 3.35%

so if you run WM 50 50 and your AFR is 11.30, if you add 400 CC of WM your AFR will be change to 10.92 AFR

please do let us know on your injectors and any other relevant info.

howard

I was wondering when you were going to chime in, Howard. Lol.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using RX7Club

Thanks a lot pal fr explaining everyitng in order but that's a lot for me to take and understand because I'm not rotary expert at all but I know the mods on my car and stuff ,the injectors are 850cc all round as my ex tuner told me but I don't know how far I can push my car to take more power ,but I'm happy with what I got ATM and the main reason I bought aquamist d2 kit is to cool things down in engine and keep the car happy with low heat so can I do that with 50/50 mix and no remap?

Thanks.

^Agreed. I'm sure I agree with everything Howard Coleman said too, but my small brain needs to read through it a few times to digest it completely.
Regardless, methanol is best at cooling intake temps. Water has greater 'Specific Heat' and is best at cooling the combustion chamber. You DO NOT need to tune to it. In fact I'd discourage it. IMO Water is for safety, cooling and longevity. That said, it's been my experience that with a decent nozzle that's properly sized according to HC's formula you won't perceive a power loss. I speculate that even though methanol is better at cooling IATs, there is still some cooling with water, which may partially off-set whatever power loss there might have been otherwise. Someone here mentioned 5%. OK, maybe...but it didn't show up in a butt dyno.
IMO you also don't need any ignition amplification. I'm running an M3 nozzle, straight water on a boost activated system at ~ 2 psi, wth stock coils and stock heat ranges...and have never had ignition break-up. But temp spiking after periods of boost has all but disappeared, knock levels were reduced noticibly and the plugs have stayed cleaner longer even though I run the OMP with pre-mix.

Brilliant that's what I want to see great advice guys thanks a lot.

"I'm running an M3 nozzle, straight water on a boost activated system at ~ 2 psi, wth stock coils and stock heat ranges...and have never had ignition break-up."

an M3 nozzle flows 3 gallons per hour or 189 CC/Min. i doubt that amount of water would cause an ignition problem but i don't doubt it will help your motor a bunch and also keep the carbon build up to a minimal amount.

howard