Buyer Beware
 

Just a couple of words of warning to those buying FD's..
Sorry about the post length.. I don't mean to go off on a rant here, but...........

#1 Most owners will Lie. About most things regarding the car. Period. About mods, racing it, performance, maintenance history. If they are selling it, its usually for a reason, and not a good one. Did I say usually? Good now I cant get flamed because "blank" had to sell his car for a kidney transplant... Be especially aware if, after the sale is completed, they have a whole spare set of wheels that they'll just throw in.. Extra wheels generally means weekend autocross/racing, and a much higher chance of abuse..

(Of course, there is the exception, such as the autocrosser/racer who takes better care of his car than his kids.. 1 in a million) I know I'll get flamed for #1, because "Blank" takes fanatical care of the car,runs a 40gallon radiator/cooling system, changes oil every 100,000 RPM or some crap... so sell me that car :)

#2 Mileage and reciepts. Doesn't matter as much as you would think. My car had a reciept for a RP rebuild less than 20k miles ago, and 1500-2000 mile oil changes. Motor has bad water seals. (IE Bubbles in coolant) Could last forever, could die tomorrow. point is, it was abused..... Mileage won't matter if its been abused, overboosted, underfueled or overheated

#3 Inspect engine bay carefully for telltale signs. Missing bolts, fixed/replaced/different harnesses, glove boxes that are open a hair more on the left than the right, tiny little vampire holes in wires from those dumbass cheesy plastic wiretaps. Most installs leave a trace, or people forget to save older bolts, mouts etc etc. had I looked more carefully, I would have seen the signs of: F-con, EVC, FMIC, TT, Intake, BOV, Cat Back and strangely enough, the ECU looked untampered with, like it had never been unplugged/removed (sigh)... Not to mention the K&N drop in and front pipe replacement that was disclosed. Now hows that for a car that "never had any mods"?

#4 When you test drive, test drive at least one time ice cold. Dont let them drive to meet you, and show up 1/2 hour or so early to make sure they don't warm it up first. A lot of serious issues can be masked and appear minute once the car is warmed up (Cold start difficulties-duh, Shifting, cold oil pressure, increased emissions/Smoke, RPM )

Perhaps I am being a bit harsh because of todays news about the water seals, but I looked around for 5 months before I bought this car. Almost every one lied about history/mods. One guy left the solenoid for the EVC installed, but had "never had a boost controller on it" Most I saw were so ragged out I wouldnt have bought them to strip and rebuild! This one was different. It was the cleanest of the bunch, owned by an older guy (2nd Owner) but was misrepresented very badly. I checked it out pretty good. I am satisfied I did my part. I have spoken with several people that know the car/guy. heh some have bought the old parts from him/ others remember it with certain mods. If this was a house I'd have his ass, but in California, its Caveat Emptor for cars.... Oh well my bad. My Dogma will pee on his Karma and beat up his cat.

There is nothing wrong with the longetivity of a rotary engine I personally have had a 1st gen go 224,000 before it broke, and theres debate on whether that was my fault or not....( i mean, *I* shifted on time, my tach was sluggish.. ;) )

The problem lies in the maintenance and operation of the vehicle

Just be careful. Take your time. I hate to have a fellow FD'er get that sinking feeling like today, when you overhear the tech say " Did you tell him about his engine yet?" heh I could almost feel the card swell up and max out, and it was still in my wallet!

Caveat Emptor. Even if I do sound like Mike Brady.

Richard
93 MBM Touring

No doubt about it...

i drive my car hard.. but then again it gets new oil ever 2000 miles religiously!

not a bad post
 

not a bad post at all good advice to those newbies out there...:D

If I read your post correctly, it's your water seals that went bad and that's why you're pissed. If it's any consolation, I think the coolant seals are the one real design flaw-achilles heel-couldn't see it coming-can't do much about it-engine killer with these cars.

I hear so many people talking about their frequent oil changes, but it's usually blown coolant seals that get them in the end. And it's not just abusers who blow their seals (yeah, no eskimo jokes please). I've seen posts from meticulous owners who have done everything right who feel the rotary gods are out to get them.

So it may not be the previous owner's fault. Were there bubbles in the coolant when you bought the car? If there were, why didn't you catch them? If there weren't, then you can't really blame the seller.

There are a number of things to be checked with these cars, but many of them are not too hard to fix. I would advise anyone buying a used FD to put two things at the top of the list. Bad turbos which are leaking oil or have some other serious problem, and water seals which are leaking, putting exhaust gases in the coolant, or blowing a lot of white smoke out the tailpipe.

Hehe i'm in the same boat as you, my coolant seals went as well.

Re: Buyer Beware
 

I don't AutoX but have a spare set of stock wheels laying around just cause I like to keep all my old parts... heh I guess I should sell them seperately w/o the buyer seeing them? I don't think the assumption that a spare set of rims = AutoX is valid... I know a lot of guys just keep their stock rims after buying a nice set of aftermarket rims.

now Im scared to buy an fd =[

Re: Buyer Beware
 

welcome to the world of used car

:D :D

Alpine said it very well. Most of what was listed goes across the board when buying a turbo'd import from a private party.

Just give it time and wait for the right one to come around. It will come believe me, I've waited for about 2+ years and the one I am getting is a Godsend. Right at the absolute perfect time as well, I couldn't be happier. And if you've done your research you shouldn't be scared, just knowledgeable about what you need to do to buy the right FD and keep it running properly.

Re: Re: Buyer Beware
 

Yeah but this car has stock wheels.... I totally agree with you, if you have aftermarket wheels

Nice post
 

I was reluctant as well. I looked for like 6 months. I was going to rebuild a 93 for only $8,000 but procrastinated. Everyone said don't do it, wish I did! The engine was allready rebuilt but didn't start. Anybody here buy that one in San Diego (was a Texas car)?

Then the 1st working car I looked at seemed too good to be true, but I think he was the only one that didn't lie. :( ...Anyone buy a '94 White touring with only 19,000 mi from the Valley?

I even flew to WV, NC and GA, then finaly bought one in WA state. Oh well, still cheaper than the '69 Corvette Stingray that I allways wanted..

Problem above just started. Though it hasn't overheated on me. Does this intitle a rebuild or is there an other fix? Thanks! :(

So with all that being said about blowing coolant seals, do any of you use De-ionized or distilled water in your RAD ??

Very detailed article indeed...however, assuming there was one in the market with 40,000 miles....with service records on seals and what-not....

*I am going over to check the car...is there a guideline by which I have to follow? besides, starting out the car cold?*

I figured that this might be a good time to ask....also, should I take it to an Independent Mechanic to check on the compression tests?

Any input is kindly appreciated....just wanna make sure I hit at least a 85% check before sliding into the 15% to realize that I shoulda check on something else..

Everyone should change their coolant once a year. Keeps your system from becoming acidic.

Rexdex and 7th Heaven, I'm not an expert here, but I'll answer your questions the best I can. I'm sure others will chime in with better answers. You should also do a search on the forum and check out the robinette site until you feel all your questions are exhausted.

http://www.rx7turboturbo.com/robrobinette/

And here's specific information on O-ring failure:

http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/o-ring_failure.html


If your seals are just starting to leak you may be able to drive the car for some time before your engine goes completely. There's a block weld additive some have tried which seems it may cure the problem at least temporarily. Again, do a search on the Forum for better info. When the inevitable rebuild comes, there are aftermarket seals which are said to correct the design flaw which you should install.
There's no easy way to fix the coolant seals. It means taking the engine out of the car and disassembling it.
If you're inspecting a car to buy, the 2 main signs I'm aware of which indicate coolant seal leaks are lots of white smoke in the exhause on a cold startup. (You'll also be able to smell that sweet coolant smell.) And exhaust gases present in the coolant. Testers for exhaust gas are available at many auto parts stores.

I feel your pain. I'm in the same boat myself. Bought the car last July, coolant seals failed this month. I absolutely never overheated while I owned it. But I also never shy away from racing, whether it be drag racing, autocrossing, or track days. So maybe that's the price I pay. Give the K&W block weld a try. You don't have anything to lose. I was completely emptying my Pettit AST into my overflow on a daily basis, and having flooded sounding starts. So far with the block weld it's been starting well again and my AST's still full (after three days). Looks like it'll buy me some time to save for (and research) a new engine.

Unfortunately I didn't know crap about these cars before I bought mine. I read the "How to buy a used RX7" and then rushed into it. I felt like I had found a good deal on a car that was in my town so I jumped on it. Not something I necessarily regret after reading how few R1s/2s are out there. Ever since I've been spending hours a day on this forum soaking up every tidbit I can and would be in a much better position to pick out a used one now. I just wasn't willing to invest this much time before I bought it. You really don't learn things until they break on you.

Best of luck to you, and on the bright side it looks like new engines aren't the end of the world. Replace it, and take care of it, and you'll probably never have to go through this again. Plus, as others have said, it's the perfect excuse to get a performance engine. Fortunately I was able to drive the car long enough that I've fallen in love with it and jaded my reaction to this whole engine replacement thing. When it's right, it's fast! I liked when I actually had to stop and think for a second when my buddy asked me "what are you likely to see on the street that can beat you." .....ummm, another RX-7! ;)

Well u should have did what I have done. when I was looking to buy the 93 I had 3 options. 1- Buy it from a dealer and spend alot of cash to buy it and replace the engine later. Or 2, buy it from a owner who might lie like a bitch that he replace everything from the dealer and end up replacing everypart of the car oh yeah paid him like $20.000 for it too. Now on my 3rd options buy a repairable or salavage title and pay less and buy a dealer shop manual to show u how to work on the car. Hey I had 12 first gen before I went brought my 93 but, the 93 it's totally different to work on coming from a mechanic point of view. Also I am happy that I brought my 93 salavage because I had replace the engine and turbo jsut like buying it from the dealer but pay alot less and smile everytime someone say they paid $15-20.000 for their's. good luck trying to get it running right.

<<quote<<<<Plus, as others have said, it's the perfect excuse to get a performance engine. Fortunately I was able to drive the car long enough that I've fallen in love with it and jaded my reaction to this whole engine replacement thing. When it's right, it's fast! I liked when I actually had to stop and think for a second when my buddy asked me "what are you likely to see on the street that can beat you." .....ummm, another RX-7! >>>>>>>



a beautiful saying.......

i know a guy who bought a salvage title FD to save money, and the good thing was when he fixed it up the ins. company estimated the value at $17,860

Explain the water bubbles in the coolant symptom

With the car cool, take the cap off to the coolant neck (the non-pressurized cap). Then start the car, and if your seals are bad you'll see small bubbles. You can also take the hose off the AST that goes to the overflow bottle, and put another hose on there going into some water. Once the car warms up, if it keeps blowing air out, ya got problems. Now that it's after the fact for me, I've learned those would be pretty easy free tests to do even in someone's driveway on a potential buy.

This would be a good thread to archive.

haha his name is bicuspid. i donno, do only fuckers like me who have to get root canals know what that is?

Unfortunately: I think the only REAL qualified FD buyers out there are current or previous FD owners.

two cents or more

any rotary can last a shi%load of miles if it isnt TWIN FARKING TURBO. haha

its the heat or the fuel probs that kill these suckers...or as common sense would say..its the high horsepower.

honestly though..Id rather buy a car with a good IC, Radiator, ECU, Downpipe, Hosejob, Y pipe, Aluminum AST, Catback and Guage cluster than one that had the same miles and was bone stock. The stock car has way too many design flaws. Youll blow the shit up because you pay attention to the stock crap temp guage instead of your own warm feet cooking from the engine bay heat after hard driving.. (i.e coolant seals charbroiling. . .and side seals....rotor damage...housing damage... eventually leading to thousands of dollas spent) . those mods above can save that from happening if the owner is smart enuff or poor enuff to run those mods for that safe reason. If that is the mod list then its worth having because its obvious that the owner was educated.

the owner that runs his dream machine at the autocross because he read about it's performance in a magazine...and before he knew squat about it, how to drive it, or how to mod it shall find out things the hard way....the more expensive way...and often the way to learn for himself....if his pocket book can hold on for the ride then his car will kick ass and he will have some good experience with the machine. Research....and listening can go a long way to the bank however.

good luck all...

still trying to follow my own advice...


j

I just wanted to second what the guy in the
first post said.
CAR SELLERS ARE EVIL BASTARDS!!

Some might recall my story from a while ago,
some might not.
But anyways, I situation, except mine was much
worse(mainly due to my luck, and lack of proper precautions).

Basicaly I bought an FD a while ago,
and looked it over myself. The exterior was very nice
interior was very nice(but needed some cleanin).
I looked in the engine bay for leakin oil it was very clean(hehe, the fucker steamcleaned it). I hooked up a boost guage, it was boosting fine.

So i shelled out 14 grand.

1 day later, a vacuum hose popped off and i practically shat myself, so i take it to an awsome mechanic who rules the rotary.
He fixes the hose(yay..) and tells me whats up with the car.
It's been totaled and the front end was completely rebuilt, and it had been in an engine fire, and the cooling system was fuct up.

So i think to my self(after thoroughly wetting my pants)
i should take another look at the title... so i do, and what do I see?... SALVAGED !!! at which point i think all my bodily fluids left my ass.

Basically this guy fed me a huge load of BS about
how the car runs perfect and hes had it for years without any problems, when in fact he just bought it
at a salvage auction a few months prior. Plus he
gave me a nice fake adress and information so i cant
find him to beat the snot out of im.

long story short, the engine blew soon after, and i sold it for 5k.

Moral of this story: always run a carfax.

Amen to the carfax, brother. I want to thank everyone for their invaluable input into this thread. I'm not a FD rookie but never plan to stop learning about the FD. Thanks again.:cool:

carfax is NOT reliable. i know people who've been in accidents and had major repairs done to their cars and the carfax reports NO accidents. one guy i know had 3 accidents on his prelude and the carfax was still clean. the same with my fd (the owner was actually honest about this).

about buying a fd, i just bought one a few days ago. very impulsive, spur of the moment. i did do my research to know that fds have problems, so i knew that coming in. but i got suckered in because these cars look so great.

definitely do not get this car is you cannot afford to spend big bucks on it or (as in my case) you have a reliable daily driver so that worst comes to worst your fd will just sit there looking pretty.

gf and others have given me a lot of heat about buying a unreliable car that requires so much maintainence. the only thing i can say is yes, it's not the most financially responsible decision i've made, but hey, there's like less than 6,000 of these babies on the road!!!!

this is great information for first-time buyers

But, even so , this only lists a few things. mostly things that give signs of abuse/mods.

Always ask around for a rotary mechanic in the area to check it out. Even if the car has been babied, surely the mechanic can find something. It could be major or minor.

Even if you want to still buy the car, what the mechanic says can drive down the price. You could find little mechanical problems that can be used in negotiations for price.

Good luck buyers :)

Good advice but here's my suggestion. When you buy an FD, always consider the price of replacing the engine. You never know what you are going to get, so make sure you can afford a new motor.

2nd, I have 2 sets of stock wheels. The main reason is that my originals were scraped up and needed paint. I got a second set from an FD with 18,000 mi. And yes I've autocrossed it a couple of times. That doesn't mean much if you take care of it properly. It is easier to do more damage to the motor by running it hard when cold and just plain beating the crap out of it daily. Usually you drive to the autocross and the motor is warmed up. The thing you're most likely to do is warp the rotors from braking hard and sitting to the next round...

I think starting the car from cold is important. They managed to get away with this on me and I've had both an FB and FC. Many FD's will smoke when cold started so many people just run it for a few minutes before the buyer comes over...

Just wanted to add that carfax IS very imporant,
it is true that there are alot of things that wont
go on a carfax report(dont rely on carfax alone)
but IF there is something, it will be HUGE
and if you miss it your SCREWED.

Before I bought my RX-7 I did the usual research for about a year. When I finally found one it only took me 2 days to decide. The inside was sharp and there were only a few minor dings in the hood. I did notice the massive oil residue in the engine bay and on the transmission. For the price this didn't sway my decision, I knew there would be a new engine in my future. Now I'm replacing the motor and I still love my car.

After the carfax returned only a fail in emissions ( no cats) and a check on the boost/vac, i bought my FD. It only took me a measly 9 months to find one that was worth buying. Patience is a virtue.
Moral of the story-Dont just buy the first one u see.

I waited almost 1 1/2 years to buy mine, and i still ended up getting a lemon. God knows i looked over the motor, and test drove the car, idle tested it after a 3 hour drive, took the car into a shop and had it lifted up on a lift to check for chassis repairs, etc.

Everything looked Kosher, so i dropped the 13k for my car. Now im happy to say every cold morning, my car smokes more than Patty and Selma from the simpsons. Coincidently everytime i arrived to scope out the car, the previous owner had just gotten off of work. . ..

Anywoo, heres my 2 cents from what i have personally learned. Even if you get a compression test, and show up unannounced, the truth wont always be revealed until after you drop 5 years of saving from balancing college/rent. But then again, the best part of owning an FD is learning what the car is all about, and going through the trials and tribulations with your car. It sorta makes you feel "one" with it.

If i could do it all over again, i'd still buy my current car, as i have learned more than i ever would have with my old 240sx. Sorta like a Supermodel girlfriend, you always have to get things for her, spend tons of money. But when she puts out, yer always happy and beg for more :)

Hey Gordon, that thought never occurred to me until you just posted it. I always heard that any car that has been in a previous wreck will never handle/accelerate/perform as good as it "could" have if the car was never wrecked, but i thought that was just idle chatter or wives tales. . . Also, is it just limited to structural damage? i.e. fender crushes or front fascia indentation (but no apparent signs of underbody stretching to original specs like in totals and salvage titles?)

I have disagree with those saying carfax is 100% true. I have family members who own car dealerships and they know ways of changing a salvage car into a clean title one :D. It'll still say accident or whatever, but it just wont be salvaged

No kidding. I'm a potential buyer (saving $$ for a buy this winter), and I read and read, but there's no way for me to _get to know the car_ - what is normal, not normal, etc without having an engine bay in front of me.

Dave

I've thought about doing this - leaving a blown car with KD Rotary and saying "do your magic", but...

Doesn't a blown engine indicate other components are maybe shot or abused? I can fix stuff, and I don't mind spending time on it, but is a well-repaired rebuild going to be trouble because of the abused components that didn't get replaced? In other words, which components outside the engine itself will also need replaced and about how much $$ would you plan?


Dave

Man i feel your pain. I took my time also before i bought my 94, and still the seals went two months later. Just goes to show how hard it is to predict what is going to happen when u buy an fd. But i did go into the purchase knowing full well a new motor would more than likely be needed sooner or later so it wasnt much as a surprise when it did. you will just have to come up with the 3 or 4 grand to replace it with. The 93 that i have now is stock except a dp and am very happy with the purchase i made.

I didn't read past the first few posts, but the reason I think that people have problems with the coolant seals is because you are supposed to change coolant every 6 months.

How many of you do that? how about the origional owner?

What's wrong with the glovebox being open more on left than right?

Now I just got my rotary about 4 months ago, but all this talk about white smoke coming out of the tailpipe on a cold startup is scaring me a bit.

I live in MD (where it is currently 0 degrees) and when I start her up in the morning there is a breif puff of white smoke then she starts spewing exhaust like she is farting nimbus clouds. To the best of my knowledge (and thats not much) - these emissions are exhaust, not smoke.

The exhaust does not smell like anything but... well exhaust. However I read a post recently saying this was just a part of the normal cold start process - something about burning water and it turning to team.

After about 1 or 2 minutes of this she settles in nicely and purrs like a kitten.

Oh yeah - no coolant/oil/or any other fluid leaks here (except what I leak into my shorts when I stomp the gas in 3rd).

Someone plese tell me i'm paranoid

same here...

You're paranoid. :)

I need to ask though: what does this, or especially ubernoober's post, have to do with the topic of the thread?

**Reads username (coincidence?). Chuckles at the fact that this thread was brought back from the dead ...for a question that hardly goes with the topic but will keep the thread alive for another 3 pages....**

:)

Its like this. I think if all of us would of known the probelms we would have with our FD's, we would of prob never bought them. But once you have one you never want to get rid of it. I guess like Jay would say, its a Gift and a Curse.

I suppose nothing - but thanks for the comfort.... I almost cried like a baby.

Been looking for a year, almost two. I have to agree with the poster above who said, "factor in the cost of a replacement engine."

I have come to the conclusion that anyone who pays book value or more for these monsters is digging his own grave. I believe the last time I looked at KBB the cost of a decent 94 was about $14,000. I have made up my mind. I would never pay more than $9,000. I have owned an 83 RX-7 purchased new, followed by a new 91 RX7. The only two real cars I have ever owned in my life. Think about, 22 years driving rotary engined cars. They were great. I dreamed of owning a 94. But the fact is, the car in the current market is a ripoff. Unless, of course, you are hobbiest who has no limits as to how much you have to spend on your hobby. Good luck all. I'm saving for a new 350Z - or maybe the next Supra. (I have also come to the conclusion, watching the RX-8 club forum, that those cars, as well, are time bombs waiting to go off.) Hopefully, my FC will last another year so I can save up for the downpayment.