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BNR stage 3 turbos
Can you still use the air pump for emissions ?
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Thinking about switching after all these years? AFAIK, you can. Though, I have not attempted to do so.
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It's for a California car...I also haven't ruled them out for myself as my stock single bit the dust last week. Mesquito trucks would have had envy on that day.
So you can run the air pump? I assume you run them what power are you making if I may ask and what injectors are you using? |
Yes you can.
John |
Meant to say...
It's for a California car...I also haven't ruled them out for myself as my stock twins bit the dust last week. Mesquito trucks would have had envy on that day. |
Hmmm...
Originally Posted by RR
I suggest you do not stick with twins, I have tested every type www.riceracing.com.au (look under VBOX testing page).
The BNR's are the worst of the upgrade twin turbo's, the turbine wheels are too large and they are laggy and have the narrowest power band of them all. The best are the knight Sports RF420, but they are very fragile! Aftermarket T28 BB upgrades are as bad as the BNR's for response and power band, but at least they are reliable. I suggest you go single turbo, look at my site for graphic real world testings as to why power and reliability all in one, with widest power band and least expense long term |
You can use BNRs with any of the emissions stuff they are a direct swap for the stockers.
I don't have any personal experience but I have never heard of BNRs having any problem with reliability. They will have a touch more lag than the stocks because of the larger compressors. Though I have also never heard of anyone getting BNRs much over 18-19psi either so that may be all they can make. I have read claims that BNRs are suppose to be reliable up to around 22psi or so but as I said I have never heard of them making that much. |
Originally Posted by RotoryDreamer
(Post 10756135)
You can use BNRs with any of the emissions stuff they are a direct swap for the stockers.
I don't have any personal experience but I have never heard of BNRs having any problem with reliability. They will have a touch more lag than the stocks because of the larger compressors. Though I have also never heard of anyone getting BNRs much over 18-19psi either so that may be all they can make. I have read claims that BNRs are suppose to be reliable up to around 22psi or so but as I said I have never heard of them making that much. |
Does anybody have a 400 rwhp dyno on these? I want to look at the curve.
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Rich(GoodfellasFD3s) made 4xxHP(426?) on BNR Twins. I'm sure he'd chew the fat with you about them.
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https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...light=bnr+dyno
not sure if image link will work but here is goodfellas non-seq. https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...0&d=1121047623 |
Here is sequential
Originally Posted by rynberg
(Post 5254652)
Alright, I was waiting to start a thread, but I'll post a dyno sheet here...:)
This is at 13-13.5 psi with: *mild streetport *BNR Stage 3 sequential *intake *res midpipe *RB exhaust *PFS SMIC *9 plugs all around *HKS TP I had ignition breakup. The car is tuned for very safe running on 91 octane - conservative timing and AFRs in the high 10s:1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nojet_0001.jpg As you can see, I probably would have made 5-8 more rwhp without breakup and it holds that power from 6500-8000 rpm. Given my increase in rwhp per psi, I would estimate that I will make 370-375 rwhp at 15 psi with a very safe and conservative tune. The turbos and engine should last a long time at those power levels. I also have water injection to further reduce chance of detonation. I will probably only run 10-11 psi at the track -- while still making 308-320 rwhp. :) If I went balls out and ran 17-18 psi on 100 octane, I should be able to hit 400 rwhp with a safe conservative tune. But I don't run 100 octane on the street, so it ain't gonna happen right now. :) |
Originally Posted by limepro
(Post 10757000)
Here is sequential
I have a Innovatice wide-band and datalogit. Can I use your map as a baseline ? Thanks, :-) neil |
Subscribed. I'm also looking at getting stage 3 BNRS. Keep the info comming.
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Originally Posted by M104-AMG
(Post 10757333)
I'm also going to do a sequential setup with my BNR's. I'll be running 850cc primaries, and 1300cc secondaries, with a street-port, HKS TP, and water-injection, with a PFC.
I have a Innovatice wide-band and datalogit. Can I use your map as a baseline ? Thanks, :-) neil |
I've personally owned them. They are at worste a touch laggier than stock ( sequential ). If you were going to go non sequential I'd strongly advise spending a more $$ and go single.
I had mine running 17psi and they were a freaking blast. I had 1300 injectors for secondaries and ran out of fuel or I would have went higher. I also had my air pump and cat installed. |
i have BNR's sitting on my desk at work. can't wait to install them.
ps- it's INNOVATE not "innovative" (wideband) not sure why everyone has that confused... |
Originally Posted by Double_J
(Post 10757395)
....I had mine running 17psi and they were a freaking blast.
It's an all around great setup that's reliable and hard to beat. (And passes Cali smog if that's important to you.) |
Originally Posted by Speed of light
(Post 10757985)
+1--I can confirm the foregoing. I have a similar setup and its sequential. It has great lowend and at 17+ lbs it's an absolute beast. :egrin:
It's an all around great setup that's reliable and hard to beat. (And passes Cali smog if that's important to you.) |
My friend Greg has BNR's with an air pump and high flow cat. Its a California car. Might even pass smog. Its a mild street port rebuild with about 2500 miles on it. He is getting ready to tune. The car runs good, isn't too loud, and doesn't stink.
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Originally Posted by Mr rx-7 tt
(Post 10757996)
Did you run 850 primaries with a PFC and pass Ca. smog?
The stock 550's pass even with a large street port--so long as the air injection, ignition and CAT are working properly. Hope this helps. |
Originally Posted by Speed of light
(Post 10758365)
Not with the 850's--it was close, but the HC's were a bit too high; it might work with a brand new cat. It otherwise ran & idled ok. This seems to be an atomization issue related to the 850's, not an ECU problem. (I don't use a PFC. )
The stock 550's pass even with a large street port--so long as the air injection, ignition and CAT are working properly. Hope this helps. |
Originally Posted by Mr rx-7 tt
(Post 10758582)
We can get it to pass with the 550's and the large street port we have. I would like to put the BNR's on the car and get more power but with stock 550's we run out of fuel and are boost limited. Not much of a gain versus the stock twins. Now if I can get the car to pass with 850's it's worth it. I wonder if it's possible to go bigger on the secondaries than the 1300's with the stock rail...
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Originally Posted by rx7 SE
(Post 10759851)
Where in VA are you that you have to pass emissions? Just moved
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I was wondering what kind of finishes are available and how much they cost? Finishes like polished or maybe a ceramic coating.
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Originally Posted by Double_J
(Post 10757395)
I've personally owned them. They are at worste a touch laggier than stock ( sequential ). If you were going to go non sequential I'd strongly advise spending a more $$ and go single.
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Originally Posted by moehler
(Post 10769425)
I think this is the key to being happy with BNRs (or twins in general)... Keep them sequential.
If you want non sequential go single. You can also push them MUCH higher that the stockers due to the 360* bearing. It's fuel and knock that will stop you with the bnr's. |
Any one have dyno chart for BNR sequential at 16-18 psi ?
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Originally Posted by SkulkR1
(Post 10770618)
Any one have dyno chart for BNR sequential at 16-18 psi ?
What is the max hp and psi BNR's have ran in SEQUENTIAL form???????? |
Originally Posted by Speed of light
(Post 10758365)
Not with the 850's--it was close, but the HC's were a bit too high; it might work with a brand new cat. It otherwise ran & idled ok. This seems to be an atomization issue related to the 850's, not an ECU problem. (I don't use a PFC. )
The stock 550's pass even with a large street port--so long as the air injection, ignition and CAT are working properly. Hope this helps. |
Originally Posted by Mr rx-7 tt
(Post 10786651)
How close? Did you try and pass with a power FC ?
With the 850's in the primary the HC's were about 100ppm or so too high, CO was .27%-->.57% (ok to slightly rich), NOx was okay. Used a stock ECU in O2 feedback. Did not try a PFC. Switching to the 550's cleaned up the HC's without further ado. With some fiddling, it may be possible to get 850's to pass; with a really good, hot cat, plenty of AIR and maybe leaning the mixture just a bit to bring the CO down slightly. This assumes that everything else is up to par. |
Originally Posted by NVMYRX-7
(Post 10770796)
^^x2
What is the max hp and psi BNR's have ran in SEQUENTIAL form???????? Once I dyno my car w/ the BNRs stage 3 s and a very large street port plus all the supporting mods I will post my results. I am shooting for hopefully 400 rwhp, possibly a little over depending on if fuel will limit me. |
I was seeing 440 to 450 on a G-tech I borrowed. That is with the older style BNR-3's in sequential at about 17-->18# boost.
The motor has a Pineapple large street port and fuel was just about at the limit with 850/1300's + a supra pump. I also run water injection as a precaution. The turbine scrolls and exhaust manifold have been ported and received flow bench work. The result seems to be pretty good. I have not attempted to run higher boost to date due to the limitation of the stock 2 bar map sensor. The car is my primary DD and this has proved to be a potent, reliable and very fun combination. Hard to beat the right-now response of the sequential for spirited daily driving. Now I really need to turn my attention to larger/better tires to hook it up. :) |
:scratch:At what psi will you need to upgrade your primary injectors when running the bnr's sequentially?? I'm about to upgrade to these turbos with a streetport and I'm trying to figure out if the secondaries are the only ones that need to be upgraded... :scratch:
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speed of light, IIRC the stock map sensor maxes out around 16.2 psi, i dont see how you can be running those boost levels with the oem unit.
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I had 550/1300/rewired supra pump and was pretty much out of fuel. I think around 17psi you need to go larger or add meth to compensate.
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I ran 550s and 1680s with a supra pump (rewired but not the best way to do it for max voltage to the pump), and only 36 psi base fp, and was seeing max inj duty cycle of 96 at 6400rpm with max boost about 21 psi (24455 pim) then falling off to 17-18psi with the stock turbos non seq. dynoed at 411. Your base fuel pressure makes a difference, you can turn it up a little and retune to lower your inj. duty cycle, I should have ran more base fp at the time, recently turned it up to 40 for my single. Also your tune if it's rich makes a big difference in idc.
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I had 550/1300/rewired supra pump and was pretty much out of fuel. I think around 17psi you need to go larger or add meth to compensate. I ran 550s and 1680s with a supra pump (rewired but not the best way to do it for max voltage to the pump), and only 36 psi base fp, and was seeing max inj duty cycle of 96 at 6400rpm with max boost about 21 psi (24455 pim) then falling off to 17-18psi with the stock turbos non seq. dynoed at 411. Your base fuel pressure makes a difference, you can turn it up a little and retune to lower your inj. duty cycle, I should have ran more base fp at the time, recently turned it up to 40 for my single. Also your tune if it's rich makes a big difference in idc. |
Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
(Post 10788317)
speed of light, IIRC the stock map sensor maxes out around 16.2 psi, i dont see how you can be running those boost levels with the oem unit.
This particular map sensor tests good to about 17.5# vs. lab grade instrumentation. I've checked it several times and it's remained stable over several years. Beyond that, it obviously can't add fuel; however, I've used an external gauge with peak hold to set, determine and monitor max boost. Boost creep hasn't been a problem for me and with water injection and a J & S, I haven't worried about it too much. Of course, I'm tempted to install a 3 Bar and further increase the boost; not sure how much that would be worth, however, running the 91 pump here may just be pushing my luck. After all, this is my daily ride.... There may be a significant variation on the production map sensors as to their max reading or calibration; I've only tested a couple of them under controlled conditions--and they were similar. This being at sea level. Joe |
If you really wanted to run another 2-3 psi of boost, just add 2.5 to all the cells across p19 22000pim in the base map (if you have datalogit and wideband dataloging) and turn up your boost slowly until you get your desired afr with a safety margin, it will be really rich until the boost is turned up enough. Especially if you have a electronic boost controller with a boost warning/limiter feature so you can set that to 19 or 20 psi so you won't overboost. I know this isn't a good way to do it haha, and it's much better to get a 3 bar map sensor (I got the apexi plug and play 3 bar), but just saying.. I think I actually did a little bit of this before getting the 3 bar map sensor. With the stock sensor if I remember correctly it would go to p19 with 17-18 psi being the most it would read. If you have wi and the conservative base pfc leading timing map and 12-14 split you should be okay. I can guarantee you that you will feel the extra power from that 2-3 extra psi, preferably in colder weather.
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I'm currently running non-sequential BNR's at 18.5 psi. I'm going to push these turbos to the limit this weekend and then get the car dynoed in a week to see how much power it makes. I'll report back with the results when I get off the dyno.
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Originally Posted by Speed of light
(Post 10788143)
I was seeing 440 to 450 on a G-tech I borrowed. That is with the older style BNR-3's in sequential at about 17-->18# boost.
The motor has a Pineapple large street port and fuel was just about at the limit with 850/1300's + a supra pump. I also run water injection as a precaution. The turbine scrolls and exhaust manifold have been ported and received flow bench work. The result seems to be pretty good. I have not attempted to run higher boost to date due to the limitation of the stock 2 bar map sensor. The car is my primary DD and this has proved to be a potent, reliable and very fun combination. Hard to beat the right-now response of the sequential for spirited daily driving. Now I really need to turn my attention to larger/better tires to hook it up. :) |
Originally Posted by Mr rx-7 tt
(Post 10792142)
Are you running 18 lbs on Cali. 91 octane with water inj.?
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Originally Posted by Speed of light
(Post 10792210)
Yes. I would not attempt that level of boost on pump without water.
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Stage III BNR Turbo Dyno
1 Attachment(s)
I thought some people might want to see a dyno of these Turbos running sequential. My CYM is running 50/50 water/meth @ 1.35 Bar & 93 octane. I guess we could have run some race gas for more power but this was good enough. My brother Chris built the motor & spent considerable effort & time building a strong sequential car (good job & thanks Mr. RX-7 TT ;o)
The car pulled 432 rwhp but it was on a different pull - this one is close enough. Cheers. -Matt |
amazing numbers, you should start a build thread.
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Originally Posted by Yellow R1
(Post 11037848)
I thought some people might want to see a dyno of these Turbos running sequential. My CYM is running 50/50 water/meth @ 1.35 Bar & 93 octane. I guess we could have run some race gas for more power but this was good enough. My brother Chris built the motor & spent considerable effort & time building a strong sequential car (good job & thanks Mr. RX-7 TT ;o)
The car pulled 432 rwhp but it was on a different pull - this one is close enough. Cheers. -Matt This may be my favorite CYM EVER:egrin:!
Originally Posted by wutangben
(Post 11037962)
amazing numbers, you should start a build thread.
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How much boost on the primary turbo?
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Originally Posted by NVMYRX-7
(Post 11038126)
YES FINALLY a sequential build with BNR's :icon_tup: I will be going for 400 rwhp and now I have proof that it's possilbe!
My exact plan and thoughts too, I think the BNR's will easily do over 400 in sequential, and I mean, who needs more power then that with that kind of torque curve...? Lol I have the first gen BNR's so I might not hit over 400, but I'll get close... :D J. |
Originally Posted by djseven
(Post 11038179)
How much boost on the primary turbo?
-Matt |
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