^when have you seen torque like that on a rotary?? ;) I believe that is his Stealth

that's why i asked. just dreaming... ;)

when AI came on the scene the flow was just one amount and was triggered by reaching a boost value.

the problem was what worked quantitatively at 6 psi wasn't enough at 15 psi so you either flooded the motor w water or alcohol initially to get what you wanted at top-end or ran a discounted initial value and suffered at full boost.

as AI evolved 3 solutions were developed.

1. staged delivery

2 sets of nozzles, each triggered at a different boost threshold. when properly sized this system works well and has an added advantage in that the pump is always run full pressure assuring excellent atomization. small nozzle orifice 1st stage, larger second stage. Engine Runnerup promotes this setup.

2. delivery based on fuel injector signal/voltage.

Aquamist offers a system that uses the fuel injector signal/voltage, and along w their High Speed Valve (HSV) may provide the most accurate delivery method. our engines require less fuel after peak torque and keying off the injector value allows for a lessened amount of AI after peak torque. if you decide to locate a nozzle in each runner... you'd need 4 HSVs. the other AQ issue is that their systems are primarily designed to work w water. (originally the co worked w the World rally cars... they are permitted to run water only). Since AQ is water oriented the line is highly taxed pumpwise if used w alcohol as it requires higher delivery rates. it might be possible to adapt the higher flowing Shurflow pump. AQ does have a very interesting Flow Meter (DD2) that is capable of shutting down boost, ignition etc if the pump is triggered and no flow occurs. Snowperformance offers a similar item.

3. Variable Output Controller.

it appears most of AI has settled on this as the solution. simple, tunable. all of the vendors w the exception of Engine Runnerup offer their own variable, tunable controller.

AI provides a double benefit for rotaries...

during my 22 full seasons racing in SCCA Nationals/Runoffs GT3 i built lots of racemotors. my piston engines (the first 16 seasons) were 2 valve overhead cam 2 liter double weber DCOE 45 carbed motors and ran 10,000 rpm. we tuned them on an engine dyno and they made max torque at 1322 degrees egt. my rotaries were built by roger mandeville and daryl drummond. dry sump 12 A breathing thru an SCCA mandated single Weber downdraft w 38 mm chokes. they made 259 flywheel hp. rpm during the race was between 7000 rpm (the lowest rpm) and 10,000 redline. we tuned them each day so as to get the same egt were had on the dyno.... 1750 degrees.

the point being that rotaries make alot more heat than piston engines and as we all know that often causes a problem. we run near the edge heatwise.

kiss the heat problem good-by w AI

your tuning options are

inject a small amount of water, and cool your motor to whatever egt you like. you may even trade a few hp for a really cool motor. some like that....

inject more water and increase the boost and timing and make lots more hp. that's what RiceRacing does... he has run water for 5 years on the street at around 20 psi making big hp. when you Tune Up you need to have system fail-safes so you don't hurt your motor if you have a system failure. there are components now available to do this.

inject a combo of alcohol and water. many think this offers the best of both worlds... cooling and more power. again, a Tune UP is required to make more hp.

Alcohol only... alcohol is generally misunderstood. it delivers Huge Cooling v pump gas and sports around 20 points of higher octane than pump. anyone who has read the initial briefs on AI knows that water has twice the latent heat absorption of alcohol but their are other btu related metrics such as speed of evaporation where alcohol blows water away. you can also add much more alcohol than water so you can easily surpass water's total latent heat by running more alcohol. tuning is partially done by monitoring knock levels. many find that a combination of pump and methonal is superior to racegas knockwise... they generally can run more boost and timing than w racegas with less knock.

the turbobuick AI site started in 01 and there is a 60 page history of the "evolution" of AI. if you page through the it you will share the rea=lworld learning process that has evolved to present day.

the Executive Summary of this evolution is: most everyone runs 100% methanol. does that mean it is stupid to just run water? of course not. there are many different legitimate approaches to AI depending on your objectives.

my point is that AI, while run by some, deserves a much greater usage within the rotary community given our 1700 degree egts.

still think methanol doesn't cool? i have a friend who runs a 2 rotor drag car on 100% methonal at 26 psi boost making more than 700 rwhp and he doesn't even run an intercooler! at the end of the quarter mile you wouldn't want to put your hand on his intake manifold as it might just freeze on the aluminum.

howard coleman

howard,

which implementation are you going with? The variable output controller?

are going to go with this unit?
http://coolingmist.com/pagedisplay.a...key=controller

also, what fail safes are you going to add?

After installing mine, I was actually happy to see how "maintenance free" mine has been...so far:D

i will be running a variable progressive controller and really wanted to put a jet in each of the runners in the LIM but instead will not mess w that developmental concept until everything else gets properly tuned.

as far as system fail-safes... my guy has sold over 1200 kits, all methanol, and aside from aeroquip lines doesn't use any. he spends 1.5 hours modding each pump etc so his system does work reliably.

i will probably add a snowperformance flow meter "safeinjection" and will key it to my AVCR boost controller. if there is an "on" signal to my pump and the flow is less than .1 gph it will turn off my boost controller dropping my boost to 8 psi. i will also have a fuel gauge in my methanol fuel cell.

howard coleman

hell ill sound stupid for saying this, but what is AI? i know its something to help from detonation or something but i just cant seem to find much info when i search for it. how does it work and such??

well in this case is alcohol injection... it can also mean auxiliary injection (water, etc).

there's a whole subforum on here devoted to it.
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/

also when in doubt wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

has anyone used the AEM water/alcohol injection kits??

installed a few on FD's, never had any complaints in the few years that they've been installed from customers.


AI has been around longer than this forum has, and in rotaries that is. 2 stroke premixing also. guess it just still irritates me that this seems to be some sort of news.

my Devil's Own system is about 5 years old now and never given me any trouble, paid $250 for it during the original group buy as they were established and had the cheapest on the market. now they have progressive controllers with built in map sensors for those who have integrated map sensors into their ECUs. i don't know if i'm a fan or not of their latest controller though, i had one blow up when i installed it and the pump was trying to prime, it overloaded the controller and cooked it(was my fault even though they had no fuse listed in the new controller wiring diagram, i should have known better). they wouldn't warranty it because i tried to do an on the spot repair of the melted CMOS chip, since i was only there for a few days and had no time to ship it out and wait for it to be shipped back.

I have the AEM kit. Had it for about a year. Very pleased with it, did a write-up on the install which I linked below. I have only driven about 1000 miles with the system but it's been great so far and certainly works. Not difficult to set up if you have a boost gauge and mount the LED somewhere you can easily see it. Good luck. Take a look in the auxiliary injection forum if you have not yet, lots of good info there too.

https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/aem-water-injection-install-write-up-883642/

I started using AI in 1979--I always get a laugh out of those who seem to think AI is some sort of new or unproven technology.

thanks for the info boys

Yes water injection is nothing new but the kits that are readily available and already figured out for the customer have really picked up in the last few years. I am sure it's the first time a lot of people have heard of it, much like all the women I see driving RX-8s who have no idea how long the rotary has been around. Sometimes the market determines what people want or even know about. Just look at the music industry.

...and Oldsmobile has you beat by about 20 years:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3Km9qlhaR0

Gotta love the 60's announcer and the 'Turbo Rocket Fluid'. More info: http://oldsjetfire.com/


As for the 'kits' - agreed. Prepackaged, technologically advanced kits with boost depended / safety features are really pushing AI mainstream. When I go AI, the AEM kit will be my choice. Saw it at SEMA and again at PRI and I was nothing short of amazed.

-M