to respond to your points.

1)
car was on stock brakes
car was on stock tranny
If memory serves the car had a bolt in roll cage

I dont know what tires it ran on to do that time

I never witnessed the car. I was looking to buy a built car from japan years ago and this is what they showed me. 56s or 57s. it was several years ago

So if the wording of a "basic project" is what triggered your response, i apologize.
perhaps what i should have said a not full blown race car !? nevertheless i think you missed the point!

I totally agree with you on the hype

I had line on some that were in quite a bit better shape than all that for sub-$20k prices. They're out there! But yes, once you take renovation into account, the $25k I spent for mine, which required very little work (only scratched interior panel was the HVAC panel, which is still available new) was well worth it.

Good thread.

The RX7 is it's own worst enemy. It's greatest advantage is also it's greatest weakness. The engine. It's been stated and it's just well known that the engine is basically a time bomb. At some point in time, it WILL require a rebuild that costs thousands. That information among automobile aficionados is well know so the market for people looking for one of these is VERY small. Why spend 30k on a nice one when that gets me into "bullet proof" engine cars like the supra and NSX with similar mileage? The market willing to pay higher prices for any example just isnt there.

As someone mentioned before, once you tell a prospective buyer about all the potential things that can go wrong, its a HUGE turnoff to a would be buyer.

What makes the car so different, is also what holds it back in many ways.

This is also why you get so many LS swaps, and why they go for more money. You get a LOT of HP for the price, parts are cheap, and the engine is reliable while retaining the beautiful lines of the FD.

Kinda where I was stuck before getting my build going matter of fact. Realized I was doing nothing for the car that was really good if I was going to use it like I would like to or would have tendencies too:devil: Doing the minimal bolt ons is what preserves the car as we know anyway. Get in there and get to know it. Box the original stock parts up and sell with the car for extra when done and have fun, more fun in the mean time with a better, more reliable car.

BTW I kinda resemble this remark.

LOL

If only there was STILL a group of old guys with FDs

The only $30k Supras and NSXs are rolling garbage heaps, and most engine swaps are poorly done. You want a pile of trouble? Buy someone else's swap.
Rx7's are only time bombs if you don't know what you're doing and don't listen.

Yea find me a decent NSX for 30k. I will pay u finders fee.

Trust me I tried. That's why I went for the RX7. A decent NSX costs 40-50k these days. You can get a nice RX7 with a fresh rebuilt engine for around 20-25k. Is the NSX twice the car? Doubtful. Not to mention the power potential of RX7 compared to the NSX...

Agreed, I would much rather spend 25k on an RX7 and then use the 25k I saved for future rebuilds! :nod:

The engine is all but guaranteed to need an engine out rebuild much earlier than any normal piston motor would require. And like you said, you need to know what you're doing and all the little caveats about keeping these motors running even when you do have one running in good condition.

Not trying to be argumentative, im just stating that this is why the RX7 market has this ceiling on it that prices cant seem to get past while same era cars like the Supra and NSX have seen huge spikes recently out of nowhere.

The reputation of rotary engine definitely hinders the appreciation potential of RX7...for now. The ones that can look past it will have an awesome sports car for a bargain. I believe in a few years the RX7 will enjoy similar glory as the Supra and NSX in the collectors market. Hard to say how long that will take to reach that stage. I mean the engine reliability of vintage alfa romeos and jaguars def aint holding back their values...

The biggest advantage the FD has over every other car is what you get per dollar spent. The intrinsic value is very good considering the performance level, cost of maintenance etc... The extrinsic value is excellent considering how much fun the car is to drive and how fucking gorgeous it is both inside and out. Now add in the cool factor of having a car with a completely different engine that feels and behaves completely different and IMO it's worth all the hassles and then some. Also lets not forget just how fun this car is to tinker with :D


Yep plenty of old dudes still own these cars (I'll be 53 this year) but not many original owners with cars that have 10k miles or less sitting in nice heated garages which is why unlike the vettes this car will always command top dollar for low mileage clean examples :)

Sorry but a SSM R2 with 30k miles doesn't qualify when there are cars like this listed right along with it and sold by dealers for christ sake: Cars for Sale: Used 1994 Mazda RX-7 for sale in Newport Beach, CA 92663: Hatchback Details - 442865993 - Autotrader

YEP....lol

Yep when you can find a nice FD for 25k, 50k for an NSX is too much. Not to mention the FD will wipe the floor with it. You'll have to invest 50k into your 50k NSX to begin to compete against an FD with 20k invested.

The FD can make excellent power with very little invested and the chassis is so easy to upgrade and make faster!

Yep a 5k engine rebuild is chump change in a car that can still compete with; corvettes, vipers, GT3s, etc...etc... Try getting your old 993 911 out there running against vipers and vettes and you'll be out 100k in mods, OH and see how long it runs before breaking something LOL.

I've driven both GT3s and FDs on track and here's a quick reminder of why I still keep my FD. Yep you'll get 10 times the mileage in a mezger/gt3 engine UNLESS you miss a shift or just get unlucky and then you are out 40k. The trans will need a refresh about every 10 to 20k miles (out another 12k or more). The tires and breaks are silly expensive and what's really sad the GT3 is slower LOL.

I've been tracking my current track FD for 10 years (total of 17 years in various FDs) and I probably have 75k total expenses in the car. If I tracked a GT3 for 10 years I'd have a 75k tire bill LOL.

What cars cost on track is a totally different discussion. No one looking for a track car is searching out pristine examples of the FD.

Getting a little off topic on the notion of the FD as an unreliable car...

First off, any time you REALLY start modifying a car you open yourself up for trouble. I mean going well past bolt-on intake and cat-back. It's the "candle that burns twice as hot lasts half as long".

Also, piston engine cars don't necessarily need the whole engine out for major work. Pulling a head and doing work on the head is significant work but they don't consider that an "engine rebuild".

You also have, in the FD's case, a motor that Mazda ran too damn hot from the factory. Remember, stock fans won't kick on until 107 deg. C, not to mention you have a nuclear pre-cat overheating the engine bay and cooking the wiring and hoses. Add to that a dinky stock intercooler with poor airflow and you build up problems over time. Not to mention someone that takes a stock motor that's been run crazy hot for 20+ years then cranks the boost up and bye-bye engine.

At least we don't have to worry about -

- timing belts
- over-revving/"money shifts"
- valve adjustment
- blown head gasket
- crankwalk

etc. etc. etc.

Modern apex seals, water injection, and proper knowledge has done a lot for the longevity of a rotary. Also, I think the car community at large has started to appreciate the engine and the sound of a rotary.

Or, hell, let the whole car world think RX-7's are junk. We'll be too busy enjoying our awesome cars :).

Dale

LOL..........love the last statement. If the car junky world at large doesn't get it then we'll just eat more cake :egrin:

Seriously though as time moves along we'll see FDs with 20k miles and under selling for 40k plus.

I disagree, I'd say it is the owners. The reason the Rx-7 received the crappy reputation in the first place was due to the owner's fucking this car up. We all know that the FD is NOT forgiving when it comes modifications and yet still many cut corners, get cheap parts, don't do their due diligence and then they complain that their engine went bye bye. :rolleyes:

FYI- A stock FD is actually quite reliable. Starts every time, doesn't flood, doesn't over heat, and one can beat on it without fear of detonation. vroom vroom


These are pleasure cars and not really geared towards those that are on a tight budget. And honestly, $5K every 10 years is no big deal (depending on your driving habits of course).

As people have already mentioned that it is not viable to get a good NSX or supra for 30K. But also we must keep in mind that the supra's MSRP was almost 10K higher than the FD (25% higher price tag) and the NSX was 2X as much. So it shouldn't surprise us that those cars fetch more money these days. But on that same breath, the NSX is not twice the car of the FD and it has always been too expensive for no good reason. IMO the supra is ugly, heavy, only good for highway pulls and sausage parties. In an imaginary world where purchase price/value is not as issue, and all three cars were sitting there with a big red bow and I was asked to pick one: I'd pick the FD every time. IMO it's just a better sportscar than the other two.

Did someone mention "sound of a rotary".
 

It's really tough to beat the value of the FD once it is sorted out..... a car that competes with 911s, Vettes, R8, older F cars and the like once it is sorted out with parts that fix all the factory-engineered issues.

My 94 FD has all the big easy mods (fresh rebuild by Pettit, downpipe, RB exhaust, Koyo, Pettit IC, vacuum blockoff & simplification, Power FC, Greddy Elbow,intake, flywheel, idler pulley). Basic reliability stuff, starts 100% of the time, not smelly, timeless modern styling (especially with the wider 18" wheel, fuel pumps and some JDM tweaks), lowered with silky Ohlins, more solid feel with the R1 brace and Banzai trans/diff braces. At stock boost it's putting 320 at the rear wheels.... so sweet in a 2800 lb car.

I had a driver who recently transported the car ... he have me a discount because carrying it was a treat for him.... he's never been passed with so many people waving at him with "thumbs up" before!

I looked at a modded 2009 911 recently.... more than twice the price of the FD, and even with 420 HP at the flywheel (so est 350 at the rear wheels), the 911 is slower due to its 700 lb or so extra weight.

Now, I might not be able to use a FD as a daily driver, but as the fun car, it's more smiles per dollar and speed per dollar than anything out there. And damn, 911s are boringly very common in my neck of the woods... and just kinda douchy too.

(BTW, the FD has been more trustworthy than either my 91 or 99 NSX, easier to repair, and cheaper too. Faster and more fun to drive as well.)

So, wait 5 years.... if the community can be clearer on what mods are acceptable and good, vs the strange ones that vary far from OEM, we'll see an appreciation for these fine cars by collectors.

Dale,

This post is gold. My current FD that im building has 89K miles of documented miles without a single rebuild, and the only reason im rebuilding is because I thought the turbo blew a seal. Found out the engine was perfect but some moron did not replace a broken oil pump line which was pouring oil all over the engine and creating smoke....
-Engine was pulling 95+ PSI on each face of both rotors at elevation before getting pulled out.

Anyway point being the previous owner of the car was a cheap out which caused me to rebuild. I would say after tearing the car down and rebuilding from the ground up I only noticed three issues with the car. 1. The engine had massive amounts of carbon build up 2. The oil pump lines were brittle and cracked 3. The engine overheated a few times (did not cause any damage). All of these could have been solved with Water injection, replacing oil control lines instead of trying to fix, and better cooling. The key I think to these cars is premixing, water injection, dual oil coolers, upgraded radiator, vented hood, and electric water pump. With this you create a safe platform to start tuning for power.

I see this kinda like my STI, where the car will shit itself if you don't get a proper tune. But if you keep it stock it will kill it self (UEL headers on the STI).

I agree with you about the "car community at large has started to appreciate the engine" I would also like to add that as we get more and more people informed and placed on the right path of FD ownership the more people will realize the potential of the RX-7. Lots of idiots molesting this car when they first came out via improper maintenance and modding which gave them a bad name and reputation. Anyway is it me or have people recently started to appreciate the FD RX-7, not sure if its just riding the 90s era Japanese wave...:scratch:

Good discussion here gentlemen. Considering I have been and am still in the market for a clean CYM or CW it is valuable to hear from some of the longtime owners.

Still kicking myself for not picking up the '94 CW, single owner, 39k miles, on eBay a few months back for 25k on the nose (sorry, posting link expired).

I think it comes down to the individual car and specifics you want. I would pay a lot more for a clean well maintained fd over a car I was settling for. That 94 was clean, but not the color I wanted or I would've bought that as well!

It only gets better as you get closer to that thin red line that divides streetcar from racecar.

I used to keep receipts to justify the value of the car, but now every new mod seems to move closer to racecar thus making my car cooler to me and worth less to the market as a whole.

I mean there is always a number I carry around in my head for which if offered I'll hand over the keys and walk home. People ask all the time, hey what would you sell that for and then look real real offended when I say 30k.

#1 It wasn't for sale and you asked
#2 A chunk of my soul is ingrained in it, and that shit aint cheap

Skeese

YEP!

The FD is the best/most fun DD sports car I know of :egrin:

The good shops knew the right mods 20 years ago. The owners are the ones who can't stop effing these cars up LOL. I see body kits, custom interiors, V8s, 3 rotors etc...etc... and the car doesn't need any of it because it's pretty much perfect out of the box :scratch:

I don't know if this was already brought up as there is so much going on in this thread, but I'm going to give my thought process on valuation and it won't be popular here.

My experience with valuation based off rarity mainly consists of American classics. An example would be my '68 Cougar is 1 of 1754, with the same exact color trim level and options from the factory. In excellent condition these range from mid 20's to low 30's, but it also is not really that rare of a car and 49 years old original. The high trim levels (equivalent of the Spirit) for example are usually twice that. SO, comparatively with the addition of Japanese Gen 3's there are easily 6 times the number of cars since we are talking 2 model years vs 10. Going of of rarity you would expect a Gen 3 to be closer to 7-8k once all Japanese Yale arsenal are legal in the USA. Just to add to this I'm using values based off a 2% survival rate for the Cougar across the board and the 40% survival rate of just American Gen 3 RX7s.

What do you guys think? Is my logic sound or is there any reason prices wouldn'the go down from the 25-35k Gen 3's I see "for sale"?

main public perception... hence why the FD has a hard time keeping up with pricing with its competitors of the same time period... mk4 and nsx
same reasoning why an FD with 70k+ miles is considered high mileage... MEH... its freaking over 20 years old for petes sake...
comparable cars this old with similar mileage is designated low mileage...
pass 60k on an fd on the stock motor... folks will tell you its on its way out... pass 60k on an mk4.. they'll tell you its just broken in..

Just because a car is old, doesnt make it a classic, or even desirable. As an example, an early model Ford Pinto will likely never be a "high value" car. You cant determine value by age alone. Design is key.

No disrespect to your Cougar. I had a 67 Cougar XR7. Loved that car. Sometimes I wish I still had it. :(

Young and Restless
 

When Keith Martin's magazine speaks of JDM they cite a younger generation that perhaps grew up video gaming with these cars and are now entering a time when they have money to buy the actual cars. This may be one factor to consider.


I picked up a recent copy of Hemmings Motoring News. It is quite a thick catalogue. Even so there were only about six Mazda ads overall and mostly for Miatas. This would seem to point to Japanese cars still being a small niche market compared to the overall collector car market. Bringing in more JDM cars may stimulate overall interest in collectible Japanese cars; At a time when there may be latent demand from video-gamers.


Interesting that the cover story of the Hemmings issue was a comparison of a Corvette and First Generation RX7.