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Declining Values?
Hi All,
I just saw the latest update to Hagerty's Price Guide Report for the 3rd Gen. To my surprise, the values showed another slight decrease in the price. Price Guide Report I feel that I have been hearing quite a bit more mention of the 3rd Gen in various discussions of up-and-coming collector cars and I was expecting to see a bit of a bump in the values. Any thoughts? Accurate? Lagging the market? |
its winter, these are summer cars
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If the overall value is declining it's because so many FDs are not being maintained or are being poorly 'modified' with low quality body kits and other tasteless changes.
The market for clean, low mileage, tastefully modified FDs is rising and continues to rise IMO. Take a look at Autotrader and you'll find quite a few clean examples with asking prices of around $30,000. I myself sold a low mileage BB R1 for just short of that price about a year ago. Still regretting that one :lol: |
What's considered low mileage?
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hard to say. The cars are over 20 years old now...... under 75k in my opinion is nice, under 50k is even nicer.
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LOL
Graph is a joke. Please search this forum, autotrader, craigslist etc... and find a nice FD for 18k. Post it here and I'll either buy it or pick it apart :) |
Just figured out the graph. The only nice FDs that have sold in the last 24 months have been allrotor93's cars at a 15k avg. He's probably sold 20 which is more than the rest of the country combined has sold :lol:
These are the 3 cars I'd be interested in buying: 1994 Mazda RX-7 Twin Turbo R2 Chantilly , Virginia | Motorcars Washington Cars for Sale: 1993 Mazda RX-7 in Westborough, MA 01581: Hatchback Details - 384996123 - AutoTrader.com Cars for Sale: 1994 Mazda RX-7 in Ellicott City, MD 21042: Hatchback Details - 391574615 - AutoTrader.com The clear deal is the CW touring :nod: |
Scratch the ssm touring from the list. Body damage.........see what I'm saying LOL
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A few years ago, if you wanted your unicorn you just had to wait and cough up $20k.
(94/94 base or r2. Close to stock, w/ emissions & AC, not carved up for an knock-off widebody, not red) Now you have to hunt and cough up ~$30k. On the other hand, there are lots more abused FD's available now. Color changes, gutted creature comforts, awful modifications, cheap wheels. $8-12k. Racers and ricers are quickly moving through the supply of mid-range FDs. We're now left with the low and high end. It's relatively rare that an FD leaves an owner nicer than it got to them. I'm trying myself, it's hard. Time, money, whatever. Price guides are for squid and insurance companies. They're not a comprehensive resource. Everyone here knows what it takes to get a top-notch FD. It's not getting cheaper. It's not getting cheaper fast. |
Not until the market takes a dump anyway.
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Discretionary spending is tied to the health of the economy and times are pretty good: growing employment, rising US GDP, (stock) market highs, consumer confidence, and cheap oil. 2008 and the years shortly after are evidence prices move both directions.
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Originally Posted by gmonsen
(Post 11860627)
Good points, broadly. There are about 147,000,000 people employed and I would argue that the 1-percenters are generally not effected much in downturns. I don't remember well, but thought prices more or less stagnated for FD's after 2008. They still went up though more slowly for M3's. These are third, fourth, fifth, sixth cars. There are a fair number of guys on here with multiple collector cars or exotics, including an FD. Earnings have been stagnate for years now and although CPI seems low, its components do not include food or gas, so, clearly, the discretionary income of the middle and of lower working classes has declined. The upper quintile of the employed have not had stagnant incomes even during the 2008-2012 period. I think we may be headed into a very difficult time, again or still, I suppose. Wages are stagnant or down for the majority of working Americans and the prices of staples, food, gas, oil, electricity, and health care are up notably. We'll see what happens, but the only serious downturn I really remember was around 1990, where a recession combined with a 10n year binge of collector car speculation.
G The cost of living reached a point in 2007 where the avg american was spending more they earn and that's critical because each day that goes by while this is occurring is another day that we all have to pay for this. So the gov is broke and the people are broke at some point we have to pay for it and it's only a matter of time before this country is crushed by the weight of it's debt just like all the other countries that have counterfeited money for too long. Will this effect the price of low mileage FDs? F$CK no because the people that will end up buying them are the ones with 6 car garages who have bought the condo you live in and sit back raking in cash from all the investments/assets they have accumulated over the last 10 years by taking adv of the cheap money. |
Originally Posted by gmonsen
(Post 11860396)
Fritz... That SSM R2 is fantastic. Best of everything, imho. Cars like these are going to increase rapidly over the next 5+ years. I can't justify another one yet, though I keep trying. :( I do occasionally think about trading somebody even for one of these.
G (rear bumper...) BUT I already HATE paying the frikken property tax and auto taxes I'm currently paying and those of course will continue to go higher and higher along with medical expenses etc... to pay for all the jacked up BS in this country like: Stupid wars STupid health system Stupid war on drugs Stupid education system Jacked up infrastructures Stupid economic policies.......IOW stupid american gov...... |
Interesting that the '93 linked above refers twice to the great 4 speed manual?
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Originally Posted by jmadams74
(Post 11860695)
Interesting that the '93 linked above refers twice to the great 4 speed manual?
when you see dealers smart enough to recognize a classic car that they know nothing about you are witnessing the birth of said classic car. I get so tired of looking at R1 and R2 listings to find with great disappointment it's a touring because the dealer has no idea what they are selling. |
In September, I purchased a 94 Chaste White Touring with 33k miles. It was not the cheap FD that was easily attainable from 8 years ago. I've owned several FDs, and what I've started to notice now, is that maintaining these cars has gotten quite expensive. Parts can be difficult to find, interior parts in good condition are at a premium.
I feel like an old man now, because I'm finding myself actually interested in restoring the car, rather than modifying it like I used to. This tells me some interesting things. First, a well maintained, low mileage FD is going to be a tough car to come by in a few more years, as prices for parts and engines will only increase, and shops that specialize in them will decrease. Second, buyers who are my age, wanting to find a "unicorn" FD, are going to be interested in a stock car that has been well maintain and restored that they remember looking at years before. Those same guys are going to be getting to the age where they will have a lot more money available for such a car. I agree that prices are going to increase significantly in the next decade. |
In September, I purchased a 94 Chaste White Touring with 33k miles. It was not the cheap FD that was easily attainable from 8 years ago. I've owned several FDs, and what I've started to notice now, is that maintaining these cars has gotten quite expensive. Parts can be difficult to find, interior parts in good condition are at a premium.
I feel like an old man now, because I'm finding myself actually interested in restoring the car, rather than modifying it like I used to. This tells me some interesting things. First, a well maintained, low mileage FD is going to be a tough car to come by in a few more years, as prices for parts and engines will only increase, and shops that specialize in them will decrease. Second, buyers who are my age, wanting to find a "unicorn" FD, are going to be interested in a stock car that has been well maintain and restored that they remember looking at years before. Those same guys are going to be getting to the age where they will have a lot more money available for such a car. I agree that prices are going to increase significantly in the next decade. |
Originally Posted by Fritz Flynn
(Post 11860680)
Will this effect the price of low mileage FDs? F$CK no because the people that will end up buying them are the ones with 6 car garages who have bought the condo you live in and sit back raking in cash from all the investments/assets they have accumulated over the last 10 years by taking adv of the cheap money.
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Originally Posted by VTECthis
(Post 11860805)
I've owned several FDs, and what I've started to notice now, is that maintaining these cars has gotten quite expensive. Parts can be difficult to find, interior parts in good condition are at a premium.
I feel like an old man now, because I'm finding myself actually interested in restoring the car, rather than modifying it like I used to. |
Originally Posted by gmonsen
(Post 11860822)
VTECthis... As an older guy here that bought his first FD new as a middle-aged guy, I started moving that way a while ago. I went with an NA 3 rotor in a car that looks very stock and often wish I had simply kept my 18,000 mile '93 R1 totally stock. I haven't kept up with how many of these are on the road and of those how many might be clean, stock, low mile fairly pristine cars. Fritz has a better handle on that, I'm sure. I doubt there are more than 10,000 of these registered and on the road out of the 15,000 brought over here. If 2,000 are still stock of those, I would think its a high number. Of those, may 500 are low mile pristine cars at most. You've done the math already apparently. :-)
G |
Originally Posted by gmonsen
(Post 11860822)
Mazderati... I'm beginning to think I remember you from some time ago. Most stockholders are passive pension funds investing for workers. Most of the rest are longer term investments. Margins are more conservative than ever. Very very few investors are leveraged in the sense you suggest it. The upper 2-5% of the country is doing very very well and they survived the last home price downturn. While I think we are headed for a recession, I do not believe that the top end is going to be effected much at all. It frankly seldom is. Lastly, how do you jump to the opinion that those who have money in some downturn are going to pass over the FD for something else? Did you read VTECthis' post? Amazingly, smart, well-off people are actually capable of appreciating the unique, outstanding beauty and performance of Japan's finest sports. Apparently, more so than some owners? Can we stop the doom and gloom?
Hey, I've been a fan of the RX-7 for a long time. All I'm saying is the RX-7 is like any other specialty car; prices go up, prices go down. Values have trended positive the last several years but that's not to say values won't trend negative the next few. |
Values are not going to trend negative unless we have another huge economy meltdown and I don't think the nice examples will be hit very hard this time. You can only get one other car that is more for the money right now and that is the C5 Z06. It lacks the classic looks(though I actually like them) and rarity of the FD. The next step up in car is a 996 turbo(but everyone knows its not a 997 due to the headlights)C6 ZO6, and Viper. You go from dropping high teens to low 20s on a FD or C5 Z06 straight into the upper 30s, that is a big leap. I won't even comment on Supra prices as I don't consider it a superior car though I do really like them, their prices are just comical to me but at the same time I understand it.
Finding a nice FD is difficult, finding a really nice low mileage one without a story is extremely hard. Almost every FD I see is a restoration project or priced in the mid to high 20K range because that is the current value for a no headache car. There are exceptions to every rule but the value as a whole is definitely on an incline. |
Well, I guess I will chime in here on this subject without turning this into a economic/political post. All I can say is there is different segments of the FD market place from a price point perspective we all know that. In order for someone to get top dollar money for one of these cars whether modified or not it has to be sold by a trusted member of the community. The FD market whether it is sales or service is a niche market. Not many people want to touch these cars let alone sell them, it is a cult car. Values in my opinion will most likely go up but probably not as high as an NSX or a supra. FWIW if the values go real high (like 40-60K) how many people will actually drive these cars anymore as opposed to leaving them in a garage?
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Originally Posted by 2-Rotor
(Post 11861033)
Values in my opinion will most likely go up but probably not as high as an NSX or a supra.
Just a few years ago people were saying that Japanese cars will never bring money and we all know how that is going. As an extreme example *cough* Toyota 2000gt *cough* lol |
Originally Posted by VTECthis
(Post 11860829)
Gmonsen, everything I've read would make me suggest that those numbers should be cut in half for an accurate estimate, but that's only my opinion. I think a few years ago, someone with insurance/dmv type access determined that around 6 thousand were registered in the US. Again, not sure if those numbers were actually verified, or rumor. With as many of these cars that are raced/modified beyond repair/ruined/crashed, combined with the lack of qualified mechanics and the increasing difficulty in finding parts/engines, I'd say that these cars, especially those in good running order, are going to be exceedingly rare in the next 10 years. Nevermind stock vehicles.
I'd say there are max 5000 decent running driving FDs in the US VTEC like a lot of current FD owners has returned to the FD because he knows it's an exceptional car in every sense of the word. I think there a still quite of few owners who don't understand what they own because they haven't driven many other sports cars or the FD they own isn't setup and running properly etc.... I'll repeat find me a low mileage nice fd as described by Hagerty's definition of what a green group car is for less the 20k and I'll either buy it or pick it apart. The graph is way off the mark. That dealer in DC paid 28k for that SSM car (funny I offered the owner that exact amount when it was listed on EBAY) do you really think a dealer pays that much for a 20 plus year old car that isn't a classic. COME ON MAN there is no arguing this car is a classic today and anyone who denies this or doesn't grasp this especially if they own the damn car is simply not in touch with reality.
Originally Posted by gmonsen
(Post 11860822)
VTECthis... As an older guy here that bought his first FD new as a middle-aged guy, I started moving that way a while ago. I went with an NA 3 rotor in a car that looks very stock and often wish I had simply kept my 18,000 mile '93 R1 totally stock. I haven't kept up with how many of these are on the road and of those how many might be clean, stock, low mile fairly pristine cars. Fritz has a better handle on that, I'm sure. I doubt there are more than 10,000 of these registered and on the road out of the 15,000 brought over here. If 2,000 are still stock of those, I would think its a high number. Of those, may 500 are low mile pristine cars at most. You've done the math already apparently. :-)
Mazderati... I'm beginning to think I remember you from some time ago. Most stockholders are passive pension funds investing for workers. Most of the rest are longer term investments. Margins are more conservative than ever. Very very few investors are leveraged in the sense you suggest it. The upper 2-5% of the country is doing very very well and they survived the last home price downturn. While I think we are headed for a recession, I do not believe that the top end is going to be effected much at all. It frankly seldom is. Lastly, how do you jump to the opinion that those who have money in some downturn are going to pass over the FD for something else? Did you read VTECthis' post? Amazingly, smart, well-off people are actually capable of appreciating the unique, outstanding beauty and performance of Japan's finest sports. Apparently, more so than some owners? Can we stop the doom and gloom? G |
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