My boost control setup - perfect 10-8-10 pattern
 

Ok, as many of you already know I have tried many boost control setups with no success in eliminating spikes or keeping boost at stock levels. Finaly I did a setup that gave me NO spike on primary or transition and held boost wherever I wanted. I am sure some one has already done this setup but many have asked me for detaisl so here we go.....


First, some background and theory based on what I learned from the gurus. I tried changing pills (like 40 combinations), no sucesss....I tried bleeder valves where the pills were, no success...I tried bleeder valves without the ecu, even a 3/8 valve could not bleed enough, no success.

The reason many of these setups fail to control spike (and/or maintain boost level control) is because most of these setups restrict what the actual controler (solenoids in the stock system) sees for pressure.....this restriction REDUCES the controlers reaction time, thus creating spikes. What you want is the controller to see all the pressure (ie no pill or restrictor bleeder valve) so that it can have the fastest reaction ability. However, the stock solenoids/ecu is pre-mapped, so you can never give it the full pressure signal to maintain stock boost. Really what you want is a controller (or solenoid) that can handle the full pressure signal and be adjustable in order to tweak boost settings. Also, you want to minimize the amount of hose in the loop between the pressure source, controler, and actuator... this can also help response time (spiking).

With that said, I decided to use ball/spring valves for both my wastegate and pre-control valves because they can take the full pressure signal and you can adjust the 'breaking point' of the valve.

Here is an image of my setup with comments below:
http://www.myrx7.com/images/damian_setup.gif

Some notes:

I know you can get homedepot style ball/spring controllers for cheap, but I wanted these controllers for the professional look and design...so keep the 'why did you buy those ...blah blah.' comments to yourself.

If you decide to get these controllers BE SURE to get the RX version with the lighter spring. Even at a very low setting I am at 10 lbs, with the harder spring I don't know if you can get it at 10 with its lowest setting.

If you set it up like I did then you want to start both controllers totally 'open', meaning the ball/spring combo in the valve are just barely held together. I got the valves to this point by opening them until I could hear the ball/spring 'jiggle' when I shooke it, then closed the valve a bit, then shook it, then closed a bit, then shook it, just a bit by bit until I no longer herd the 'jiggle ' of the ball/spring. This allows the actuator to see a lot of pressure and will keep boost low to start. I did this for both the wg and pre-control.

The interesting thing was that on my first runs I was already close to a perfect pattern, I was gettin a 9-7-8 with ZERO spiking on primary or transition. I set the wastegate first so that post transition boost went up to 9ish, then adjusted the pre-control to get my primary to 10ish, then the wastegate again to get post transition boost to 10ish. I have a really nice 10-8-10 with no spikes, and its really more like 10-9-10 becasue the transition has become very quick.

Keep in mind I need to keep 10lbs boost level because I still have a stock ecu, but the following flow mods: intake, downpipe, and catback. So as you can see with 3 flow mods the stock system (with pills or valves or whatever) could not manage the spikes/boost../..but this style of setup can handle it just very well and I have plenty of adjustment room when I get an intercooler and PFC in, then it will be easy to adjust it to 12-10-12 pattern.

Also, you can use bleeder valves where I use ball/spring, but you may not get the same boost responce and be sure they can flow enough or you will not be able to keep your boost down!!

This is where I got my valves
http://www.boostcontroller.com

anyway, comments, feedback, are welcome....I really am interested if anyone has comments on the oil-injector plumbing deal.

Here are some helpful links if you want to make ur own valves:

http://www.gusmahon.org/html/boostcontrol.htm

http://www.xmission.com/~dempsey/perform/grainger.htm


by the way, I am going to try to post a vid of my pattern in a few different gears.

Excellent post and write-up Damian. You are really contributing to the forum!

thanks rynberg :-)

just curious what your pattern was before u got the valves and where did you get that hose for the BOV and CRV?

I got that clear hose (with white thread criss-cross pattern) from homedepot, it is only temporary until my yellow silicone comes, but it does look kinda cool :-)

my boost pattern was all over the place depending on what setup i was trying, when i tried the stock setup with the different pills, I could not adjust take out the transition spike without overboosting on the primary,
some tests gave me huge spikes to 13-14 psi on the primary (luckily I got off teh gas before fuel cut) and when i would change the pill to drop the primary to 10ish, I would get a huge spike on the tranistion (13-14 psi), so either way I was screwed with that setup....
using bleeder valves instead of pills did not help.

Excellent write up and congratulation on getting control of your boost! Did you consider at using the Dawes Device for its quick response?

thanks fdjunkie, yes i did use a daws device a few setups ago, but it is a pain in the butt to adjust between runs, the valves I have now work the exact same way internaly as the daws device (ball/spring) but they have a nicer 'case' and a knob for easy adjustablility.

its kinda funny, now I have a small box of parts from all my setup attempts, a daws device, 2 1/4 bleeder valves, and 2 3/8 bleeder valves.... heheheh

Damian, I love your write-ups. You are the perfect owner for a 7

heheh, thanks xstacy7 :-)
I dunno know about a 'perfect' owner...but darn close ;)

(I get a lot of help from the other peeps on this forum and other local 7 owners, they deserve much of the credit)

You'll never guess what I have sitting in a box in my garage right now! The only difference is mine is going inside the cockpit with the vernier cables they provide.
You just saved me a lot of time and messing around. Thanks.

Ceramic balls rule. (so do brass ones, :))

EXCELLENT write up. I never thought about getting a red one and a black one.

Great to see some creative lateral thinking just when EVERYONE thought the book had been written on boost control.:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :evilgrin: :bubrub:

That is the hallman (red ) control Garfinkle has for the non seq BNR stage 3s. .Will that set up on the wastgate only work better than putting the valve in the pressure line from the uim, and blocking the second nipple . He has not installed any thing yet as he and his son are making an alum pully set .

Great write-up Damian...this is addressing exactly the thing I need to work on right now. It seems odd that with the lighter weight ball and spring, and bypassing ECU control, that your lowest setting isn't closer to wastegate spring pressure, i.e. 7lbs or so.

As for Ron's plans to run the remote cables...are you going to do that with both of them? How much of a twist of the knob does it take to go from say 10 lbs to 12 lbs? There's no way really to have an easily felt detent or something to change between two set points, plus if you have to tweak two knobs to get it right...I guess I don't see a big advantage for our cars to the cockpit control, other than that it will make initial setting a bit easier.

jds

well, I would think my setup will give better response on the actuator because it is routed right from the closest pressure source (primary turbine outlet) instead of getting pressure from all the way through the intercoller and tubing when you connect it to the ium. But I don't know if the difference is enough to notice, I'm just speculating based on the physics of it.

...and , not capping the actuator allows the vented pressure go back into the plumming that the oil injectors see, but i dunno much on that subject.

Someone who was selling ball-and-spring controllers told me to just use a T so both actuators see the same pressure and you can use just the one controller. Do you see any downside to that? Obviously, you couldn't adjust the two separately, but I'm wondering how necessary that capability is? When people install an electronic boost controller on the sequential system they don't buy two.

Also...yeah, I'm full of questions...I'm trying to think what the downside is of not retaining the ECU control. Surely there must be something, but I can't think of it, especially in light of your results.

jds

>>Great write-up Damian...

thanks bureau_c

>>seems odd that with the lighter weight ball and spring, and bypassing ECU control, that your lowest setting isn't closer to wastegate spring pressure, i.e. 7lbs or so

well, I did turn it enough to get the spring/ball not to jiggle freely, so that must have been enough to create a few pounds of added boost.... not to mention that the restiction of the internals of the valve may also add to the equasion, in other words, if you removed the ball/spring and had just an open valve, it may add a pund or two due to its inner diameter ristriction

>>As for Ron's plans to run the remote cables...are you going to do that with both of them?

I may, i was going to buy the remote kits at the start, but decided to test teh valves first to see if I liked them, the funny thing is that it would be 'nice' or 'cool' to have then on the inside, but its hard to find a reason 'why', I mean, its not like I'm changing the boost once I set it....but, I originaly did have a plan to route the two control knobs into the inside of the glovebox, so when you opend the glovebox the two knobs would be agaisnt the back wall of the box....that would be sweet, but again, why when I never plan on changing them often.

>>How much of a twist of the knob does it take to go from say 10 lbs to 12 lbs?

hehe, well, I never got to 12lbs because I did't want to (stock ecu)...but I would say it was about 1/2 on the wastegate for a full pund of boost...so with the light spring/ceramic ball you really do have very nice resolution of control on the boost

>> There's no way really to have an easily felt detent or something to change between two set points,

I agree, I really like the hallman controllers, but my one complaint would be that there is no markings, ie a bezel on teh controller body with lines and a arrow mark on the knob so that you could 'mark' where your good boost setting is.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: https://www.rx7club.com/forum/avatar...ine=1041836963

>>Someone who was selling ball-and-spring controllers told me to just use a T so both actuators see the same pressure and you can use just the one controller. Do you see any downside to that? Obviously, you couldn't adjust the two separately, but I'm wondering how necessary that capability is?

absolutly necessary !! the controllers will not be set the same...you need to be able to adjust them differently or you will not be able to modify the primary spike (or transition spike) seperatly from post transition boost level.

>> When people install an electronic boost controller on the sequential system they don't buy two.

that is becasue it is assumed that the transition is fine and you just need to control post transition boost....many people with electronic controlers still change the pre-control pill to help control primary boost or the transition spike

>>I'm trying to think what the downside is of not retaining the ECU control. Surely there must be something, but I can't think of it, especially in light of your results.

well, I'm sure I havent though of everything, but one downside is that if you cap stuff off, then you might mess up the pressure/vaccumm signal that the oil injectors see since they are sharing the same plumming as the wg/pc control solenoids/actuators....but I kept that loop in tact with my setup....however I dunno if there still might be a hiddin issue there.

heheheh, thanks JONSKI

thanks ron,

I am really tempted to do the remote setup with the knobs in teh glove box, but its so hard to justify when i never am gonna change the setting....but 'cool factor' my be enough lol

Given that my transition spike is really what I'm most worried about...I guess I'll get two!

It sounds like, even if you went with an electronic controller, it would be to your advantage to retain the Hallman instead of a precontrol pill in order to benefit from the quick spool-up there as well.

I'm definitely going to do this. Now I just have to decide if the drool factor of the Hallman's are worth the added expense compared with the $12 Ebay version, which really should be the same in terms of performance I guess. Well...maybe not, since you went with the ceramic ball and lighter spring. Anyone know if any of the cheaper ones (not necessarily $12!) use the lightweight components? What the hell...its either the Blitz SBC-iD or totally ghetto. There is no in-between!

jds

The oil vacuum line is from the air intake elbow , Gar has remade that line . His actuator has a stronger spring in it . He has not installed the controler yet so I will show him your idea . Thank you for the reply and good work . good skill...

ahh yes duboisr, if he made the oil vac line then he is ok there, let me know what he thinks after you show him my setup...

Will do

This calls for a party! Damian, you da man!

http://www.nopistons.com/forums/html...1047683651.gifhttp://www.nopistons.com/forums/html...1047683651.gif

Edit: You know, this seemed all too good until I saw the price of those valvas...I think I will hold out and get an electronic boost controler...This is damn good write up though!

hehehe, yeah, the hallman pro rx valves are a bit pricy, BUT...you can get 2 for teh price of an electronic and be able to control BOTH the wg and pre-control..... cant do that with an electronic.

You'll be adjusting it when the weather turns cold again.
Since I run my car in Tucson during the winter and spring with cold, (32F in the morning in January ) dry air turning to hot (100F in the afternoon in May) dry air, then in Colorado during the summer at 8,300 feet above sea level I will do a LOT of "tweaking" to keep things in check. Altitude, temperature and humidity still rule the boost scene.

I think the glove box mount is excellent, although I am looking at the center console behind the ashtry....hmmmm., hidden or in sight. Stock vs. bling.
Oh hell, I like stealth - glovebox it is.

I still like the high quality manual control better than electric - somehow seems more in keeping with the original Kansei concept of a "pure sports car".:D

I think I'm going to give it a shot with something drastically cheaper, but the same basic idea. Its not hard to find these things for less money...they just don't look as good, but they *should * work...my only question regards spring tension and ball weight, but we'll see...

jds

I still think if done *properly* an electronic unit should outperform the mechanical type. Its probably insignificant however, but the other features you can add to it would make it superior as well. If I felt like paying $500 for boost control, I'd have the Blitz SBC-iD already....but there are a lot of things I could buy for $500 that don't have a perfectly adequate solution available for $200 or even $100, so...

jds

You must have the ceramic balls, they are the key.

(and believe me I looked all OVER the place to come up with a less expensive solution...)

Really? I could have sworn people are using these things in some fashion without that. I wonder if I could get a cheaper controller and then replace the ball? Where does one buy ceramic balls anyway :-)

jds

the lighter spring is really the key, since it allows for fine adjustment, starting right below stock boost level....and the ceramic ball supposedly give better reation time.

*cough*

;)

hehehe

Just out of curiosity, I don't suppose you tried using the stiffer spring that Hallman supplies with the controller? I'm still trying to be a cheap bastard :-)

jds

lol, nope, didnt try the heavy spring.....

Damian - lately your car has been turning into a monster, lots of hard work and good idea's coming outta you. I went to your site (top one) but it didn't load all the way (and I didn't wait very long), I'm interested in what kind-of power you're making...btw your car is pretty impressive (only thing I can see that it needs is the R1/R2 lip).





Are you the one rating your threads ;)
even if you are, they deserve it, great write up.

Dub

where were you 5 days ago.. i have a box of ball spring boost controllers... This probably would have solved all my problems, sniff sniff. great write up

Damian: your hard work shows how devoted you are with your car... You're the "Best Owner of the Month"!! hehehe i like your professionalism in your write up... keep up the good work... ;)

one question... did you take out the solenoid? or put resistor in it?? tanx

thanks cihuuy :-)
left solenoids in place and the electrical connection plugged in....

What all controllers did you try before staying with the Hallman? I was looking at it but I really want a screw or something so I can lock it down after I get done adjusting it. For some reason people have a tendancy to touch my valves when my hood is up and i want to lock them down.

Are there any similar manual controllers like the Hallman that have a simple turn knob but also with a way to lock it or screw it down or something like that? It would also need to have the capability of running 20psi of boost ;)

BTW - good work with the write up

STEPHEN

Will bypassing the solenoinds change how the pfc operates or gets feedback from the now unused solenoids? I know they are being bypassed physically but not electrically.

Absolutely wonderful technical find...pfc is on the way and was wondering how it will work with the manual boost control installed vs the pfc boost control.

thanks

stephen, at http://www.boostcontroller.com look at the Joe P MBC XZ, it has a locking nut...

look here to see what boost you can run with them:
http://www.boostcontroller.com/chart.php

The same way you would if you had an EBC. Just raise the "target boost" values on the PFC to higher than you will be running (this will prevent the PFC from fuel-cutting). You can ignore the duty cycle values. The PFC will continue to read boost from the map sensor and run normal.

Thanks man!!! I noticed on thier site that the Hallman pro uses a steel ball and the Pro RX uses the ceramic. Which one do you have? You said it was $100 which would be the Pro cause the Pro RX is $115.

The reason I ask is I always heard teh ceramic ball was better but if your having good luck with the steel ball I'll prob get the JoeP controller. It also has a steel ball which at first I thought wasnt good till I saw yours might also be steel.

So which one do you have for sure? That joeP is a little ugly though isnt it lol

STEPHEN

thanks for the feedback rynberg! :)

I have the pro RX kit for both mine, for the lighter spring, the ceramic ball was secondary


..yeah, the other controlers are ugly next to the pro ones

Stephen, I got mine at www.boostvalve.com designed by Ric Gillis. The link didn't work when I just tried it, maybe it's down or maybe they're out of business. Anyway, they come with everything you need to mount them. It's pretty easy to adjust and has a locknut. I just put a black magic marker dot on the adjustment knob for orientation. I have mine mounted to the bracket located just in front of the passenger side strut tower. Tom

I would think that anyone running sequential upgraded twins would be interested in trying this setup.

update
 

updated pics of my final setup:

http://myrx7.com/images/damian_boostcontrol_1.jpg

http://myrx7.com/images/damian_boostcontrol_2.jpg