The Latest on the 4th Gen RX-7
 

From the September issue of Motor Trend:

"Will the next Miata be built on Mazda's upcoming new rotary sports-car platform? Chances are good it will, although the Miata
still will be piston engine-powered to curb costs. The Miata will get a heavy minor refreshening for '03 and may be built on a plaform shared with the RX-8 for the '06 model year. We've heard conflicting rumors on the future of the RX-7. It may continue as a separate model or might take form as a coupified-Miata powered by the RX-8's 250-hp rotary."

please don't make the 4th gen seven look like a miata with a top....:( That would suck, rx7's are tiny enough much less havingg them miata tiny..

I agree.......but it would save them a shitload of money on tooling and still have a "new" model that would probably sell, and offer equal or higher performance numbers than the "old" RX7. And frankly, that's all they are interested in doing. If this rumor is true we're screwed. It's all about using existing platforms. Kansei Engineering: RIP.
:sad:

i dont like using existing platforms, but the original rx7 was built off the rx2's.....so we wouldnt have the 7 if it werent for them using the rx2's platform.
try these on for size.
http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/krxrotary27/atco7.art

another shot....
http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/krxrotary27/atco8.art

i would not be aginst it. would you honestly NOT buy one b/c of the platform?

I'm more discouraged by the looks of the miata as opposed to the "platform".... The miata just doens't say sports car like the 3rd gen... It looks kinda dull, if you ask me. I mean, it was cool in 1990 - but cool in the MGB sense, not cool in the Ferrari sense.

There was an article a long time ago I saw in a car mag about a hardtop miata possibly being the next RX7 - that image keeps popping back into my head whever someone mentions this, and it's less than stellar. It looked exactly like how it sounds - like a Miata with a hatchback. blech

$.02

Hmmm...I would take that comment with a grain of salt. If there was any real meat to that it would have not been refered to as a rumor.

My biggest concern with the next RX7 doesn't have to do with looks as so much as the motor that comes in it. See here's the deal, the Renesis motor that's coming in the RX8 or next RX7 isn't suitable for turbocharging in it's current form, why do you ask is that, well here's why. If you look at the way the exhaust ports are, they are configured sideways like the intake which #1, means that the exhaust pulses will not be able to directly spin a turbocharger, and will not spin a turbo as efficiently as the rotary is designed currently, #2 This would mean that Mazda will have to make 2 different housings,if they wanna build a Factory Renesis NA and turbo motor. This
adds 2 more questions to the fire, is Mazda intending to bring just a NA RX7, and also how many 3rd. gen, and HARDCORE drag racers are gonna be willing to buy a NA motor car without a turbocharger and be limited by the stock housings as far as a turbo is concerened. I know that me being the way I am I WILL NEVER BUY A 4TH. GEN. MAZDA RX7 UNLESS it comes factory issued with a TURBOCHARGER. Those are just my thoughts and my concerns. Being a racer, and a guy with a budget, I don't wanna be limited to make a car faster in the from that it comes in, I know if you have $ you'll probably be able to purchase direct port exhaust housings in the future if Mazda only brings the Renesis motor in NA form, but how many people are gonna wanna spend the $ or go to the trouble to do it, especially street cars. All I'm saying is that Mazda should build NA and Turboed 4th. gens, even if the turboed car can be ordered on a order only basis it will help the car to achieve supercar status like the 3rd. gen did when released, plus give all the HARDCORE guys a easier route to go with performance. I know that money is what makes car companies go round, but if they market the NA car right and sell it cheaper than the Turbo car it'll give reasoning to have both and still make $ as well as keep everyone happy.

are you saying that the way the new exhaust ports are set up spent gasses do not exit the motor? i dont know if it will be as efficent in spooling the turbo up by the sounds of it, BUT, i never worked w/ one and i doubt that you or anyone else on this forum has. so who are we to say that it won't. it does make more sense the way we have them set up now, but, the intake ports also made sense before periphiral porting. now doesnt that make more sense? but yet we were given side intake ports on the 3rd gen, but i dont hear anyone complaining. i think we all have to wait and see what happens, and not be so critical of the next one to come out. hey the 86 wansnt turbocharged but the came out w/ one the following year, the 79 wasnt fi'ed but they did come out w/ the 13b fi in that body style afew years latter. lets just keep our fingers crossed.

rxrotary2_7, if it was no bigger then or looked anything like a miata I would not buy one.. Like someone else said, does't exactly look like a seven.. Plus no room for tire in the back of one of those platforms.. I don't want my seven to have 13's on it...

then you had best never buy a first gen

rxrotary2_7, Look at the way the exhaust ports are in a Renesis motor, they don't exit directly outta the motor. This is one of the reasons why current rotaries spool turbos so efficiently, because it exits straight outta the motor and into the exhaust manifold. What you're trying to say that a exhaust pulse going out at a 90 degree angle will spool a turbo faster? Think about it, I don't think so. The exhaust ports don't work like the intake ones.

Think about it, 255 N/A? Thats awesome for a rotary engine. Plus it will lower the complexity of the system. Remember that one of the major failing points of the 3rd gen was that dealer techs could not figure out the twin turbo system because there were not enough of them to "learn on", and no other car had such a system. The engine bay will now look more familiar and only the engine will be black box to a mechanic. The rotary's strength has always been power-to-weight ratio, and 255 w/o a turbo system from a keg-sized engine will be very light very fast. Especially if its in a Miata sized car. I think they can stretch the Miata platform enough to keep it from being too small.

I guess I'm just lamenting the rather dismal way manufacturer's are introducing "new" vehicles. Witness the PT Cruiser, wildy successful, but it's just a junky little Neon with fancy sheet metal. You still can't buy one - get in line folks!
I swear I am about to go postal on Sport Utes as well. Now we're seeing smaller versions that are also selling like hot cakes. They are still underpowered gas pigs that are driven by older soccer moms who would not be caught dead in a mini-van anymore because they are so cliche. I have yet to see a sport ute with dirt on it! About the only new vehicle out there is the Jeep Liberty. OK, now I am just blathering....
What I want is a an RX7 that will kick the butt of all the Porches that now cost $80,000 to $100,000, has a turbo rotary with at least 350 hp that won't grenade itself at 70K miles, all wheel drive, looks to die for and ONLY costs $50,000. Oh, and I would like a convertible too, thank you very much, red in color.
I don't think this is too much to ask for.:cool:

The best solution is a simple, small single turbo coupled to the Renesis. Leave out the vacuum hoses and twin turbocharger nonsense and just keep it simple.

I'm sure Mazda can make the body of a Miata-platformed RX-7 look nice but just think how cramped the interior and engine bay will be. The 4th gen will HAVE to have more room on the inside without compromising balance and weight.

Some of you are thinking of the current Miata when trying to visualize a 4th Gen coupe built from it. Remember what the article said......the next generation Miata may built on the RX-8
platform. I can't say what the styling will look like, but think of the next RX-7 as a lighter, 2 door coupe version of the RX-8 and I think you'll be closer to the mark.

As far as forced induction for the Renesis goes, my bet would be that the first thing we'll see is a supercharger bolted on it by some aftermarket supplier. That would seem to be the cheapest and easiest route to a load of extra horsepower.

Superchargers...ugh.

You're spot on, though.

no thats not what i was trying to say, nor did i say. go back and read it. i am on your side of that argument, but i am saying, doesnt a pp motor make much more sence than our motors? do you know what a pp motor is? if not then you will not understand my statement.

What is the problem with the Miata?

All you guys act like the Miata isn't a sports car in it's purest form, do you really think the RX-7 is that much of a better sports car?

If you do, you obviously don't do a lot of grassroots racing.

It is absolutely NOTHING for a bone stock Miata to romp a well modified RX-7 week in-week out.

It seems that everyone is hung up on the RX-7 making horsepower. Guess what, that doesn't constitute it to benig a sports car. That makes it a MUSCLE car. BIG difference here.

I would buy a Miata if it had a 250hp rotary in it. Hell, I would buy one just to put a 250hp rotary in it if it didn't demolish the car so badly and wasn't so difficult. It's a small, two seat rear wheel drive car. What more do you want?

I understand the arguments, but please oh please quit saying the Miata isn't a true sports car. It's race heritage may not be as rich as that of the RX-7, but evidently the American public has no interest in race heritage.

/rant

Yes I know what a PP motor is, but it doesn't look like it will ever be a production type motor for 2 reasons, 1.It's not a very streetable due to the fact that it produces power way up there, and 2.The seals in a PP motor don't last as long due to the way the seals pass through the intake port. So for a production car this type of motor will never happen.

ok. so you se my point in te intake ports. those same seals on a exhaust port pass the same way. if the intake must make an angle coming in and still run the pants off a lot of cars an make great hp. how do we know that the exhast taking a turn is going to effect the turbo so significantly that there will NEVER be a turb model. i dont understand how you dont get what i am saying. i know that a pp is not the best streetability, and reliability, but do you understand what i am trying to say? the pp motor makes more sense in the sense of the intake. but the motor still works extremely well w/ the intake ports on the side housings and the exhaust on the rotor husings. never mind. i dont even know why i am even bothering arguing the topic.
so what kind of headers are we going to put on the new renesis? can that be explained to me? i woud like to see some thoughts on that since someone has determined that it CAN NOT be turbocharged due to the new exhaust port placement. i see the supercharger coming into effect also.
ps. iam not flaming or yellng or anything, i am just realy curious and trying to hope for the best as we all are.
:D

Yeah but you should consider this. How interesting would it be to have a Japanese originated muscle car. GM is giving up on the Camaro and Firebird. So the only muscle left is the Mustang. Which is made by Ford. Who just so happens to own a major portion of Mazda. The only problem with Ford is that they don't improve their own vehicles they only buy companies and make those cars worse. So I highly doubt that it will happen that way. If a two door coupe is ever approved then it will be small and not all that it could be. Let's keep in mind that a two door version of the RX-8 was denied when it was still the Evolv concept. So my prediction is that if one ever exists then it will be a Miata size car with a new body.

No...it is more about making it a SUPERCAR.

I think mixing platforms with the Miata and the RX-7 will be a BIG mistake. It's almost like mixing the supra with an MR2's platform. Its just a big NO!! The Miata is cute, it handles well, and it's a very comfy little cruiser, but do you REALLY expect people to be hitting speeds of 170+ in a car the size of a Miata? Even if they DO enlarge the Miata to the RX-8 platform, it will kill the repuation the Miata has which is it being a small and fun little car to drive around. A LOT of people like the Miata because of its size. Trying to upgrade it to supercar status will kill the sales of the Miata.

Now lets get back to the RX-7. Just imagine stuffing a 20b with 1000hp in an RX-7 the size of a Miaita. You'll kill yourself If they DO mix platforms, the diehard car guys will be VERY dissappointed. It's bad enough people think an FD looks like a Miata. It will be even worse if it IS a Miata.

Then again, ford is at the helm, so we are fucked no matter what.
Oh why oh WHHHHHHHHHHHY did it have to be ford to take a chunk of Mazda. ANY company other than an american based company would have done us good. It should have been benz. They used to play around with NA 4 rotor concept cars.

Ya, Benz did a great job with Chrysler. Losing a lot of money.

Ken
"94 PEP, White, Red Leather
www.nopistons.com

Ok, there's no doubt that everyone here likes the RX7 as a "supercar". The problem is, no one bought any significant numbers of RX7s when they became supercars. Dont get me wrong I love the 3rd gen RX7, but the FD is also the reason why RX7s arent sold here anymore. Let's face it, the average joe would much rather spend 50,000 on a Porsche or even a Corvette before he spends it on a RX7... dont beleive me? Then why arent FDs still around? (I'm not talking about Japan here... Japanese people have very different tastes in cars).

As a lover of ALL THINGS rotary, I'm excited that Mazda/Ford is even considering putting the RX7 name on a future ROTARY POWERED car (something that was VERY unlikely a few years ago). And, personally, I cant think of a better idea than to make the next RX7 Miata based. Lets get an RX7 with 250 rotary hp for slightly more than the price of a Miata. Let's make it what it used to be... an affordable sportscar that can outperform many supercars. Sure a new Supercar (super expensive) RX7 would be nice, but didnt the FD already demonstrate that thats not what the general public wants?

I want the next RX7 to be a sucess... I want everyone to buy them, just like they did in the early 80's. Those 1st gens are what made the RX7 "legendary" and a "classic", not the FD. I want to embarrass Porsche drivers all day in my cheap little RX7, just like in the good old days. I want to walk into my Mazda dealer with 30,000$ and buy a little rocket that will keep up with anything out there. THAT'S what RX7s are all about, not expensive, overpowered supercars (allthough those are nice too lol).

Hey, we've got a supercar RX7, it's called the FD and its great. Now, hopefully Mazda can come out with something that will actually be on the market for more than a few years. A car that will make RX7 a household name. And maybe, just maybe a car that will give the rotary the true recognition that it deserves.

I'm having a BIG problem here. Renesis passes emmisions and gets good mpg. WHY does it take more $$ to make it than a 4 piston motor.

Jeez, it has almost no parts in comparision to a piston.

Simple solution, put the 2 rotor in the new Miata and a 3 rotor in the new RX-7. One gets 250BHP in 2400 lbs and the RX7 gets 375BHP in a 2800 lbs car.

To me that's a "NOBRAINER".

Ken
"94 PEP, White, Red Leather
www.nopistons.com

FYI......GM is NOT giving up on the Camaro. It will not be made for the year 2002 BUT it will return "completely new" as a 2003 model. With that being the case, it's only reasonable that the Firebird will return as well using the same chasis/components.

I think that the reason the FD failed was timing. Reagonomics were at an end. The older generation that had the money to buy the car then probably spent it on a Lexus or a Porsche or a Benz. Those with less money and more of a blue collar mentality were probably brought up on the muscel car brands, like the camaro and firebird and mustang. The Z and the 7 just died a quiet death. I remember people saying "I'm not going to pay that much for a Japanese sports car." They would spend a lot for a German sports car, but not a Japanese one. The 7 just ended up outclassing itself for the American buying public. But that is also why the Miata did so well. It was a relatively inexpensive Japanese sports car. It wasn't trying to compete with ANY muscle car. But then again, purists, the few, didn't think the Miata was a performance car (well until you stuck a Sebring in it and beefed up the drivetrain...but that is another story).

That was then, this is now. NOW, you can't go down the street without hearing a Honda go by sounding like a lawnmower on steroids. The muscle cars are a dying breed. Now it's not "my carburator is bigger than your carburator"...and it's not about displacement of a rat motor.........it's about cold air induction and p.s.i. and how much hp you can get out of a motor that's smaller than a mouse.

You don't think that with the shift in mentality TOWARD japanese sports cars as the in thing that a well priced RX-7 wouldn't do well in this new market?

I say put out the 3rd gen with a single turbo, get rid of all the vacuum hoses, make it easy to work on...and get rid of all those damned squeaks.

Do you think everyone would be fast and furious to get their wallets out?

I do....I would....in a heartbeat.

I am in complete agreement that the FD would do well right now in our market place. I also know that Mazda really doesn't have enough of a good reputation to take a risk like that.

In order to push the rotary engine through the bean counters they had to package it in something exceptionally special, thus the RX-8. I imagine they're trying to get the RX-7 back in the states, but that could be a long, hard road.

Another thing I'll take issue with in this thread is the FD being called a "supercar" by one of the earlier posters. What makes these cars "supercars" besides our opinion of them?

Surely, you will find very few people in the 3rd Generation RX-7 Forum who will dislike the car they own, love and drive being called a supercar, but how many other groups out there do you honestly think would call this car a supercar?

Before someone spouts off performance numbers, let me tell you that the stock FD and a stock 2000 Mustang GT have VERY similar numbers. Top speed, 0-60, quarter mile and all. So think again about supercar term, even if handling is surgeons scalpel sharp.

Don't get me wrong, I love these cars. I also think that some time down the road the stock examples of these cars that still exist will be worth a mint. However, we can't judge cars we have't seen yet and we kind of have to wait for Mazda to show us what they can do... again...

They're getting back into racing (they bought a track didn't they?) and if the Miata is the best platform they think they can have for a race car I'm going to have to trust them. How many of you guys have driven one of the new Miatas? You might be surprised at how well the 6 speed is matched to the limited output of the engine. If one were to come with S2000 horsepower numbers, it might just be the best car Mazda ever made.

I agree, the new (and old) Miata is a great car. Cant say I agree with the current FD ever being a hit in our marketplace though... even if it was reintroduced. People on here will hate me for saying this, but the FD killed the rotary engine in North America... it offered great performance (like all RX7s), but sacrificed reliability (the rotarys original trump card!). We all have heard and lived stories of ever breaking FDs. Every rotorhead has an opinion of wether this is true or not... but unfortunatly, the general public is now very weary of rotary engines. It's incredible how many kids now think of the rotary engine as super fast... while it lasts. Just ten years ago, most people thought they where pretty much indestructible... and somewhat slow.

As far as the FD being a supercar... thats how Mazda marketed it. It was "an affordable exotic" as they put it. It was always tested side by side with Porsches, Ferraris, Vipers... Maybe putting it more on a Camaro's or Mustang's level would have been a better idea. Honestly, if you ignore the price tag, I think the FD looks and acts very well next to cars worth more than twice as much. I hope when (if) a new RX7 appears it will be just as fast and fun to drive but also closer to the original X06 concept: Small, simple, fast, fun and CHEAP!

What constitutes a supercar is having more than 300hp or something like that. At least that's what I read in an article on the 3000 GT VR4 being "the last remaning Japanese supercar in the US".

From earlier note I also read that the 35th anniversary Camaro will be the last in the St. Louis Post Dispatch. So that is my source and it's not my fault if they're wrong. Not that I really care if they keep making it or not. I'll never buy that POS.

Something I think Ford should look at...

Chevrolet currently owns the US market for domestic sports cars (real sports cars) with the Corvette. The Viper is awesome but there's no way you can sale as many Vipers (hand built) as you can Corvettes.

With that in mind, IMHO it would be a very intelligent market move for Ford to build or tool a factory in the states to build the next rotary sports car or perhaps build a US specific FD to compete with the Corvette. Rebadged as a Ford, of course.

Ford has nowhere near the technological advancements GM has, but GM has nowhere near the advances Mazda has as far as handling and performance goes. GM is actively supporting their teams in the Le Mans series while any Ford car you see is either independent or is supported by Saleen. Either way, there is a noticeable lack of presence by Ford.

The good thing about this for us is that we could get a new FD at a great price since there would be no shipping or handling related charges. Plus, challenge the Corvette technologically and the US could end up making the best sports cars on the planet. It's a win/win situation, especially if Ford could figure out a way to make a good FD convertible.

Until then, however, I'm stuck between keeping my old (and wearing) FD, getting a Corvette coup or settling for a Miata. What's a guy to do? ;) I'm glad these are the decsision I have to lament over!

You mean the "FE" right?

Sounds like an idea, but I've heard Ford is working on a new GT40 to compete with the likes of the Corvette. Personaly, I'd like the RX7 to remain a Mazda from Japan. Lets not get another Probe/MX6 thing happening with the RX7.

You guys are all silly.

Just wait and see WTF happens first.

First off, the Miata was created on its own platform and shares nothing with other Mazda cars. This is part of why they were able to make the Miata a success. They may want to share platforms inteh future, they may not, I dunno, but I have no problem believing that they will make a Miata, RX-7, and RX-8 all on different platforms.

I'd actually sooner believe that the RX-7 and RX-8 will share a platform.

I like the idea of a 2 rotor for the Miata, and a 3 rotor for the RX-7, both NA. A 3 rotor Renesis shoud be awsome, and weigh about as much as a 13B does.

I think it woudl be awsome for them to have 4 rotaries going, the RX-8, Miata, and RX-7, as well as contnuing the Cosmo.

I wonder if they would dump the RX-7 and make a 3 rotor and call it a Cosmo and send it here for the first time? I think they might because the RX-7 name has been tarnished in the eyes of the general public is terms of reliability, but a "Cosmo" may sound like some new great shit.

As for AWD, screw it, leave me with RWD. People keep going on and on abotu AWD, but IMO its not all that its cracked up to be. All teh best handeling cars out there are still RWD, and its not like people are not trying, I mean the Porsche 911 AWD is a great car, but plenty of RWD cars are right up there with, and can out perform it on a roadcourse. AWD gives great 0-60 times, but other then that I can do w/o it. Added weight and complexity is NOT something that the RX-7 needs.

I was talkin to a guy at a local Mazda dealer about RX7's..... he was tellin me that the RX8 would be out in 2003 but mazda's bringin the RX7 back to the states in 2004 !

Does anyone know about this?

He didn't give me any specs or if it would look different etc. :(

I sure do hope it's true...... :D

Hey guys,

This is my first post on this forum and its probably the only topic I am qualified to debate because I am just offering an opinion. I think the body on the new RX-8 is ugly. What were they thinking? Lets take this nice looking RX-7 and make is look so-so so we can sell more Mustangs? The 3rd gen RX-7 is one of the best looking cars on the road, period. Just my opinion. So I guess I wouldn't buy one, at least not one that looks like that.



Petros

I've yet to see a RWD car beat a AWD car on the track the moment it gets wet.If it aint all that why did they ban it from raceing when the skylines were in competition after two years of dominance.I love my 7 and I could drive circles around most people with it in the rain, I love driving in the wet,but it doesn't even come close to my AWD car, neither does my 4WD car,not to mention you would have to be a idiot to lose control of it;as far as complexity until you get rid of your sequential set up your no better.I'm not trying to flame you your right it shouldn't be on a 7,but it is definately worth its weight.I personally wished for a AWD MR2 back in 91.toyota made only two.

I doubt that any dumb ass Mazda USA people will know what Mazda Japan will do.

I read a Japanese Auto mag said the 4 gen RX-7 will come out in Japan with the rest of the Supra and GT-R in 2003. It will look different to the RX-8. No word on the engine yet. Maybe the engine will be a NA 280hps engine that will go to 10k rpm. But it will stay a RWD 2 door coupe. The first design was released months ago and the car looks like a mix of F360 and RX-8. Also the headlight will stay the same as 3 gen FD. Of coz everything can still be change coz they just start to design the car.

When Phillip Martens(Mazda'a director of Planning) was asked if the US would see a new RX-7, he responded by saying "I think so. In fact, I would say that there would have to be." He went on to say that the car would be in the $50k range. I got this information right out of the March issue of "Road & Track." Therefore the new RX-8 will be the affordable, fun, yet fuctional car that is supposed to sell, while the new RX-7 is going to be the pure performance sports car that is meant to raise company image. It should be along the same lines as the Viper or NSX; neither of these cars sell enough to make there respective companies any real money but from a marketing perspective they are invaluable. If you actually research Mazda's finacial problems in the 90's much of it has to do with them pulling the RX-7 from these shores. While in 95 very few RX-7's were ever sold it still was a symbol of what Mazda was all about. So when they stopped selling it Mazda lost there whole "sporty" image.

But...Mazda has to pay for virtually all research for rotaries. Whereas in boingers there are billons of bucks poured into R&D for pistons.

There many piston makers. If a maufacturor is tooled to make pistons then it can more esily make various types, but how many rotor factories are there? Its so specialized that it could cost signifigantly more.

Where do I find a pic of this design?
Anyone scanned it, or know where a URL is?


I WANNA SEE!!

:blue:

:( A lot of Japanese publisher still doing things the old way. That means no web site and no photos. Anyway, it just the first draft. It still have a lot of change.

Several of our Chicago forum members were there reading that book with me after the Chicago gathering. :cool:

Inspirational RXcetera!!

:boink:

I try. lol