Zddp
 

Is there a reason to use ZDDP? I read it has been removed from typical oils, and ZDDP serves as a protective barrier between metals primarily on flat tappet type engines. I know we don't have tappets, but wondered if it would help to improve apex seal longevity.

There is a good thread on this...somewhere. The thrust of the thread was that compression was improving over time while using this as an additive.

I have a group of Porsche 928 friends that think this is very important. Most of them use Delvac or other Heavy Duty Diesel oils since the ZDDP levels have not been reduced for that application. 15W-40 is the weight.

I started using Delvac at my last oil change in both my 87 gxl and my 90 vert.

Here is a link to a Mobiloil site that shows specs for mobil 1
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf

I think the 928 guys try to have 1200 ppm minimum on both zinc and phosphorus.


Scroll down to the bottom and look at the levels in the motorcycle oils.

Torco still puts oil in actual automotive oils, and if you search around there is a list of what over the counter oils contain zddp and how much. Also, Torco offers a zddp additive to "fortify" your oil with.
I am not sure I would agree it helps apex seal life unless you are using the OMP and not using an external reservoir to feed the engine tw-stroke oil.

you need to know about REFORMULATED OIL!!!! REVISITED AGAIN JULY 08
 

Here is the thread:

you need to know about REFORMULATED OIL!!!! REVISITED AGAIN JULY 08

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...highlight=zinc

Post from the thread:

Valvoline VR-1 is commercially/readily available with ZDDP in conventional oil.

I have to go to work so I'll read the threads when I get home, but I am not familiar with Delvac? Is it easy to get?

All oil has ZDDP at some level. Recent revisions to oil specs to reduce levels of ZDDP have been made in deference to helping the OEM catalytic converters live longer. This was at the request of the EPA in concert with Auto Manufacturers who have to guarantee longevity of the OEM cats. ZDDP degrades the catalyst life, thus the need to reduce ZDDP.

The problem is that although modern engines are now designed for the lower levels of ZDDP, older engines are not. This is not a problem if you are selling new cars. It is only a problem if you are running an older car.


Delvac, Rotella and other heavy-duty diesel oils are available at Autozone, orielly Auto Walmart etc. It is 15W-40. It is actually pretty cheap.

Racing oils, usually synthetic, labelled as for off road use will contain high levels of ZDDP.

http://www.oldgmctrucks.com/photos/F...s/image022.jpg


Interestingly, STP oil treatment contains high levels of ZDDP...

I've read a bunch of these ZDDP threads and found them interesting. Now I have something new to worry about...

Are there any negatives to using a heavy-duty diesel oil such as Rotella or Delvac?

Some people claim that a ZDDP additive such as STP or ZDDPlus are harmful if you use too much, or don't really blend well with your existing motor oil leading to uneven distribution. Is this true?

How important is restoring ZDDP for a street-driven NA FC?

Mobil 1 5w-40 turbo diesel truck; looks to have nice and high levels of zddp.... and its full synthetic.

I hate oil threads. lol

I run Valvoline VR1 20w-50.

I run Redline oils or Valvoline. I used to run Mobil, but they keep changing the formulation so its hard to know what your getting. I have also had/seen very good results with Brad Penn oils.
I do not think a rotary will care much about ZDDP unless your using the OMP without an external feed and are so burning engine oil. What I have seen is that using the Redline or similar full synthetics and injecting two-stroke oil in a street car engine so far has shown remarkably low wear in a variety of engine applications.
The syth oils I have used- ENEOS, Redline, Torco- over the years have all shown very low wear regardless of engine type. In a 10K rpm 1275 MG race engine (roller rocker) using conventional oils we would have visible wear when the engine was torn down before the runoffs. In this engine we changed the oil when the engine was rebuilt, so figure 10-15 hours on the engine. Changing to Redline showed no visible and little measurable wear over the entire season. Others have had similar results.

Good info. Do you mean logically that an engine that does burn engine oil should/may respond favorably to a higher ZDDP content oil?

Question: In your experience, have synthetic oils shown any significant combustion deposits? Specifically in those engines burning engine oil on a conventional OMP setup?

Question 2: What do you think about the j9fd3s quote above regarding bearing wear in the post I quoted above?

I know I am asking for your opinion. I believe your opinion reflects deeper experience than most of us posting here.

Thanks,

-Jack

1. most carbon deposit came from the gas we pump, not oil. and remember we are "forced" to have Ethanol just couple years ago. and we all know what Ethanol brings us.

2. I think it has a lot to do with as the car getting older, more "idiots" can get it for cheaper and we all know what idiots means. for example, they don't change their oil. ZDDP also plays an important role in this. This is also why I always prefer oils with "older" API rating, like SJ instead of SM. Sometimes I want to use Racing oil because like the others said, it has very high amounts of ZDDP. many people got freak out if you tell them "Oh its a RACING OIL", but they call it Racing oil because it does not meet the API spec. Does that mean its bad? nope, if you have too much of something you still fail the test. ZDDP is one of them.

For years, I have read and heard that synthetic oils would cause carbon build up. Here is a man who has extensive experience inside rotaries using different set ups and synthetic oils. I want to hear his opinion based on his experience.

Synthetic does not cause carbon build up. Its the owner.

Mazda is so afraid of Synthetic oil for years because the time when Mobil1 ate their cheap seals alive, resulting in massive oil leak. After that they just "don't recommend" Synthetic oil. At least in the US. It was totally Mazda's fault for using cheap ... grr I was trying to say "non-compatible" seals and Mazda spent tons of money to fix those engines.

Don't forget Mazda Japan sells Synthetic oil for Rotary Engine. There is nothing magic about Mazda's oil. its just ... oil. Its a PAO based oil.

but in US, just let the way it is, its always better to say "we don't recommend" than saying yes then when something f-ed up again and they have to pay for the damage.

I have read everything you typed expressed in dozens of different posts on this forum and other forums, except for the 'Mobil1 eating the cheap seals' part. Maybe you are repeating what has been written by others, maybe you know from personal experience.

I don't know from personal experience. I only 'know' what has been written by others.

How bout letting D Walker weigh in?:icon_tup:

I wasn't even born when the incident happen. I just got those from people who is old enough and seen some pictures of it. it was pretty nasty.

We wait for D walker to come :)

or just ask RG, i think he knows about it.

Wayyyy back in the day, there was a lot of myths about synth oil, including that it would not "burn right" and so should not be used in rotaries, and that it "ate seals" or caused an engine to leak oil. Most of this is simple mythology with a small amount of truth to it. Synth oil burns at a higher temp, so there is a very slight possibility of some sort of carbon issue or a tuning issue from incomplete combustion. I honestly have little experience here because I do not try and burn synthetic oils.

The fuel indeed does cause a lot of the carbon deposits, but so does the oil we burn. This is why I prefer to inject two-stroke oil from a reservior or premix. The benefits of water/alcohol injection for carbon control/removal are well documented.

Injecting oil from an external reservior or pre-mixing allows us to use a synthetic oil like Redline with no concerns.

Nowhere has it been proven that lack of zddp has anything to do with bearing wear. The issue with lack of ZDDP is where you have low oil flow/pressure and metal parts that slide over or against each other, such as cams/lifters. Rotary engines just really do not have these issues. Yes yes I know- the apex seals/side seals/corner seals right? Well, synths like Redline tend to have a higher "cling" factor and are able to penetrate the metal pores and reduce wear, which is the real issue we have here. Using an actual two-stroke oil also helps here, as it is meant to burn and lubricate while doing so. Again I use Redline two-stroke oil, but I have also had good results with AGIP and Silkolene.

yep, there were so many myths to the Synthetic thing.

From time to time I still get the "OMG Your engine gonna blow with Synthetic"

but ...

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1298351984

PAO based Synthetic oil. it does not have any API service rating (it didn't say on the site, so I assume there is none) 0w-30

My opinion is that, oil is oil, Mazda don't make them. they resell them, from who? no idea. but OEM love to repackage stuff and sell it at a premium. In Japan couple of Oil company use PAO as their base stock (Eneos use Ester, which is Group V, just like Redline)

maybe its Idemitsu ? who knows.

my point is that Synthetic cause no harm to Rotary engine, its just a myth. Even the ate seals alive incident was Mazda's fault. it has been fixed and no longer a problem.

Mazda also market an Oil for Rx-7, its a 10w40 oil called Rotary1. the picture is so small and it does not tell you what kind of oil it is. I assume thats NLA.

Eneos (Nippon Oil) makes a lot of the factory fill oils for Honda, Toyota, Mazda, and Mitsubishi. Someof these oils are not just re-badged but actually formulated to specific requirements (then repackaged by the manufacturer :))I have also heard Redline makes a gearbox oil for Mitsubishi but I have doubts. Nippon Oil may make the oil to Mazda specifications using a PAO base, but who knows but Mazda?

FWIW I am a huge believer in 0 weight oils making a difference in engine life by reducing cold start wear.

Getting back to the original topic, are FC owners using additives like ZDDPlus? Or is everyone running synthetic, race oil or heavy-duty diesel oil now? Is this recommended for lighter duty street-only applications?

The Renesis Oil is not API certified so I assume that might be a special formulation.

but my opinion is that oil is oil there is nothing magical about, it could be just one of Nippon oil's Racing Oil line with Mazda's Logo on it :)

As for 0 weight oil, it should help something. oil's additive need some time to get into operating temperature ... and depends on how cold it is outside sometimes it takes at least 15 minutes to get the oil to 150 or so degrees ... I think the problem is that most people ignore this simple thing and beat the crap outa their car too early result in premature wear ...

I always use Synthetic. 0w40 mobile 1, Royal Purple 10w40/20w50, Red Line 20w50.

Never tired Diesel oil cuz I don't see the point of it. That's just me tho.

I would bet that more people on this forum use Castrol 20W-50 dino oil than anything else.

I'm using Castrol GTX dino oil myself, but I'd switch to something else or begin using ZDDP additives if there was some strong evidence supporting it.

What about the claim that excessive amounts of ZDDP can clog injectors?

There is no strong evidence of anything. Oil preference is a belief system and bears no basis in fact. Witness nycps who sez oil is oil nothing magical about it, but uses the most expensive synthetics he can. (not busting on you nycps!) This is exactly why oil threads (or oil filter threads) alway degrade into many pages of opinion. Some opinions are based on attempted logic. Frequently that 'logic' is flawed and is based on someone else's opinion taken as fact.

I prefer to base my opinions on some scientific evidence. I am interested in oil. Even though I am trained in biological sciences, have quite a bit of college level chemistry, some physics etc, I am woefully ill-equipped to believe in anything to do with oil.

Here is my stance on oil: I change it. I filter it with the largest area filter that fits the car. I try to use good stuff. I recognize that a large portion of the oil I put in the rotary gets burned up. The rest ends up in the recycle tank. It is a consumable, a disposable; Since I also had a some training in college level and real-world Economics, I buy oil on price/quality. There is no magic in the bottle.


:dunno:

who said those Synthetics are expensive :lol:

I can get Mobil1 with any oil change special, 30 bux with Mobil1 filter (sometimes K&N), and every 5 points from Autozone gives me 20 bux credit to spend. :)

For Royal Purple and Redline, I can get them much lower than retail price (retails around 8-9 bux a quart for RP and 10+ bux for Redline, but I usually can get them around 20% off. not bad :))

so its not that expensive really ;)

I got them because they're "real" synthetics. not some bootleg fake wannabe crap like most of Castrol Syntec, Pennzoil, etc.

ZDDP kills CAT, it is somewhat proven BUT what they're doing is they lower engine's longevity for CAT's life. to me thats just stupid.

I am not 100% in agreement with the above, but again it is extremely difficult to actually prove anything about oil due to the myriad of variables involved.
Some things I have noted over the years-

Using Redline, Eneos, Torco, and the old formulation Mobil 1 oils we saw decreased wear, heat, and deposits in various engines, used both for street and race duty, over the oils used previously.
When I do use a conventional oil, I use Valvoline. Why? Because at one time they supported the SCCA Club Racing. I used Castrol because thats what the filler cap on my MG's valve cover said to use. A friend pointed out that Castrol was not paying me to be there but Valvoline was making it possible to be there. I switched to Valvoline. No other real reason. To this day I still use it, because no one pays me to use anything else.

I tend to not use Pennzoil, QS, etc because it is very hard to tell how much recycled oil they are using and there is no law making them disclose which of thier oils use recycled oil stocks and how much of a percentage is contained. Probably has no bearing whatsoever in reality, but once I dump oil out of my engine it needs to be used for something else, like making plastic lawn chairs.

All of this is opinion based on what I have seen over the past 20 years or so since I started paying attention to oil, which was probably about the time I started paying for my own engine failures.

more internet forum hype

adding ZDDP to your oil might make you feel better, but it won't protect your engine from a catastrophic failure (overheat, detonation) which is what kills these engines anyway

I repeat: If you lose a non-original engine that was properly rebuilt, it will most likely be due to a catastrophic failure. The oil or additives you use will not save you from a leak, a tuning mistake, an overheat, or all the other things that directly destroy motors.

If I was running a flat tappet Old School V8, I would really focus on maximizing the ZDDP up to about 1600 ppm.

I'm not.

the bearing wear could certainly be from the fuel not just the oil...

anyways, when dad and i cleaned up the Tr3 he looked into oils for it. he likes to make sure he's got the right oil, he runs german cars, and they demand it. rotaries seem like they are fine as long as there is something wet and slippery in there.

so anyways, after looking he likes castrol HD40. i have too. i've been running it in the Tr3, and its happy, and ive also put it in the P port.

on the P port mazda wants a straight 40 weight oil. there is some evidence to suggest that the polymers needed to make an oil a multi weight contribute to foaming, which the rotary is bad with.

not saying i found some magic elixir or anything, but it does seem to be a nice oil, and its not too hard to find either.

Dude, go put a bottle of straight 40 in the refrigerator for a few hours and then try and pour it. Holy shit it's like molasses.

In my old truck, I would run 10w-30, delete one quart of that and pour in a quart of straight 40. Once winter hit, I noticed this during an oil change and I stopped doing that (the bottle had been sitting in the garage overnight).

ok. well then in this case cuz i gotta fix an oil leak. involving removing stuff and all oil will leak out so i just gonna do oil change anyway. what should i run then. oil wise? i figured id ask here since there is an oil convo going

Ohio?

0w40 if you're lazy,

if you're not that laz use 20w50 for spring/summer/fall, use 0w40 for winter.

I run 20w-50 VR-1 like mentioned before. I live in Texas so it doesn't get cold enough for that to be an issue.

Don't know ohio's climate, but most racing oils are heavy weight.

ohio gets cold as hell in winter and hot and humid as hell in summer. lol. spring and fal are inbetween

Unfortunately, this is not correct. 20w oil at 80 degrees is still very thick and harder for the engine to pump.

In racing I use the lightest possible oil for the job, usually 0-30 or maybe 5-40, depending on what my expected oil temperature is. In AIR COOLED engines I will run a 0-50 Eneos or similar. If it is a true racing engine where the oil is heated before starting, maybe a 15-40 or 15/50.

Still, I prefer 0 or 5wt COLD oils. Knowing what we know NOW about dry starts and engine wear, it borders on irresponsible to use anything heavier in a street car, especially if you do the short trip thing where the oil never really gets warmed up.

ok walker you seem pretty good. what do you suggest for rapid change in temp?

good point, the two cars i mentioned arent DD's (they won't let me drive a P port on the street, and YOU drive a Tr3 when its 40F and rainy, i'm not!), the DD (stock FC) gets whatever is handy, 5-20 or 10-30 is fine, in the summer 20-50 is ok too.

the rotary seems fairly insensitive to oil weight, at least in a stockish street car. and hey mazda sells the rx8 with a 9000rpm redline and wants 5-20....

we're sort of lucky this way, some cars the oil you use really matters. i have heard of people missing an oil change on VWs and then the cam eats the lifters, @20k miles.

that is also why there were mad bearing failure in Renesis.

its a pretty common thing in the 8 community that 5w20 is such a failure and they recommend it only try to get as close to CAFE requirements as possible. of course there are always some ppl will say "oh Mazda knows more than you/in the manual they recommend 5w20" but the same people never listen to the part that saids "Mazda recommend to visit Authorized Mazda dealer"

My 8's original engine failed compression test @ 43K miles, in the 5 range. not sure what exactly happened, it was tested about 9 months before that and I got 7.x something that time. but worn out bearing might have something to do with it (increases Apex seal wear, poor injector location, too little OMP rate, etc)

The original engine sees 5w20 for around 5K miles, then it use 5w30 for quite some time before I switch to 10w40/20w50, but damages has been done and there is nothing I can do about it.

Rotary engine DOES care about oil weight, in the older days when almost everyone runs nothing but 20w50/10w40, not much issue. ever since 5w30 weight showed up engine life got shorter and shorter. and this applies to all engines. not just rotary.

not saying its 100% oil's fault but it does play an important role in engine life.

I have given my recommendations a couple of times above. I tend to use Redline for street and race cars, Eneos is good as well, and Torco is great when you can get it.
As far as weights, 0-30 cold weather, 0-45 or 50 when its hot.

Its kind of hard to get Torco and Eneos in NYC. have to be special ordered and price is not cheap for 0w50 :(

Royal Purple / Redline much easier :)

I am going to dis-agree with this for the most part. The problem with Renesis engines and bearings is heat and contamination, not nec the weight of the oil.

I had at one point in time a very very good article on engine oil that I can no longer find. One of the key points was that you need to adjust the weight of the oil to maintain a specific oil pressure at a given RPM as recommended by the manufacturer. What this means is that if you are using say 0-45 oil and Mazda says you need to have 60psi of oil pressure @ 2000rpm hot, and you have 80psi @ 2000rpm hot, then you need to use a lighter oil, say 0-30 or 0-20. And by the same logic, if you are using 0-20 and you have 40psi when you should have 60psi, you need to use a heavier weight oil. NOTICE that you only adjust the HOT weight of the oil. 0 or 5 weight is still really too heavy for cold start even at 80deg ambient, but the aditive packages do not yet exist to make an oil act like a sewing machine oil cold and act like a 40 weight oil when its hot.

Mazda made some (bad) decisions regarding the RX-8 and some (really bad) assumptions regarding the service the car would see in the feild.

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...highlight=zddp


Interesting read!

why I said weight because even with stock engine, with 5w20 there is no way you can reach the "recommended" pressure. you need at least 0/5/10w40 weight oil to get even close to it.

Lots of people ran test on it and had the same result. I even installed a Defi gauge just to monitor it.

Heat is another problem for engine with only 1 cooler(AT)

MT has 2 coolers and its keeping the temp in check (have oil temp gauge for that)

failures came from both AT and MT.

Mazda made a lot of bad decision on the Rx-8. they fixed all of them in the S2

This may not be the article you were thinking of, but it is a good source for choosing oil weights. It's track oriented, and assumes you have accurate oil pressure and oil temp gauges, but still holds regardless of the application.
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/art...lippery-slope/

The gist of it: use heavier weight oils only if oil temps rise outside of the acceptable range, or pressure is inadequate. Most of the time, factory recommended oil weights work at the track as well, and many run too high weights.

Nice to see a useful oil thread.

You're absolutely correct. Our engines don't have anything that simulates "flat tappet" friction, all of the friction surfaces in our engine are oil cushions. The need for high zinc and phosphorous in rotary oils is quite low.


Rotary engine oils biggest problem is fuel dilution, which is why many of us run "thicker" weights so as to offset the thinning effect of the fuel dilution.

I haven't heard anyone mention the fuel dilution issue lately, maybe because much of the 'Old Guard' left the forum.

There are many old threads that speak to the issue of rising oil levels due to fuel accumulation/oil dilution.

This can become an issue when the OMP is removed for premixing. Oil is not used and replaced as on a stock system. It can be further magnified when the AFR is 'tuned rich' to prevent detonation. Unburned fuel accumulates in the oil. Now apply the situation to a turbo car that is making lots of extra Hp, is driven hard but is not driven long enough at a time to have the extra fuel driven out of the oil by heat and run time.


That would account for some of the bearing issues, would it not?

there is a huge thread about the fuel dilution on the 8 forum, with oil reports and details.

Same conclusion, use 5w20 means you hate rotary engine.

The severity depends on things like side seal clearance and tune, I don't believe with 3,000 mile oil changes that the dilution causes that much of an increase in the acceleration of bearing wear. With extended oil changes however...

Yeah, fuel dilution is a seriously individual issue. Personally, my cars never see serious fuel dilution because the oil gets changed. On the e85 car this was a concern, but with good premixing (and soon the OMP with external feed) no issues with dilution or other contamination.

As an aside, modern oils, regardless of zddp content should handle a fair amount of fuel dilution before it becomes a concern. In a 4G63 turbo motor we once saw a fuel issue that resulted in oil that literally smelled of gasoline, and had been run that way for at least 2k miles. A later tear down due to HG failure showed virtually no bearing damage or damage to the cylinder bore/piston skirt.

As always YMMV