What should I do for my N/A build?
I've got a 1988 GTU S4 N/A. I want to push between 280-350rwhp on an N/A setup, or even 300hp at the crank.
Let me know what everyone thinks. Current upgrades: 5-Lug rotors and wheels with 4 piston front calipers Cone filter intake What I've got in mind__________________________________________________ Engine and Exhaust: AEM Dryflow air filter RB Header RB True dual Exhaust or REV TII Weber Carburetor (not sure on the specifics of this one, have to research it) Mild or Large Streetport 550cc primary injectors 720cc secondary injectors Rtek 1.7 or 2.1 ECU Emissions removal Throttle body mod(???) MSD 6A ignition coil(s) FD3S dual belt alternator Tires and Wheels: Kosei K1 TS 17" wheels (14.4 lbs each) Hankook tires- Ventus V12 evo K110 (215/45ZR17) front and rear Drivetrain: Lightweight flywheel Carbon Fiber driveshaft S4 or S5 Turbo II transmission Exedy Stage 2 Clutch Short throw shifter Suspension: KYB AGX adjustable struts with Eibach sport springs Cusco upper strut tower bar front and rear Cusco rear lower strut bar Cusco front and rear sway bar Brakes: Need advice. |
Full bridge or pport and supporting mods 10krpms for those numbers. rtek won't work for something like this. and just from ur list you don't any idea what your trying to jump into.
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Originally Posted by Shadowscreed
(Post 10541571)
I want to push between 280-350rwhp on an N/A setup, or even 300hp at the crank.
dyno tune custom headers and custom exhaust dyno tune and then just keep on going. |
Where are you getting the Carbon fiber driveshaft?????
Not going to break 200 without some serious work if this is a street car |
Originally Posted by theflatlander
(Post 10541586)
Full bridge or pport and supporting mods 10krpms for those numbers. rtek won't work for something like this. and just from ur list you don't any idea what your trying to jump into.
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With a s4 six port block not possible.
Get a FD block or cosmo block,swap to 9.7.1 rotors,peripheral port,custom intake manifold,custom exhaust system and ems.Know you just built a real loud pain in the ass almost impossible to drive on the street car. |
For a pport wouldn't matter what irons were used, ports are gonna get filled with devcon.
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a built 20b n/a would be the easiest way IMO.
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Originally Posted by theflatlander
(Post 10541586)
Full bridge or pport and supporting mods 10krpms for those numbers. rtek won't work for something like this. and just from ur list you don't any idea what your trying to jump into.
Originally Posted by SirCygnus
(Post 10541620)
D shaped or square peripheral ports, some exhaust porting, custom intake, custom fuel rails, custom intake manifold, custom header, Standalone ems.
dyno tune custom headers and custom exhaust dyno tune and then just keep on going.
Originally Posted by Bwek
(Post 10541691)
Where are you getting the Carbon fiber driveshaft?????
Not going to break 200 without some serious work if this is a street car |
Originally Posted by 20Bforme
(Post 10542023)
a built 20b n/a would be the easiest way IMO.
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Originally Posted by joeylyrech
(Post 10541736)
With a s4 six port block not possible.
Get a FD block or cosmo block,swap to 9.7.1 rotors,peripheral port,custom intake manifold,custom exhaust system and ems.Know you just built a real loud pain in the ass almost impossible to drive on the street car.
Originally Posted by theflatlander
(Post 10541751)
For a pport wouldn't matter what irons were used, ports are gonna get filled with devcon.
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Yeah..you have no idea what you're asking. Do some research on porting(the different types and their horsepower limits)
You won't make more than 180hp with a "street" port on a 2 rotor engine. If you want 300 horsepower for the street then a turbocharger is the obvious choice. |
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Originally Posted by Shadowscreed
(Post 10542247)
This car will be my daily for some time so I want it to be Street level modification until I can do a full build. Obviously this is my first rotary build, as you can see from the list above. I'm assuming that instead of Rtek, I should try more along the lines of a Haltech setup.
This sounds fun. Why does everything need to be custom? |
How do you expect an RTek ecu to work with a webber carb?! :facepalm4:
Research bridge and pp porting... And start there because that would be your best bet at ever reaching close to your power goal. |
Ok I've made a decision and thanks to Corey, a better list.
Also I don't compare any Honda to even a blown 12A, if I had to choose between those I'd take the 12A. I was using the exhaust sound of a Honda that drives around here because it's the loudest thing out here. But 105db's is pretty damn loud. Anyway here's Corey's list Engine and Exhaust: S4 13bt S5 turbo and ported wastegate Racing Beat 3inch downpipe + cat delete Racing Beat 3 inch catback Mild or Large Streetport(Fun but not totally needed) 550cc primary injectors 720cc secondary injectors Rtek 1.7 Emissions removal Throttle body mod(???) FD3S dual belt alternator Aeromotive FPR Walbro Fuel pump Drivetrain: Lightweight flywheel S4 or S5 Turbo II transmission TII rear end Exedy,Spec,act clutches are all good. Suspension: Strut bars are ok, They help a little. Get the Infini stock strut bar Cusco rear lower strut bar Sway bars aren't really needed to upgrade Ksport coilovers. They're cheap and good. You won't know the difference between a $2K set of something and Ksports. Brakes: Get some good pads and that's it. Stock 4 piston brakes are awesome. A good pad will make them great. |
Originally Posted by Shadowscreed
(Post 10542247)
This car will be my daily for some time so I want it to be Street level modification until I can do a full build. Obviously this is my first rotary build, as you can see from the list above. I'm assuming that instead of Rtek, I should try more along the lines of a Haltech setup.
This sounds fun. Why does everything need to be custom? Precision Shaft Technologies make Carbon Fiber Driveshafts, it'll cost about $1,000 but it will also shave 30lbs of rotational mass from the car. For a streetable engine, you'll be hard pressed to get more than 180RWHP out of a two-rotor NA. |
Originally Posted by SoloII///M
(Post 10542363)
How are you going to shave 30lbs off of a driveshaft that doesn't weigh 30lbs stock?
For a streetable engine, you'll be hard pressed to get more than 180RWHP out of a two-rotor NA. |
LOL, I'm getting flamed for being a retard but at the same time I'm getting valuable knowledge on something I don't know much about.
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I do appreciate all the info you guys are giving me though. Thanks alot
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Originally Posted by theflatlander
(Post 10542344)
If this is gonna be a daily, look at streetport or small bridge porting(200whp can be obtained with a little work). The power lvls you want out of a n/a require some aggressive porting that cut engine life pretty significant and all the power will be form 7k rpms on up. And everything from intake to exhaust is generally custom cause the intake and exhaust are tailored to what the engine wants. Dont compare a honda to a rotary ever... a full bridgeport or pport doesnt have alot of vacuum at id'le or low rpms so its under i high load making exhaust loud(over105db generally) and is very sensitive to restrictions so free flowing(header/straightpipe to straighthrough muffler) is generally your only option. As for the irons being filled with epoxy on a pport, ill let this pic do the talking...
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You should focus on the engine rebuild. I would keep the ports stock for now and focus on obtaining the right seal clearances and end play. Once the engine is running I would start working on the rest of your list.
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I want to push between 280-350rwhp on an N/A setup, or even 300hp at the crank. Edit: oh, you want to keep it a rotary? umm... lol |
okay
Originally Posted by theflatlander
(Post 10541751)
For a pport wouldn't matter what irons were used, ports are gonna get filled with devcon.
We all know that but he is starting with a S4 NA engine that is way i suggested a better block.S4 has the weakest dowel pin land,9.4.1 rotors,regular engine bearings(not high flow or multi windows)no set screws,crappy oil pump,skinny tension bolts,lower oil pressure regulators just to mention a few so for me is not good candidate for a PP project cause all this stuff has to be upgraded,now with a good FD core you can build a budget PP motor keeping mostly all the internals. |
You're looking at 200 tops. For what you want you need a peripheral port or a turbo. Peripheral port setups are extremely expensive and have other drawbacks so most go turbo.
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Originally Posted by Shadowscreed
(Post 10542378)
What all would I have to do to obtain 200whp with an N/A setup?
*S5 rotors *S5 Intake [plus a couple RPM switches and solenoids to activate the 5/6th ports and VDI] *At least Rtek 2.0 *Wideband to tune it *a good exhaust system [maybe true-dual Racing Beat?] |
I added my input to the list below. Opinions will vary, so hopefully others will give some more input, but you will see some recurring themes here. The mods should be good for about 300bhp. Turbocharging is a nice, quieter way to make more hp and torque.
Engine and Exhaust: S4 13bt S5 turbo and ported wastegate S4 turbo with a BNR Stage 1 or 2 upgrade http://gonzaloherrero.com/bnr/index....d=67&Itemid=89 Racing Beat 3inch downpipe + cat delete Racing Beat 3 inch catback Complete Racing Beat Rev TII exhaust Mild or Large Streetport(Fun but not totally needed) 550cc 720cc primary injectors 720cc secondary injectors Rtek 1.7 1.8 Emissions removal Throttle body mod(???) FD3S dual belt alternator Aeromotive FPR Walbro Fuel pump All-aluminum radiator (Koyo, Fluidyne, AWR, etc.) Front-mount intercooler Drivetrain: Lightweight flywheel (Light is not necessary, but you will need a TII sized flywheel to fit the Turbo II transmission) S4 or S5 Turbo II transmission with TII starter and clutch slave cylinder New TII driveshaft (unless you are SURE your used Turbo II shaft will last a while before binding up and shaking your car apart) TII rear end and TII halfshafts Exedy,Spec,act clutches are all good. (Must be Turbo II size) Suspension: Strut bars are ok, They help a little. Get the Infini stock strut bar Cusco rear lower strut bar Sway bars aren't really needed to upgrade Ksport coilovers. They're cheap and good. You won't know the difference between a $2K set of something and Ksports. Ksport is cheap ricer crap. If you really don't know the difference, then just save your money and stick with the stock suspension configuration. Most street cars use Tokico Illumina or KYB AGX dampers paired with Racing Beat, Suspension Techniques, or Eibach springs. New suspension bushings and mounts Brakes: Get some good pads and that's it. Stock 4 piston brakes are awesome. A good pad will make them great.
Originally Posted by Shadowscreed
(Post 10542247)
Precision Shaft Technologies make Carbon Fiber Driveshafts, it'll cost about $1,000 but it will also shave 30lbs of rotational mass from the car.
http://www.mazdatrix.com/g9.htm
Originally Posted by Shadowscreed
(Post 10542371)
LOL, I'm getting flamed for being a retard but at the same time I'm getting valuable knowledge on something I don't know much about.
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Thanks for the build info. I'll look into it.
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Keep in mind these cars weigh well under 3000 pounds. So 200HP is nothing to sneeze at. There fun to drive and handle really well.
If you insist on making more than 200 HP, and keeping it streetable, your only option is forced induction. If you turbo your motor and source parts correctly (find a tired TII), you will spend thousands less than building a 250 HP n/a motor. There is a guy on here that built a cosmo motor with S5 rotors and a standalone making about 250. I can't remember his handle now, but you can find his threads in the n/a section. he builds motors in main or new york or something. he said if I sourced the block he could build one for about $2500. Not bad considering a PP will run way over that. That still requires a standalone. A stock TII turbo will easily make 250. 350 is doable with a turbo upgrade and a tad more $$. |
I've decided already that I'm going to do an S4 Turbo II swap.
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Like Evil Aviator, I recommend BNR. I had my turbo built by them. Amazing job, amazing service, great power, low cost...
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Originally Posted by Shadowscreed
(Post 10545351)
I've decided already that I'm going to do an S4 Turbo II swap.
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This is my first build, I don't wanna get too complicated with it and don't wanna spend too much money. My second build will be much more extensive and cost more. I plan on using the S4 Turboo II motor and tranny and using the S5 Turbo and porting the waste gate. But I'm still open to suggestions.
I'm buying my FC on Saturday from my friend and I'm going to buy a shell to use for the build later on. |
the s5 has stronger irons, and a better intake manifold, and better inter cooler.
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Originally Posted by SirCygnus
(Post 10546466)
the s5 has stronger irons, and a better intake manifold, and better inter cooler.
You can see from RETed's website guide that the S4 and S5 engines are basically even in the 250-400bhp range. http://fc3spro.com/TECH/FM2W/power.htm |
I'm gonna use an Isuzu FMIC that won't block as much airflow from the front dam, and I'm only looking to push 300-350rwhp for my first build. My second build will be a 20B Cosmo swap.
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ok the commerical for the gxl s4 says 148 hp stock. add10-12 hp for s5 uim and lim, say another 10 for headers and full exhuast, and another 5 with a proper cone filter or KnN replacement filter. thats already 175 hp. and a streetport has to be good for over 25 hp at least i would hope so. so theres 200, plus theres 5 more for removing ps, and a few from throttle body mod, may not be at the wheels but its cheaper than alot of options.
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don't forget -40hp for worn out housings and seals.
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Originally Posted by canonize-ryda
(Post 10547765)
ok the commerical for the gxl s4 says 148 hp stock. add10-12 hp for s5 uim and lim, say another 10 for headers and full exhuast, and another 5 with a proper cone filter or KnN replacement filter. thats already 175 hp. and a streetport has to be good for over 25 hp at least i would hope so. so theres 200, plus theres 5 more for removing ps, and a few from throttle body mod, may not be at the wheels but its cheaper than alot of options.
Ricer math. Those estimates are very optimistic. |
i have a brand new crate 13b with only 10k on it, its not too tired.
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Originally Posted by canonize-ryda
(Post 10547765)
ok the commerical for the gxl s4 says 148 hp stock. add10-12 hp for s5 uim and lim, say another 10 for headers and full exhuast, and another 5 with a proper cone filter or KnN replacement filter. thats already 175 hp. and a streetport has to be good for over 25 hp at least i would hope so. so theres 200, plus theres 5 more for removing ps, and a few from throttle body mod, may not be at the wheels but its cheaper than alot of options.
so that's 165/175 which is about what we actually see. if you wanted more, you can contact gtorx7. and he can make you a really nice header/exhaust. the street port might do 25, but its limited by the stock intake manifold. |
It already has no power steering, and I've got the exhaust manifold with no exhaust so it's unrestricted.
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what do you mean "no exhaust"?
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probably means no piping after the manifold, or no mufflers and just straight pipe....holy deafening ears.
Thats pretty much bad for any power in low to mid range on a N/a |
Originally Posted by Black Knight RX7 FC3S
(Post 10548697)
probably means no piping after the manifold, or no mufflers and just straight pipe....holy deafening ears.
Thats pretty much bad for any power in low to mid range on a N/a |
Originally Posted by canonize-ryda
(Post 10547765)
ok the commerical for the gxl s4 says 148 hp stock. add10-12 hp for s5 uim and lim, say another 10 for headers and full exhuast, and another 5 with a proper cone filter or KnN replacement filter. thats already 175 hp. and a streetport has to be good for over 25 hp at least i would hope so. so theres 200, plus theres 5 more for removing ps, and a few from throttle body mod, may not be at the wheels but its cheaper than alot of options.
lets not forget some way to tune the fuel and spark. |
That's what the Rtek is for.
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The Rtek has a downside to reach 400hp, the MAF.
The Rtek is good for under 400hp, I havent seen anybody go over it with one yet. That and the injector sizing. Some people ran 1000cc with it and it does well. |
i my self wasnt talking rwhp but brake hp. rear wheel is different and depends how well u can transfer the bhp to the rwhp. so im not too of as far as bhp goes but rwhp im way off.
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Originally Posted by canonize-ryda
(Post 10549461)
i my self wasnt talking rwhp but brake hp. rear wheel is different and depends how well u can transfer the bhp to the rwhp. so im not too of as far as bhp goes but rwhp im way off.
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Originally Posted by SirCygnus
(Post 10549905)
no one talks about flywheel hp. real numbers are what you put to the ground.
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