water cooled I/c ?
 

i found this water cooled I/c on ebay, has any one ever tryed this type of I/c
let me know what you guys think about this.

what is it been used on drag or street? i'd say yes for drag no for street.

Water to air intercoolers are usually overkill depending on what you're going for.

ive had great results with water to air i/c's in all the turbo l36's and l67 engines ive built, they are great for dyno pulls, and drag cars, the main problem on daily use of the water to air is the heatexchanger, if its not properly mounted, you coolant temp will rise quickly, due to air having to pass through the heatexchanger, a/c cond., then the radiator.

ive never mounted one on a 7 before, so i cant say forshure if its benifical.

if its a dd, personally i wouldent use it on any turbo car, but with proper ducting, and mounting posistion anything possiable.

Sorry but I gotta poke ya for this one
would you suggest using it on an n/a? :rlaugh:

A2W make sense for cars that tend to heat soak or they need a physically smaller intercooler or need to plumb it it horrible locations. Small radiators or iceboxs can be used as exchangers for the water though. THere are COUNTLESS ways to set these things up. Search is your friend and don't limit it to rx7club

Ask Scrip7 he bought that off of ebay

For your average FC and driver, I'd say it'll be a lot of effort for a a very small amount of payback over a regular old FIMC.

You'll gain a bit of 'overall' throttle response from it, but it's a bit more weight and effort then a regular IC.

Celica All-Trac's ran them from the factory :)

Remember they used a separate water pump and radiator just for the IC though.

ya, i just seen something new and wanted to see if any one had luck with them, but i could see it being a pain in the ass, in the city, stop and go, it might over heat the coolant.
regular i/c would be best all around i think. thanks for the input

IIRC BDC was having a lot of success using a stock RX7 TMIC that was tanked to run water over the core. There is a lot to be said for sub-ambient intake charge temps. That being said it really is a drag strip application. you can use it on the street, and with a good heat exchanger you can keep the coolant temps near ambient, but its more complex, heavier and you do runt he risk of heat soaking the coolant.


BC

For that application, if you really need to get intake temps down that much, try CO2 sprayers on the IC, or just use N2O :P

Looks like the thread died out, but FWIW, my a/w ic uses a simple pump from a F-150 Lightning, and I'm using an Arctic Cat ATV radiator with built-in cooling fan. It fits perfectly to the right of the hood latch. The core measures 12"x12"x1.75" and it has it's own expansion tanks and radiator cap. No need for an extra reservoir to add complexity and plumbing. It has 3/4" inlet and outlet, and rubber mounting bushings. Piece of cake. Less pressure drop in the ic than most FMICs. Shorter piping runs, fewer bends. I plan on monitoring temps closely before and after the ic. I can also add an ice reservoir if I want to take it to the track, and have a fuel and spark map in my Megasquirt just for runs with ice. Once I finish collecting parts for my engine build I will make a few threads, including the Megasquirt install, battery relocation, etc.

Wow jeff sounds like you have a pretty good project going, Ill give you a call next time im in the city maybe i can swing by and check it out.

You're welcome to come by anytime my friend.

That's no different to a front-mounted air-to-air intercooler. The difference is the front heat exchanger doesn't need to be as big for the same cooling capacity. With plenty of water capacity (i.e. a decent sized reservoir in the line) and maybe a fan on the heat exchanger, the water temps should be able to kept reasonably low.

Your "average" FC owner isn't really into the design and custom fabrication this sort of project would require, but some will enjoy the challenge and work involved. The payback for that work isn't just the performance side, but eliminating the hassle of getting long pipes full of bends out the front, moving stuff out of the way (fog lights, batteries, etc), cutting up brake cooling ducts, compromising the radiator and oil cooler and so forth. A regular FMIC has it's share of disadvantages over a W/A set-up and vice versa.

:)

Once I have the engine built and installed, I'm going to experiment a little with i/c placement. I might get away with top mount, but my ic is BIG. I am re-locating the battery and leading coils, so I have an option to put it in that corner. Having the heat exchanger (radiator) on only one side of the car, there is less heat load on the condenser, oil cooler, and rad. I do enjoy a challenging install, and this should be a bit less challenging than some FMICs.

I'm planning on running a water to air intercooler on my Cosmo. The main reason I am doing this is to keep the piping to a minimum and to avoid cutting up the car.

The Cosmo is a heavy luxury car and I'm building an engine with torque in mind. Small turbocharger, short intercooler piping and a unique intake manifold. Running pipes out to the front of the car is not my first choice.

It's also a very rare car so I don't want to hack it up to run piping. The water to air unit fits easily in the engine bay and means that I don't have to cut 3" holes through the nose of the car. The water pipes will easily slip through existing openings and the small heat exchanger will mount in front of the rad (plenty of room).

Since the car will not be running high boost or ran into boost for extended periods, it should work out fine.

Theoretically a water to air intercooler should improve performance in both track and dd applications. But from what I'm reading here about it, it sounds like the radiator for the water to air intercooler is lousy or non-existant.

I wonder if you could simply pipe the intercooler inline with the rest of the cooling system, perhaps after the engine and before the radiator. You wouldn't get much of a temperature improvement over a standard intercooler, and you'd need to upsize your radiator to keep from overheating. But, I mean, to keep things simple perhaps.

Oh, and for those who want to do the math before installing an intercooler:
Q = mcdT, or dT = Q / (mc), i.e.:
1. The heat removed from the air is equal to the mass of the cooled air times the specific heat of air times the temperature drop of the air.
2. The temperature increase of the water equals the heat entering the water (which equals the heat removed from the air) divided by the mass of the water times the specific heat of water.

Now if you guestimate how much the air temp lowers then you can know how hot the water will get, assuming none of the heat dissipates (which is true over a short period of time). You can find the density and specific heats of air and water online.

We're talking about a set-up that hasn't been built yet, so I don't understand where the "lousy" heat exchanger has come from. It certainly couldn't be non-existent either or it wouldn't work. A decent heat exchanger is vital to it working properly.

No, that would be terrible! The coolant temp would always be hotter than the intake temp, so you'd always be heating it instead of cooling it. The idea is to try to keep the intercooler water temp close to ambient, or at least a hell of a lot closer to ambient than the coolant temp...

just thought I'd add, if you are replacing the stock inter-cooler with a A-W IC, you are FAR better off then when you started. Our stock TMIC is terrible. It usually becomes heat soaked on short trips with minumal boost.

I'm not exactly sure how that IC in question works (too busy at work to research it ATM) but i'm sure anything involving water or alcohol into the intercooler will get you MUCH closer to ambient.

I use a simple methanol injector stuck in my intake pipe as a chemical intercooler, and will be adding one after the IC, at the TB here shortly.

Although, I've thought of removing the IC completely. No matter what I do with WAI, the stock intercooler is counter productive in my cooling efforts. But to remove it, I'd have to get a system with warnings and controls mapped into my ECU in case of a failure in the WAI system.

Only if you do it right. I've seen DIY W/A intercoolers that would be a step backwards from stock because they weren't designed right. It's not the sort of thing you can half-ass.

Shorts trips are not a problem because there's not enough time for heat to build up. At speed it cools down quite quickly; in this regard it's better than people assume. It's spending long times at low speed, or when left stationary, that heat soak becomes a real problem. I've measured some scary temps when stuck in traffic or returning to the car an half and hour after last driving it. ;)

It's basically a wated-cooler intercooler. A water jacket surrounds the core, and the water absorbs the rejected heat. It's pumped around a circuit to an air-cooled heat exchanger at the front of the car. Because water can absorb over four times more heat energy than air for the same temp rise, a W/A intercooler can be much smaller than an A/A intercooler with the same cooling capacity. The intake tract pipes can be much shorter because the W/A core stays in the engine bay.

Their biggest problem is heat-soak of the water, particularly when stationary. That's why an in-line reservoir outside of the engine bay is a good idea. This also allows you to fill the reservoir with ice, which can then (temporarily) provide below-ambient intake temps. In normal use though how close you get to ambient temps depends in the whole system's efficiency, just like an A/A intercooler.

Not necessarily. Like I said, the stock IC does work well some of the time. you might find without it you'll be going through more water to get the same cooling. It wouldn't be hard to replace the intercooler with a section of steel pipe to see what happens. That's the only way to know for sure. :)

I ditched the intercooler in favor of water/methanol injection, its working pretty good so far.

the intake temps go up idling and in vacuum when the system isn't working (largely due to the location of the air temp sensor in the middle of the bottom of the UIM) and then go down once the system activates at 4 PSI.

After 30 seconds in boost (up a long steep hill in high gear) the temps fall from 150-160F after fully heat soaking the sensor with quite a lot of city driving to 110-120F.

I hear ya. In the summer out here in PHX, my water temps alone get scary just on the way home from work.

I was assuming that who ever installs the system would not be half-assing it, but I suppose that is not a safe asssumption!! ;)

So with the water-air IC, you have a resevior and a pump? You can replace your rear washer tank with the IC tank then... or is that too far away?

Nope, check the auxillary injection section. Intake temps on a high boost turbo tend to be much hotter than the coolant. High boost really heats up the air. So really you'd be cooling the intake air, but not nearly as much as you would with cold water. But on anything below 10psi it'd be pretty pointless.

And I was talking about the water to air intercooler's radiator, not the heat exchanger (not the water to air intercooler itself). As in the thing that cools the water with ambient air. Not the thing that cools the intake with the water. So, does that radiator even exist on these setups people are talking about? If not, that would explain why the system only works for a short time before it builds up heat. It isn't dumping the heat anywhere.

Departed member played around with something like this - he was plannin on using the stock radiator from a civic :puke: but it would fit and would more than likely provide more tha adequate cooling. It was the pump and plumbing and controlling it that was being a PITA.

I Believe BDC was using a bilge pump iirc :scratch: Those things for the most part are garbage though. I don't know what I would use as a pump. In talking with a buddy of mine who is studing to be a ME living in a house with a bunch of EE's we were tossing around ideas of a variable pump that increases flow based on intake temps and boost. You know, to keep things simple ;)

That'd be a good spot. The distance doesn't matter, as long as the pump provides adequate flow with the additional losses caused by the long hoses.

Okay, pre-intercooler temps can get that high, but obviously post-intercooler temps are supposed to be much lower. Cooling is about temperature difference, and if the water being used for the intercooler was 180-200degF then that's going to be much hotter than the entering air most of the time (heating it) or only a bit cooler than the air at high load (cooling it a little bit). You'd never do this, it'd be terrible.

I know what you were talking about (technically both are heat exchangers), and yes it's as vital as any other part in the system. There's no such thing as a W/A intercooler without one.

pre water injection or with water injection turned off I see 195+ f degree intake temps at 12-15 PSI off stock FD twin turbo's after less than 2 seconds of boost, the temps looked like they would continue to climb indef.

There is a theory that in actual practice, the intercooler, whether a-a or a-w, functions primarily as a temporary heat sink. And that a significant portion of the heat rejection is actually accomplished by re-absorption into the induction air during off boost times; This theory maintains that the extra mass is is one of the main reasons that a large FMIC is so effective. This theory also lends support to the w-a intercooler, since the mass available for thermal storage includes both the aluminum intercooler and the water as well.


What do you guys think about this theory?

Those temps were with intercooler removed?

I have no intercooler installed, so yes those temps are sans intercooler.

The best thing about the water/alcohol injection is that the longer the car stays in boost the colder the air temp sensor and intake elbow gets, after 20 seconds in boost the air temp sensor is within 20 degrees of ambient.

I suspect this is due to heatsoaking of the aluminum intake elbow where the sensor is located (a GM type sensor).

For those who think water->air intercoolers are a waste on a street car, consider some cars already on the road with them:

2003-4 Mustang Cobra
New Shelby GT500
Ford GT
SVT Ford Lightning
Several AMG vehicles

These came with water->air/air->water (whichever way is correct) setups from the factory. Now, these all use a roots/screw type supercharger which necessitates a small intercooler core mounted between the supercharger and the manifold. For this reason, a FMIC would be impossible. My point is they do work reliably.

Also, on the issue of heat soaking under boost. 5.0 Magazine did a test on a Mustang GT they installed a Vortech supercharger on. They did several tests with intake temp probes on the non-intercooled kit. Then they added the Power Cooler (air to water kit):

http://images.mustang50magazine.com/...cooler_kit.jpg

Note how small the heat exchanger is! Now the Vortech is a centrifugal type supercharger more on par with a turbo's compressor wheel so the results would be similar on a turbo car.

The intake temps (post intercooler) they measured while sitting in traffic were never more than 1-2 degrees above ambient, and in worst case scenario 2nd gear a 5000RPM (near redline @ max boost) for 2 mins the intercooler water temps never rose more than 3 degrees above ambient. Also, the temps were reduced 150 degrees from inlet to outlet of the intercooler. And as an added bonus, they added crushed ice to the reservoir before hitting the drag strip and dropped the intake temps (post intercooler) below ambient :)

My point is when properly sized (core/heat exchanger/reservoir) it is drastically more efficient, and intake plumbing is much shorter. I've bought the intercooler the OP pictured made by XSPOWER, lol. Had the end tank cut off and turned around, so it is not same side in/out. I have test fit it to take the place of the TMIC, and it fits perfectly. Now to get a heat exchanger, pump, and reservoir and start plumbing :)

Vince

There's allot more than this list, such as the celica alltrac turbo;s several subaru's, saabs, several diesel cars and trucks and others

It's not a theory, it's proven fact and makes perfect sense when you consider how heat flows from a hotter surface to a colder one, and what the temps are during and after a boost event. The intercooler absorbs heat from the air and it's temp increases, and when you lift off the air entering the IC will drop suddenly because it's no longer being compressed. So now the IC is hotter than the air so heat will flow from the IC to the air inside it. Heat is also flowing to the cooling air outside the IC (or water in the case of the W/A IC) at the same time as you'd expect. :)

How economical is an A/W IC? Can you just drop in any type of water into the resivior or does it need to be distilled? Is it similiar to a radiator or does the water actually evaporate?

Could one see similiar temperatures with a regular IC and Alcohol/Water injection or would that just be asinine?

I used an a/w intercooler on a Nissan I had back in 1985 that worked pretty well. I used an oil cooler for a heat exchanger, which is mediocre in size relative to the i/c core IMO. If you will read post #11 on the first page of this thread, you will see what I'm using for a heat exchanger. I had planned on making a thread with pics of the install when I finish painting my engine bay. I can take pics of the parts I'll be using if anyone is interested.

^You should post pictures of your setup. It would benefit others thinking of taking the same route.

Vince

I don't have the engine in the car yet, but I will post pics of all of the parts used when I get home from work.

Ebay intercooler bought roughly a year ago for $100
I plan on bandsawing one of the collector tanks off and re-welding it on in the reverse direction so I can mount it TMIC style. I measured, it fits.
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...owaxAWS376.jpghttp://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...owaxAWS373.jpghttp://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...owaxAWS372.jpg

I found out now that you can buy one with collectors reversed from the same seller on Ebay, negating the need to cut and re-weld anything.

New OEM replacement intercooler pump for F150 Lightning. I discovered that the same pump is used on some Mercedes models. This was around $85 on Ebay.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...owaxAWS375.jpghttp://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...owaxAWS374.jpghttp://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...owaxAWS377.jpg

Radiator from an Arctic Cat ATV (barely used) bought on Ebay for $85 including fan, shroud, wiring, rad cap, temp sensor, and overflow tube. This eliminates the need for an additional reservoir. The core measures 12"x12" and the entire unit fits snugly next to the hood latch on the driver's side.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...owaxAWS369.jpghttp://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...owaxAWS370.jpghttp://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...owaxAWS371.jpg

Using OEM pumps is a very smart idea. Let the experts figure out what works best and use that. ;)

As I said in an earlier post, I will make a thread illustrating the complete installation. First things first.....gotta use a tax refund to finish buying parts for the engine build, but I wanted to show all who may be interested in a project like this just how affordable and easy it can be.

I don't agree with that. Even a small reservoir will hold a lot more water than the radiator, and a large water volume really helps with the heat soak issue by keeping most of the system's water out of the engine bay.

Great radiator through. :icon_tup:

I am also going to modify the end plates where the coolant goes in and out of the unit. IMO, the existing drilled and tapped holes are too small to allow good coolant flow across the entire core as you can see here:

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...owaxAWS378.jpg

I am thinking about removing the end plates and drilling a larger hole, say around 2 1/2" dia. with a holesaw. I picture in my mind using some sort of collector to help direct coolant over a larger surface area of the core. I am going to traipse thru a salvage yard tomorrow to find something like a thermostat housing or water outlet from an import car and possibly mounting it to the end plates with drilled and tapped holes. If I'm thinking correctly, in order to make the IC the most efficient you would need a large volume of water going through it, so a collector should work.

Good point NZ. I may just do that. Some guys out there use a dedicated reservoir to ice down the water for track runs. I'm sure I will have more useful info once I have monitored air temps during and after heat soak and various boost conditions. It's all trial and error, mostly error at first :)

I'm glad you guys are thinking this through and trying to make it practical. Okay, here's how to do it without trial and error:
1. Pick a radiator (i.e., air cooling water), based on your average boost, not your max boost.

2. Figure out how much heat you produce at max boost, not average boost. You can also this equation for the temperature before the intercooler (in degrees fahrenheit):
T = ((boost_psi + 14.7) / 14.7)^0.283 * 540 - 460

So then the heat produced is:
Q = (T - (water temp)) * C * M
where c = specific heat of air in Btu/F*lb.
M = the mass flow of air = 1.308L * ~5000rpm * 60s/min * (density of air)
You can lookup how to convert liters to cubic feet and you can look up the density of air. You can also look up the specific heat of air. "540" assumes it is 80 degrees fahrenheit outside (80 Fahrenheit + 460 = 540 Rankin). The actual temperature will be a little higher than the T you get above, thanks to the heat produced by the turbo. You could add maybe 20 degrees or so to be safe. And yep, that's right, even if the turbo is 100% efficient you produce a ton of heat simply by compressing the air.

3. Estimate a maximum temp you want the water to reach. Now decide the maximum amount of time you'll spend at maximum boost. So the amount of water you need is:
Mwater = Q * c * tmax * (Tmax - Tmin)
c = the specific heat of water
tmax = the max amount of time you'll spend at full boost
Tmax = the max temperature that the water will reach
Tmin = the minimum temperature that the water will drop down to
Mwater = the amount of water you need. 1 gallon weighs 8.34 lbs.

The actual amount of water you need will be less than this, because you'll be dumping some heat through the radiator. But this will give you a good ballpark.

It's not a "dedicated" reservoir as such, it's just a reservoir in the circuit. For a street car the ability to put ice in the reservoir is just a bonus rather than the main reason for having it. :)

OEM intercooler pump is awesome. I REALLY like this project but I'm curious as to when you are going to have the pump turn on? Whenever the engine in running? Only under boost or when the AIT > XXX*? Regardless I think it phenomenal

As a side note.... If you aren't going to be doing the welding yourself I would get a few quotes from local welders. You may find that it's cheaper to buy the new intercooler than pay someone to weld yours on - sadly.

Thanks for the compliments.
I plan on carefully monitoring AIT especially after the initial install. I will have 2 small rocker switches and relays, one to run the pump and the other to run the fan. Obviously when I want to kill a Vette, they would both be on. During highway cruising, I'll experiment with "pump only" AIT and maybe turn the fan on to watch for any additional drop in temp. I had even thought of building a simple timer circuit that would allow the pump/ fan to come on when I unlock the doors with the remote, to try and get any heat soak reduced while I buckle up and start the engine after short trips/ shopping etc. The rocker switch would become an override.

I don't have any TIG equipment, so I would be at the mercy of a local welder. You are probably spot on about the cost. I may try to contact the original seller of my intercooler to see if he'd be willing to do an exchange. Shipping costs would probably eat up the savings, so perhaps another forum member could use this one. It can also be mounted in the LF corner without any cutting or welding if the battery and leading coils were re-located.

Ericgrau, very impressive post. I want to monitor pre-and- post I/C temps to help determine overall efficiency of both the turbo and I/C. I contacted Muythaibxr (Megasquirt guru) about adding a 2nd IAT input so I can datalog the temps in my MegaTune software, hopefully he can get that code written for us MS users.

This is becoming a pretty informative thread so far......perhaps when it starts to die down it could be cleaned up and archived. Lots of guys with 7's have considered a/w vs. a/a

You know.... If you wanted to get really silly and had the outputs and the software to do it you could have the pump come on whe AIT are X>Y and then the rad fan turn on when they are >Y, you know.... keeping things simple ;) I like the timer ciruit idea to remove some heatsoak but I would think that both the pump & the fan would need to turn on to do that. Then again, depending on the programming when you start the engine they could both kick on. How long would it take to remove the heatsoak? I have no idea, but I usually get in the car, start it, buckle in settle down and give the motor a minute or so before I romp on it. Would that be enough time to pull some heat out?