Swaping S4 to S5?
 

I have an 88 gxl n/a that needs extensive body work and I don't have the amount of money it's going to take to put it back in shape so I have decided to buy another car and swap my motor over. I am purchasing an 89 gxl n/a with a good body but some mechanical issues. I plan to swap my motor over to it, possibly keep it's transmission because it may have less miles or be in better shape, then swap at least the switch for the lights. I may also be swapping the driver's seat from my car to it because I believe it to be in better shape. Last mod is possibly installing a back seat because of my 4 year old.

What am I looking at as far as this swap over so I can be prepared? I know there are differences with the motor (intake housing, etc). Will everything pretty much fit right in? What about the transmission clutch and flywheel? Will I be able to use what is in my car since it's almost new?

Whatever it is, let me know so I can be prepared to get started without any surprises. The least amount of time I have the car down, the better.

The wiring is all different between S5 and S4.

You will want to strip the S4 to the short block, and then run all S5 accessories.

ok, we were looking at keeping the wiring harness from the S5 since we are having some deterioration of the wrapping on our S4 harness. I'm pretty sure the wires are fine though. wasn't sure which direction we were going to go.

Is there so much of a difference that we wouldn't be able to keep the S4 engine harness and all our S4 accessories? The reason I ask is because many of the parts under the hood are only about 4 years old.

Apart from the engine itself...does anything else swap over under the hood? I suppose I'll know more once the car is sitting in my yard.

here is a better question:

Frankensteining it.

If I were to 'rip' out everything under the hood of the S4 and place it into the S5 but keep the S5 transmission and maybe some of the S5 external engine parts. I can wire splice like the best of the boys so would it be something to look at to splice the wires where they go?

parts that must be s5:
manifolds
tb and tps
omp
front cover
alternator

you just put all of that back onto your stripped down s4 block. the harness's are very different as well as all the connectors. you Must have the s5 omp and front cover on because the s5 cars will go into limp mode if they see a failure in the omp. unless you want to go rtek ecu.

the transmission you can keep s5 as well as the exhaust system. but most everything is going to have to be s5. i have done alot of s5 motor swaps into s4 but never a s4 into s5, but its pretty much the same just reversed.

ok eff,

your saying those are the parts that S5 and everything else can interchange? We have made up our minds to swap just the block over to the S5 so as long as everything is good and working it won't be a problem. We are going to use the S5 transmission as well since our S4 is giving us problems.

I was told the exhaust is shot...is the exhaust interchangeable to everything keeping the S5 manifold? Our S4 exhaust isn't stock and is fairly new except the Y rear section. I have a straight pipe running from the manifold to the cat which is also new. I am still having trouble with it burning exhaust gaskets at the manifold flange and I'm not quite sure why. Maybe it's warped? If I continue to have this problem using the S5 manifold and my S4 exhaust would you recommend a header from mazda trix or having an exhaust shop take a look at what I have and maybe fixing it?

the exhausts you dont have to worry about, they will work fine. just sawp all your s5 parts on to the s4 block and you will be in business in no time.

sweet. I'm hoping I don't continue to have the gasket problem after the swap.

I haven't done any engine swapping before on any car. My husband has had extensive engine experience but has never done it with a rotary. Is there anything I should watch out for or be careful of while I swap external parts? Any kind of gremlins are haunted areas I need to worry about? What about any kind of alignment or timing things? Am I going to have to reset or recalibrate anything? Also, what about the AC system? I am assuming the AC unit in the S5 still works, will it need someone to recharge it or do anything to it?

We are going to get an engine stand to assemble everything to make it easier and are using an engine lift to remove and install the entire engine and transmission as one.

Best suggestion that I can give you is to take lots of pictures, put parts into baggies and label them as you remove them. This will save you countless hrs of trying to figure out what goes where.

already in the habbit of doing this particular chore from all the other work we have done with it.

Thanks!

you basically need to keep everything s5 except for your "keg" they changed everything electronically making it pretty damn impossible to swap tit-for-tat. wont be bad though if your s5 only has mechanical issues im assuming engine-wise. pull your s5 motor and trans and your s4 engine and trans. leave the wiring harnesses attatched by removing them from the ecu and pushing them through the firewall. then strip all the manifolds and and sensors and such and swap them from your s5 to your s4. you may want to concider not exchanging your front covers but pulling your s5 electric oil metering pump off and leaving it plugged into the harness to fool the ecu but keep your s4 mechanical pump. i believe* the s4 was more reliable. you'll obviously need a couple of gaskets and probably some new hoses and now would idealy be the best time to do so. hope that helps.

thanks ridah for the advice! according to eff I am to use the S5 front covers? A third opinion or explanation as to which is which or the difference? sorry for all the newbie questions here.

If you want to make the S5 OMP functional, use the S5 front cover and S5 OMP. If you want to retain the S4 OMP, use the S4 front cover and OMP, but you will need to keep the S5 OMP plugged into the system so you are not stuck in limp mode.

Search for my threads/posts from the old days. Circa 2004. I did this swap and I am still running it almost 7 years later. Some slight modification will be necessary. FWIW When I did the swap it had NO problems passing extensive (at speed) smog tests. Due to current MO laws, emissions went bye bye though.

And when doing the front cover swap, MAKE SURE THE BEARING DOES NOT MOVE!!!

Thanks inflatablepets :P Ok, I haven't done my own research yet to find out the answer to this one...what are you guys talking about the front covers...what are they and where is it located? Newbe question for sure!

Pretty much we plan to do as the other have suggested and putting all the external engine parts from the S5 onto the motor/block that is in our S4. Hopefully everything external is functioning as it should. I know the S5 runs and drives but it's not good because the motor needs a rebuild and he says there is vibration in the drivetrain somewhere. He is sure the vibration is not the engine or transmission.

sounds like a big pain in the....makes more sence to just fix or rebuild the s5.

Either way we still have to strip everything down to the block, only difference is we don't take the motor itself apart. Plus the extra money involved to rebuild the motor doesn't exist right now. We will rebuild the motor later down the road when we have the money for it so we have a spare motor sitting around when we need it. The motor in our S4 only has about 60K miles on it and runs great.

Like I said, either way we go, we still have to remove everything, strip it down, put it back together, and reinstall it.

Seriously ignore that question! I'm so embarrassed by asking that because I totally see the retarded-ness of it! Hee....Wow

Ok, after some research I am definitely going to keep the S4 front cover. I don't think I want to risk messing something up by trying to swap this if I can avoid it. I suppose I'll create a place to hard bolt the S5 OMP so it isn't "floating around" in there?

Correct. I've never personally heard of someone leaving the s5 Oil Metering Pump connected but not on the engine, but I'm sure its been done. If pure simplicity is your goal, keep the front cover on the s4 engine (which includes the mechanical OMP instead of the s5's electrical OMP).

You know what the front cover is now though?

Haha! Yes, engine cover...I get it...I blame it on a really bad day :lol:

im doing the same thing with my car...
if u need/have any tips lemme know ...
ive switch a few things already,
i can give u a list of what ive got goin
on if u need it ...zimmy

Great, thanks! I am picking up the car tomorrow finally, yay! Had to wait for a trailer to come available and the time. The swap is going to start very soon after that since I am already out of a car. My S4 has started behaving very strangely with random fuel cuts or stalls? It's a fuel problem no doubt and I think it's because the fuel pump is going out or a clogged fuel filter. Either way I figured it not worth the repair efforts.

Wish me luck!

I'll post pics in here as I go!

ya..pic would b a good idea...ill take some too.
So far i have..
S5 power steering pump..
S5 AC pump..
rehosed manual OMP

At this point im planning for S5 injection and emissions.....
pulleys, air pump, altenator, clutch set off the S5...
flywheel off an S4 ....

if anybody disagrees with this plan,
please lemme know ....zimmy

Question? Are you going with the S5 front cover as well? I was reading in another thread that if you stick with S4 front cover because simplicity with the swap and keep the S4 mechanical OMP the S5 water pump will hit the OMP so you have to go S4 water pump as well.

Do you happen to know if there are differences between the S4 and S5 injectors? Was wondering if I would be able to interchange these if I have a bad injector.

the S5 water pump wont fit the S4...

u need the S4 intake to make the
mech OMP work....the S5 wont hook to
the rod :(
also when i put my S5 intake on it was
laying on the Primary rail and wouldnt go
down all the way...
not sure if my primary is S4 or S5 though...

ugghh...i think im just gonna build up my
S5 and see if it runs or not...
the kid that had it overheated it and blew out
a hose and says the engines bad, but im not
too sure about all that and wanna see if it runs ,,,ltr z

btw.. u need the S5 cover to use the elec OMP..
it doesnt fit where the mech one is....

very strange...I've read other threads that had this swap done...I wonder what is different to not make it work?

Shouldn't you be using all the S5 "stuff"? I mean, all the injectors and rails and such should be from the S5 and the only S4 stuff would be the front cover, mechanical OMP, and water pump...that's what I've understood so far anyway.

if u want the elec OMP u will need the S5 front cover.

the arm for the mech OMP wont connect to the S5
throttle, so to get the mech OMP to work u would
need the S4 throttle....otherwise u need pre-mix..

i tried to combine parts off both throttle assemblies
but nothing would work to get the S5 to run the mech OMP.

Ok, I'm reopening this thread because I am finally able to financially start my project. My budget money for the engine swap is coming in a few days. I've spent my time doing tons of research but I still have some questions.

What I plan on doing is swapping the motor from the S4 into the S5 and going total S5. So I know I'm swapping the front covers. While I have everything out and taken apart I want to go ahead and replace everything that would benefit being replaced. For example, all gaskets, seals, o-rings that will be opened up are getting replaced and any others that are a good idea to replace. I'm replacing the front and rear oil seals, injector seals, all the gaskets for manifolds, thermostate, etc.

I've been looking at mazda trix for any parts they have and comparing prices. I saw they have an entire engine seal kit that looks like it has all the gaskets, seals, etc that I need plus more. Is this kit worth it for me to buy? I can't tell if it's missing anything I need and I know for sure it has more then I need but I've tried my best to price what I can find individually and I'm at about $150 and I don't know what I've missed. The kit is $211 listed here http://mazdatrix.com/b2.htm first item listed.

Also, I plan to send off all 8 of the injectors I have (from both the S4 and S5) to get professionally cleaned while I have them out; and since I'll have about 2 months before the swap is complete and the paint is done for the engine to go back in. I also want to replace other parts that would be a good idea to go ahead and replace while I'm at it. I'm thinking so far the thermostate and oil pressure sensor since those parts are rather important. Anything else I should look at replacing or servicing? All clutch parts from the S4 are only a year old and the flywheel was machine spun a year ago as well so if possible I'll be keeping all of those parts. I wish I could go T2 tranny swap but I don't have the extra money right now...not for a while.

Other plans include keeping the power steering for personal preference and I have driven without power steering on it and I have quite a bit of trouble with it being that I'm a small person and for my back. I am also keeping the AC and fixing it up because I live in middle Ga and the heat for 4 months out of the year is unbearable to drive the car and I will be using it as a driver on top of autocrossing on the weekends. I don't work so I don't do a lot of driving, but it doesn't bother my back like my SUV does (gotta love it's lumbar support sitting nice a low).

Plus: engine strut bar, undercarriage subframe bracing (preferred over a roll cage for extra strength - might add a 4 point for road course later if I become interested), polyurethane bushings in the suspension, racing beat heater and presilencer but the stock y split and mufflers.

Are there any engine swap suggestions or advice for me? Bear in mind, my husband and I are still quite newbie to rotary and this is the first time either of us has torn into one this much.

* Can follow this project in my photo albums!

more pictures are uploaded here of my project:

http://photobucket.com/autoXdiva

check out the sub albums in the right column as well. They have a breakdown of each phase of the project.