Restoring DTSS functionality
 

How would I be able to tell if my car has had the eliminator bushings installed or not?
I'm interested in either verfiying that I have, or if not, restoring the DTSS , so let me know.

Thanks, TW

Look at them.

I think it will be VERY hard to find the OEM DTSS bushings IMO. HAve you tried swerving real hard and see what it feels like. DTSS should kick in in 2nd gear. I was unsure on the t2 I bought so I hit up the local transit center(huge parking lot close to me) and found it it was stiff as a board!

Yep, that would be pretty helpful.
If I knew what to look for..
which is like..you know....WHY I WAS ASKING

Hmm, our local transit center has a tiered parkinglot, but I know a local lumber yard parking lot that fits the bill for that swerving test. Thanks, scr.

If you've seen pictures of the eliminators, you should be able to look at the rear hub and find where they are. I was SO happy to see that my car had eliminators.

Eliminators are usually white or black plastic, whereas the stock ones are rubber.

why restore something ppl go through alot to get rid of?

camaro, it's because when I was young I used to sit around and listen to my father and his ancient san diego Rx7 club friends discuss the system, and how they had read in articles and gotten firsthand accounts of how the DTSS would give you an edge, but about how 95% of people were too much of a pussy to learn to shake the feeling that you're about to spin out, and how skilled drivers that had learned to master their fear could get incredible cornering.
If it was bad and something to go out and remove right away, why would mazda engineers put it on the car in the first place? It's something intended to give the car an edge, and I'm not a pussy so I figure I'd take the advantage that was intentionally designed into the car.
Some people like to put V8's into these cars, because 'they're so much more reliable' and all the bullshit you've heard before.
Some people like to put eliminator bushings on.
I personally would rather use the car the way the designers intended it to be used.

-TW

so are you gunna put the smog equipment back on.... i was just askin... most of my best friends are rotor heads lurking arounf here... theyve explained the DTSS and i thought it was cool... but much like the electronic shocks.... im sure its cool when it works like brand new....

GM never put a 350 in front of a T5 tranny because it isnt strong enough... mines holding up for now.

yeah, I have to keep the smog equips on, I live in the people's republic of california, unfortunately.

Hmmmm.... well put. DTSS has got it's ups and downs. The drifters on here the main ones that eliminate them from what I've read so that it's easier to get her sideways w/o DTSS kickin in and throwin you into the inside suddenly. Replacing the stockers is really freeekin expensive. Gotham Racing quoted me something like 500 a pop.... that's 1000. However, those guys are ultra expensive to begin with and I'm sure you could find it cheaper.

As to how you can tell? Grab a FSM, check out the diagrams and then check out your ride and see if they are there. FSM available in the FAQ's.

man, I should just find a machine shop and start making my own stuff in Pro/E.
I'm hoping at this point I have them on there now, so I don't have to go scavenging or pay 1000 dollars, haha

Pwned....

how does that system work anyways.... i know the basics like it increases the negative camber while in a turn but what actually happens...

MAGIC???@!/1/1?!

Mazda also introduced Dynamic Tracking Suspension System (DTSS)in the 2nd generation RX-7. The revised independent rear suspension incorporated special toe control hubs which were capable of introducing a limited degree of passive rear steering under cornering loads.

This is from the wikipedia article on the RX-7.

So, I guess it lets the toe adjust under load.

DTSS is explained in excruciating detail in the factory training manual, available at http://mazdarx7.iougs.com/training.shtml

The REAL reason why people get rid of it is that by now the bushings are worn out and aren't working the way they're supposed to, and to replace them with new means replacing THE ENTIRE TRAILING ARM. This is expensive. Compare that to the cost of a $20 set of eliminator bushings and you've got your answer.

Also, keep in mind that the system was designed around mid-80's tires, not late 2000's tires. Tires have come a LONG way, with average grip levels being way up, so the tuning of the system isn't quite applicable to todays tires.

Also, if you're going to be making your own, then you'll need to be really careful to get the stiffness of them just right so that they're not too hard so that they're not deflecting as they should (too little/late), or so that they're not too soft and are deflecting too much/too soon.

Race cars don't use any sort of dynamic rear toe or anything like that. They use as solid a suspension bushing as they can to eliminate things like changing rear toe.

??? This is BS. The problem with the DTSS isn't the "feeling" of impending spin, it's that cornering force adds some toe in, giving you more cornering force. This is all fine and good until you overstep the limit. When that happens, the extra toe goes away and now you're WAY over the limit and your car goes all squirrely. Your best bet is to do the eliminators, set some extra stock toe, and deal with the increased tire wear. There's a reason that everyone who races FCs removes them.

I wouldn't even say that you need any extra toe in. My car currently has a slight amount of toe OUT in the rear and it still handles fine.

Toe in in the rear makes the car more stable, it doesn't necessarily translate to more grip though.

the dtss adds toe, so thats why a stock fc handles better with zero toe in

when you take the dtss out, you season to taste, but overall the rear will have less toe than it used too

I've never felt the DTSS system activate, I'd have to feel it to be able to decide whether I want to remove it or not. And to correct post #13 it decreases camber change and causes the outside wheel to toe in under cornering.

DTSS doean't "activate" its just there. its what gives the rx7 that oversteer feeling. i only noticed it when i first bought my rx7 how it FELT like i was oversteering on just about every little turn. i just eliminated mine the other day and at first i felt like i was understeering a lot. but the more i drive it the more i kind of like it gone. feels more natural and the rear end is very predictable

The DTSS also is active under engine braking and regular braking. Causing toe in to stabalize the chassis. Thought I'd add that it's from the training manual. I think that's what the guy posted above.

solid axle FTW!..... seriously tho sounds cool but rikety.... i suppose when it was new it was cool....

Unless Mazda discontinued manufacturing the DTSS bushings, the busings by themselves did had a part number and were available from Mazda.

Hot_Dog
90 RX7 GXL

EVERYTHING I've ever heard about this was that the bushing itself was not availalbe seperately, and was only available as part of the whole trailing arm assembly.

Don't believe everything you hear.

FB01-26-230 Ball, Pillow-RR Lower Arm
FB01-26-250 Rubber, Seal-RR Lower Arm

Hot_Dog
90 RX7 GXL

Just looked it up in the trusty parts fiche. THAT IS NOT THE DTSS BUSHING. That is the lower rear bushing, the DTSS is in front at about the middle.

You're right, that was the wrong p/n. Here's the right number. The DTSS bushings are in the hub, not the trailing arm. I've bought all these bushings several years ago from Ray Crowe at Malloy Mazda. Like I wrote earlier, they are all available from Mazda unless Mazda discontinued them.

FB01-49-130 Hub (R), Toe Control - Outer
FB01-49-140 Hub (L), Toe Control - Outer

Interesting. How hard is it to replace them with new stock ones?

http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/rrsteer.htm :"Those OEM bushings, as far as we know, are still not available by themselves, and require purchasing the entire rear carrier assembly. The Rear Steer Eliminator Bushing Set we offer replaces the OEM compliant bushings with a delrin / steel sleeve combination. This eliminates the rear steer, if that is what you want, and / or saves a ton of $$ if your OEM bushings are worn out."

You'd think that Mazdatrix would know, but maybe not.

Either way the point about new tire technology and higher grip levels causing the system paramaters to change, and the fact that race cars don't use anything like this are still valid.

I think it was done more because everyone was doing it at the time and it was a cool, desirable feature to have. Cars don't come with this sort of system anymore AFAIK.

The toe control bushing consists of inner and outer steel sleeves that are bound together with rubber within the annular region. The rubber binder however is not continous so as allow the bushing to have some compliance. Essentially, the rubber binds the sleeves at four equally spaced positions, i.e., top bottom, lhs and rhs. The problem that I had was that the rubber deteriorated and my rear wheel toe was all over the place. The car reacted like it had loose tie rod ends. The bushings aren't hard to rermove with a hydraulic press and an appropriately sized rod. I used a deep well socket that was slightly smaller than the bushing's OD. When I bought my bushings, I asked Ray Crowe (PM Malloy Mazda) if sells many of these, and told me that he "sells these bushings all the time". I don't know what MT is talking about. Not to knock MT, but sometimes you have to beware of some Mazda dealers. As an example, I once tried to buy an exhaust manifold stud from a Mazda parts dealer, and the guy tells me that Mazda dosen't sell the studs seperately, you need to buy a new exhaust manifold to get the studs. This is complete BS!

So it should be about as hard as pressing in new DTSS eliminator bushings then? I've done that and it's not that hard to do. You don't even need to take the hubs off or use a press. A long bolt (or some threaded rod), some nuts, washers and some appropriately sized sockets work pretty well.

the fc rear suspension is actually quite a good design, in several different ways.

1. it had the toe control with a bushing, no controllers, no links, no moving parts.

2. its got the 2 extra links (the little dogbone, and the diagonal link) which give the semi trailing arm a better camber toe curve, than its competition, like say a bmw

3. its got a low trunk floor, the fd or miata suspension takes up much more room

It was too difficult a job. I had the whole rear suspension apart when I did mine. I suppose its possible to remove/install the bushings with the hubs on car, but I really don't see the logic of struggling when trying to do the job.

The FC rear suspension appears to be a good design. The only problem I'm having with the suspension is that the control links -- the links that connect trailing arm to undercarrige -- are always wearing out.

http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=19856

I did it this way, I suspect that any additional effort from having it on the car is more than offset by the lower amount of dissassembly required.

Well, whatever works best for you. I've installed a set or two of DTSS eliminator bushing before, and I never needed to press them into the hub. Actually, they slid in quite easily just with hand force.

Keep trying; those part numbers are for the entire hubs. The pair costs $730 from Mazda Motorsports.