Originally Posted by Amur_
(Post 9763593)
I was picturing + probe to the pin and - probe to ground, crank and watch for 12v on the display. I'm not sure what you mean by "ground repeatedly." Will a constant grounding from the probes be either disruptive or damaging?
By ground repeatedly I mean ground the injector simulating a duty cycle. If you ground it for more than 3 seconds (?) it can overheat the coil inside the injector. |
Originally Posted by KhanArtisT
(Post 9763724)
You can use that method as well but I believe the voltage with the injectors firing should be 8v or so (?). I personally prefer grounding it because its a simpler test.
3Y - inj (rear primary) - 10.3v key ON, ~8.7v during cranking My back-probing and probe grounding were less than perfect, so that may explain the difference between the two ON voltages. So the ecu is sending during cranking. Does this eliminate the injectors entirely as a cause or is there something about them that's left to check? Something to think about while I'm trundling around doing the next test. :) If injectors are out, that brings us back to fuel pressure, doesn't it? By ground repeatedly I mean ground the injector simulating a duty cycle. If you ground it for more than 3 seconds (?) it can overheat the coil inside the injector. I'm going to head back out now and do a quick crank with my fuel cut-off switch bypassed. It's performed just fine up until now (I used it to kill the pump during my key-On checks of the primary connector's voltages) but I'm going to do this anyway to completely rule it out. I do show 12v when I meter in series with the switch. [edit] No change with the fuel-cut switch bypassed. The battery's going back on the charger after this. :) |
Originally Posted by Amur_
(Post 9763619)
What I've found says to me that *zero* fuel is entering the chamber. I inserted barely 2 cubic centimeters of fuel into the chamber. An online converter tells us that this is: 0.067 628 045 403 ounce. And that's before the loss to the exhaust sweep. In other words, the car nearly started with sweet fuck-all for gas in the chamber. Sweet fuck-all > nothing.
Originally Posted by Amur_
(Post 9763619)
Ah, but if they're intact and part of them is immersed in a liquid like coolant, which goes back to Karack's previous assertions, then that might be a problem.
I'm closing in on this. Not much further to go, I hope. :) Do you have a vacuum gauge to see what you're pulling during cranking? Have you tried the simple test of jamming a screwdriver into the AFM and cranking? I had both primary injector rubber seals leaking air on my '89 and it wouldn't so much as fart during cranking, no fuel/anything at all that I could find, would start and run on starting fluid then stall. Had someone crank the car and moved the AFM door by hand, got it to start sputtering then eventually hit the sweet spot and it started right up and I could get it to idle perfectly by holding the door open. I don't know if it works on S4's, the last time I tried on my '87 I didn't have any luck getting it to start (it did at least fart a few times, which it didn't before). |
did you jump the intial set connector and check voltage at pump. or at least the wires by the strut tower on the driver side rear wheel.
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Originally Posted by ifryrice
(Post 9763875)
If the injector itself is submerged, but the wiring isn't wet, then there's probably nothing to worry about and they'd be working fine. But since you said you pulled them out or whatever already, I'd imagine that puddles long gone.
Do you have a vacuum gauge to see what you're pulling during cranking? Have you tried the simple test of jamming a screwdriver into the AFM and cranking? did you jump the intial set connector and check voltage at pump. or at least the wires by the strut tower on the driver side rear wheel. |
You should be checking for fuel pump operation, voltage and pressure. The AFM should not be suspected, if it is then disconnect it and try to start the car. With the AFM disconnected the car WILL start everytime but shut off immediately.
My bet is on fuel pump voltage. Its very common on these cars and you may have to re-wire it. Check voltage to the pump, jump it or do whatever but thats where your problem is. |
Originally Posted by KhanArtisT
(Post 9763936)
You should be checking for fuel pump operation, voltage and pressure.
The AFM should not be suspected, if it is then disconnect it and try to start the car. With the AFM disconnected the car WILL start everytime but shut off immediately. |
Originally Posted by KhanArtisT
(Post 9763936)
You should be checking for fuel pump operation, voltage and pressure. The AFM should not be suspected, if it is then disconnect it and try to start the car. With the AFM disconnected the car WILL start everytime but shut off immediately.
My bet is on fuel pump voltage. Its very common on these cars and you may have to re-wire it. Check voltage to the pump, jump it or do whatever but thats where your problem is. |
That makes sense, though I don't understand where that would take you in the troubleshooting procedure if it did start the car.
Rule vacuum leaks out of the possible culprits completely. A vacuum leak will not keep the car from starting, it will start and shut off immediately or won't want to idle even in the most extreme cases. I've left a few vacuum ports open, and even left part of the LIM unbolted. Each time the car started but didn't want to idle. Give it a quick look, if nothing obvious/big is unplugged then thats not where the problem is. |
Originally Posted by KhanArtisT
(Post 9764000)
That makes sense, though I don't understand where that would take you in the troubleshooting procedure if it did start the car.
Rule vacuum leaks out of the possible culprits completely. A vacuum leak will not keep the car from starting, it will start and shut off immediately or won't want to idle even in the most extreme cases. I've left a few vacuum ports open, and even left part of the LIM unbolted. Each time the car started but didn't want to idle. Give it a quick look, if nothing obvious/big is unplugged then thats not where the problem is. It's possible the FP relay/etc got wet/flooded, it's near enough to the scene of the original problem. You're running out of things to check. |
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This is interesting.... this is definetly the radiator explosion from hell.... Only thing left to check is fuel pump, how odd out of all things....
Section F1-57 in the S5 FSM shows some information pertaining to the fuel pump resistor relay & circuit opening relay. I can't tell you were those are located though as I've never looked for them. Might be a good idea to check those out.... Edit: I got beat to the post, ifryrice posted the same thing about the fuel pump relay. If it's one of those relays located right in front of the radiator, that is the suspect! Hopefully it's around that area, maybe someone other users can clarify where those two relays are located... |
Originally Posted by ifryrice
(Post 9764019)
It's possible the FP relay/etc got wet/flooded, it's near enough to the scene of the original problem. You're running out of things to check.
When I was ready to remove the soft fuel lines from the secondary rail, I pulled the return line first. I *think* I heard a little gurgling after this, I'm not sure (it's been a few days and I wasn't paying attention to that.) Then I moved over to the delivery hose, wrapping a rag around it to contain any spray. Nothing. The rag didn't soak, no sensation through the rag of an expulsion and no sound of it. Gas did run out of the secondary rail until it was empty, that took a while. Damn, I wish I'd remembered this sooner. :blush: I award 100 forum bucks to ifryrice! :worship: So... the pump is sending but pressure is less than spiffy. I think the next steps are that relay and then the PRC solenoid, page F1-58. After that, the pump itself. Luckily I have spares of everything. :) maybe someone other users can clarify where those two relays are located... |
Originally Posted by Amur_
(Post 9764059)
Damn, I wish I'd remembered this sooner. :blush: I award 100 forum bucks to ifryrice! :worship:
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I'm all out of forum bucks for tonight, but I did catch you this delicious bass.
http://www.lrn.usace.army.mil/op/cor...emouthBass.jpg |
Haha, the fuel pump relay, is located behind the passanger headlight, bolted on the inside infront of the filter location. Right next to the radiator....
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Originally Posted by ifryrice
(Post 9764080)
Haha, the fuel pump relay, is located behind the passanger headlight, bolted on the inside infront of the filter location. Right next to the radiator....
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I'm in suspense, waiting to see what happens. Hope you get it started now..... That pressure regulator control solenoid (on F1-58 like you said) seems possible too, regardless it seems you are on the right track now...
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Originally Posted by jjcobm
(Post 9764096)
I'm in suspense, waiting to see what happens. Hope you get it started now.....
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Originally Posted by Amur_
(Post 9764089)
I was referring to the circuit opening relay on the lower half of the scanned FSM page. The pump relay was sheltered by the custom airbox.
That B/Y wire you tested, should have battery voltage and runs from the coils, all the way back to the injectors. That could be a troublesome sign if the injectors are only seeing +6v on the battery side (they should show +12V on both wires when not cranking/running). If the B/W wire is also being dragged down, it runs to all your solenoids/fuel pump/etc through the circuit-opening and fuel pump relay. Edit: Oh, doing the COR tests will show you the results of the B/W to see if the voltage is dropped before it even heads to the FP, if that's what you meant. |
Originally Posted by ifryrice
(Post 9764131)
The COR is located under the dash, so I don't follow?
I think that you've got some wet connections somewhere that's causing large voltage drop. That B/Y wire you tested, should have battery voltage and runs from the coils, all the way back to the injectors. That could be a troublesome sign if the injectors are only seeing +6v on the battery side (they should show +12V on both wires when not cranking/running). Edit: Oh, doing the COR tests will show you the results of the B/W to see if the voltage is dropped before it even heads to the FP, if that's what you meant. The [F] harness between B3-01 and B3-02 sticks to the driver's side until it hooks in and past the rad. If the rad blew out on both the rear AND the front sides, the loom may have been hit. |
Running out of things left to check! Do you hear the 'running water' sound with the FP jumpered? That's usually a good indicator that the pumps not completely toast (it needs to make decent pressure to escape the FPR). I guess all you've got left is checking the voltage at the fuel pump, if that checks out fine I guess you could measure the injectors spray turning the CAS by hand, but that's a lot of work. It's hard to try to think of what could've happened. Unless water somehow got in the fuel pump relay/resistor housing and is screwing stuff up it's hard to think of what would cause it to act up.
If the FP voltage checks out fine (while not running and running). The injectors could be firing too little fuel or theECU is fubared. |
Originally Posted by jjcobm
(Post 9764037)
This is interesting.... this is definetly the radiator explosion from hell.... Only thing left to check is fuel pump, how odd out of all things....
Section F1-57 in the S5 FSM shows some information pertaining to the fuel pump resistor relay & circuit opening relay. I can't tell you were those are located though as I've never looked for them. Might be a good idea to check those out.... Edit: I got beat to the post, ifryrice posted the same thing about the fuel pump relay. If it's one of those relays located right in front of the radiator, that is the suspect! Hopefully it's around that area, maybe someone other users can clarify where those two relays are located... |
Use noid lights to check injector pulses way easier. They're like 10 bucks at Princess Auto.
BTW ATF destroys carbon (It has a high detergent value), it also makes rubber seals swell and possibly rupture eventually. Which means you'll probably start burning oil if you put ATF In. Any petroleum based product (even aerosols with petroleum based propellants) will destroy rubber.. Unless the rubber is specifically to be submersed or in contact with any petroleum. IE Cup seals in your master cylinder or clutch master, they are designed to be submersed in brake fluid. But your trailing arm bushings or control arm bushings...if you spray WD40 on them its a definite safety hazard. They may stop squeaking, but they can rip or separate at any time. BTW this is in regards to the use of ATF in our engines...I'm not just talking out my ass here lol. |
so what was the voltage at the fuel pump harness into the tank after this test:
did you jump the intial set connector and check voltage at pump. or at least the wires by the strut tower on the driver side rear wheel. |
I got away early and am heading to the car shortly. :)
When looking at the scanned jpg from the FSM, one of the Conditions for the COR test is "Measuring plate: open." Can someone clarify just what this is referring to? https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...2&d=1264560285 BTW ATF destroys carbon (It has a high detergent value) it also makes rubber seals swell and possibly rupture eventually. |
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