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-   -   Propane Injection - Check It Out (https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/propane-injection-check-out-72185/)

LUV94RX7 04-18-02 04:53 AM

Propane Injection - Check It Out
 
Check this thread out.

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...threadid=70050

Ken, 57 years young
'94 white, base, pep, red leather,
mods: street port & polished stage II, 3mm Hurley racing seals, upgraded coolant seals,
AEM ECU,
XS T04e single turbo kit,
SMIC (400+cu.in.),
Aquamist 2s water injection kit,
Propane Injection Kit,
Pettit ss resonated MP,
Pettit ss cat-back,
RP Racing fuel pump,
1600cc injectors,
Profec B(15&20+psi),
3-bar Map Sensor,
Centerforce clutch,
under pulley kit(no air pump),
Pettit short shifter kit,
boost gauge,
LaBreck's bushings,
Evans Coolant
http://nopistons.com/luv94rx7.html

amemiya 04-18-02 05:04 AM

propane is a must for all turbo rotarys and N/A's. it cools down the intake temp by a grip and increases the octane level. and it is only $1.50 to refill.

bingoboy 04-18-02 05:35 AM

ok i checked the other threads and i must ask. how does this stuff work on NA's? i mean there was some guy spouting off his own theories..but does anyone have experience using this with an NA car?

amemiya 04-18-02 05:41 AM

yes it works great with N/A's although they don't need the octiane it will let you get more HP without having to upgrade fuel system and propane come out at roughly -60degF that is 60 below. That will put the smake down on any cold air intake youv'e ever seen eh. we are going to organize a group buy soon. stay tuned. ;)

RexRyder 04-18-02 02:14 PM

what kind off horsepower gains could there be on a Tii and N/A?

RX-7Impreza 04-18-02 02:35 PM

just dont get in a wreck with a bottle of propane. i have seen this used on big trucks but i thought it mainly added a LOT of torque.?.?

bingoboy 04-18-02 04:21 PM

anyone have any links to non diesel info about propane injection?

amemiya 04-18-02 11:19 PM

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...394#post588394


https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...threadid=70050


there is your posts and read the hole thing of each. that way we don't have to keep answering the same questions.

ZachSpazz 04-19-02 09:03 AM

I spoke with Chance (Call911) last night about this and it seems to be a quite legit way of making more power and keeping your apex seals in good condition. :) I am seriously considering going this route once my TII is running again, I'm just concerned about the amount of propane in a tank and how long it'll last.

Josepi 04-19-02 09:39 AM


Originally posted by ZachSpazz
I spoke with Chance (Call911) last night about this and it seems to be a quite legit way of making more power and keeping your apex seals in good condition. :) I am seriously considering going this route once my TII is running again, I'm just concerned about the amount of propane in a tank and how long it'll last.
Could just use a N2O bottle ;)

darkwaveboi 04-19-02 09:48 AM

get a dry nitrous system but refill w/ propane :biggrin:

ZachSpazz 04-19-02 11:31 AM


Originally posted by Josepi


Could just use a N2O bottle ;)

GIVE ME TWO TANKS! I NEED NOS!

PraxRX7 04-19-02 11:57 AM

hmmm...
 
I was talking to some engineers from Korea, and they mentioned something similar...Hydrogen Cell Injection System. Improves insane HP #'s and improves gas mileage. I just don't like the idea of a bottle of Hydrogen in my car, it can't be any safer than NOS.

But each cell is supposed to last like 1800 kilometers. (1100 miles?). Man the conversion from Kilometers to miles is as bad as the conversion (loss) from Canadian dollars to US dollars...YARG LoL

amemiya 04-19-02 06:36 PM

yeah but where do you refill your hydrogen at your nearest NASA biulding? J/K

amemiya 04-21-02 03:59 AM

you probly can get the hydrogen filled at paces the you buy aseteline(the gas you weld with) from. but the propane sounds alittle more safe. does anyone know the octine level of hydrogen??

George84 12-05-04 10:48 PM

I know I am bring this thread back from the dead, but did anyone ever put this propane kit on their RX? I just sent "WELSH TECHNOLOGIES" an e-mail about an RX-7 kit. Why did this thing blow over, is there something I don't know about this propane kit? It looks like a good idea.

DerangedHermit 12-05-04 10:59 PM


Originally Posted by ZachSpazz
GIVE ME TWO TANKS! I NEED NOS!

By tonight? :rolleyes:

George84 12-07-04 01:05 PM

Alright guys I got some e-mails back for them, what do you guys think about this system? It don't look to expensive. Here are the e-mails I got:

Jonathan Welsh <welshtec@earthlink.net> wrote:
Thank you for inquiry into Welsh Technologies products. Our Mizer-MFS Multi-Fuel System is a ideal application for your vehicle. The Mizer-MFS is a economic solution to increase the mileage and performance of your vehicle while reducing emissions to near-zero levels. The Mizer-MFS treats, controls, and injects a small measured equality of propane into the engine to maximize the combustion efficiency of the gasoline or diesel fuel. Instead of throwing the unburnt fuel away as harmful exhaust into the air or burning it up in the catalytic converter with out benefit of the energy; the Mizer-MFS allows maximize combustion of all the fuels in the engine with you getting benefit of the fuel's energy.

The Mizer-MFS is patented and patent pending alternate fuel system that has been engineered to be installed easy without any conversion or adjustment of the vehicle's engine; so there is not concerns with vehicle tampering or OEM warranties. The Mizer-MFS comes with a step by step installation manual and sells for $275.00 plus shipping. In addition to the Mizer-MFS an on-board storage for propane fuel is required. We offer our patented Propane 'Safety' Reservoirs starting at $330.00, that includes a remote mount 'Zero-Release Quick-Fill' and incorporates automatic overfill protection; or a conventional vehicle propane tank can be used; or even a barbecue cylinder if properly mounted and vented, although not recommended. For your vehicle I would recommend our 7 Gallon 'Safety' LPG Reservoir for $350.00. The only other items needed for installation would be copper refrigerant tubing, local available at plumbing or hardware stores, and miscellaneous items; all fittings are included.

The Mizer-MFS is classified by the US Department of Energy as a 'dual-fuel' alternate fuel system and if installed with a permanent reservoir or tank allows for a federal tax deduction and vehicles credits.

I would be happy to send you a brochure or address any of your questions or you can refer to our web site, www.welshtec.com, or call us with any questions. See what the Mizer-MFS can do for your vehicle!

Jonathan Welsh
President
WELSH TECHNOLOGIES
Box 4214, River Edge, NJ 07661
201/489-3465
Fax: 201/489.3110
Email: welshtec@earthlink.net
www.welshtec.com

Heres the second one:

A brochure will be in today's mail for you. One of the benefits of the Multi-Fuel system is that it increases the low end torque performance of the engine due to the enhanced combustion efficiency. It does not make your vehicle a rocket or increases RPM like a turbo, but gives a increase to the low end torque so it seems like your engine has more power at acceleration and if you have a automatic transmission you will notice it says in the gears more steadily even at going up hill. We find that most customers feel the increase in power and forget about it until they run out of the propane; where the vehicle returns to the pre-performance levels. So it doesn't occur again they keep filling up with propane. A common comment is that when the propane runs out it feels like a anchor went out. In fleets where the vehicle operators don't care about the emissions and saving benefits the performance increase keeps them refueling with the propane.

The system is nothing like a nitrous setup. The Mizer-MFS injects a constant flow of treated gaseous propane at all times of engine operation and injects more at load conditions, which is determined by a internal sensor that monitors the vacuum condition of the intake manifold in gasoline engines and a external throttle switch for diesel engine applications.

Jonathan Welsh
WELSH TECHNOLOGIES

rexman13b 12-07-04 01:39 PM


Originally Posted by amemiya
you probly can get the hydrogen filled at paces the you buy aseteline(the gas you weld with) from. but the propane sounds alittle more safe. does anyone know the octine level of hydrogen??



you don't weld with ACETYLENE, that's used for cutting torches along with oxygen. you weld with a mixture of %75 argon %25 CO2 for steel and for aluminum 100% argon.

RXSevenSymphonies 12-07-04 01:51 PM

No you DO weld with acetylene and oxygen. It's the old school crappy way of welding with just gas, not used much anymore.

Bukwild 12-07-04 01:53 PM

I have been in a pickup truck that was converted over to running propane out of a backyard tank in the bed of the truck. The truck was a chevy 454 and it used to put the smack down on alot of people that my freind tried to race. He also got around 70 miles per gallon when we figured out how far you could go on a tank of propane vs the cost of a tank of gas. This also was in the summer heat of Pensacola FL so I don't think the warmer climates effect this. Its worth a shot in a rotary. I have a freind who has a na with no title so we might have to sacrafice it for the good of all rotory owners

Tiers 12-07-04 01:56 PM

This system does seem well suited to our cars. I guess my only concern is the holding tank and mounting as in car is both dangerous(no trunk) and cluttery (sp?).

If there were a way to mount an under vehicle tank I would be quite interested. I guess crash safety concerns would prohibit under car mounting (if even possible).

I have seen several sites where RX-7's have been converted but none as this easily applied (well from what I can gather from there non modern site).

Does anyone have any further input on this or has or is going to check it out?

Terry

gerbraldy 12-07-04 02:03 PM

is propane injection better than running a nice dual stage water injection?

Tiers 12-07-04 02:11 PM

Different application, this is discussing an alternative fuel/ Multi-Fuel System ,which is used to actually help power the vehicle. Water injection is basically cooling an intake charge.

gerbraldy 12-07-04 02:18 PM

I know that propane is used to make fuel more beneificial, but I know just slapping a water injection kit on a car at the same psi will give you at the least 15hp, not to mention the extra couple psi you can boost your stock turbo. What I was asking is which one will give you more hp for the money, water injection kits are $325 for a nice one, $235 for one that works good. or you can make your own for even cheaper.

Tiers 12-07-04 02:33 PM

k gotcha, but still diif story altogether and so far know of no one that has tried this so no basis for comparison.

brakar 12-07-04 02:33 PM

From what I've read, with propane you will see low end torque gains along with improved millage and emmisions and it will also cool the intake charge because propane comes out at -60F(don't quote me on this i read it in another tread).

With the water injection system you say you can turn up the boost because of better cooling. So I guess it depends what you want, better lowend torque (which our cars need) or more boost. I guess the best thing to do would get both systems. :D

rs_1101 12-07-04 02:45 PM

any decent full power benefits? i was thinking.. at my work we sell little 2 liter propanes for like 2$.. could be great for a quick jolt, or a long cruise.

Kingofl337 12-07-04 02:49 PM

Only thing I don't like is it doesn't do anything with the stock computer to reduce the amount of fuel sprayed by the computer. I don't think our computers are smart enough to lean out the mix enough to increase MPG signifigantly.

gerbraldy 12-07-04 02:59 PM

mmmm low end torque, mmmmm.. I wish I had 500ft.lbs instead of 190 :D

rs_1101 12-07-04 03:06 PM

whats the octane rating of propane?

Kenteth 12-07-04 03:28 PM


Originally Posted by RXSevenSymphonies
No you DO weld with acetylene and oxygen. It's the old school crappy way of welding with just gas, not used much anymore.

albiet argon is a better way to go, it may be old school, but by no means crappy. Ever see a decent acetylene gas weld. Loosk 40 times better than a mig weld.

rexman13b 12-07-04 03:32 PM


Originally Posted by RXSevenSymphonies
No you DO weld with acetylene and oxygen. It's the old school crappy way of welding with just gas, not used much anymore.


you're talking about brazing, which is different than welding

George84 12-07-04 03:37 PM

this thread is not about welding or brazing, its about Propane Injection. I think this stuff looks good and not to expensive, maybe we could get a group buy. I just wish I knew the hp gains.

driftmunkey 12-07-04 04:13 PM

I dont think you can rate an octaine level of propaine, it is a different hydro carbon than octaine and has a different molecular structure. And you can weld with oxy/acetylene, you can weld steel with a filler rod thats different than a braizing rod, has no flux on it.

Mage 12-07-04 04:24 PM

I had a 94 Ram 250 Van that was propane powers Nice amount of power but with 4 tanks (this was a fatory propane powered car) the tanks are fiberglass and are nice might want to check e-bay for one there small and can fit underneath the car (or in the back) never recked one but from what I read about them they just crack open and nothing happends hehe. though gas mil on pure propane sucks on the 4 tanks (50gal I belive) we could go to pittsbugh airport and back one one fill (about 160miles) but then again that's 94 tech on 04 tech. might try this on my BII. o and finding fill stations sucked normal propane retailer would not fill them.

Peace
Mage

brakar 12-07-04 04:35 PM


Originally Posted by Mage
I had a 94 Ram 250 Van that was propane powers Nice amount of power but with 4 tanks (this was a fatory propane powered car) the tanks are fiberglass and are nice might want to check e-bay for one there small and can fit underneath the car (or in the back) never recked one but from what I read about them they just crack open and nothing happends hehe. though gas mil on pure propane sucks on the 4 tanks (50gal I belive) we could go to pittsbugh airport and back one one fill (about 160miles) but then again that's 94 tech on 04 tech. might try this on my BII. o and finding fill stations sucked normal propane retailer would not fill them.

Peace
Mage

You need to learn how to use punctuation dude. That was very hard to read. ;)

bingoboy 12-07-04 04:53 PM

I really wish they had some pictures of an installed kit and a bit more specifics on the parts invovled. I was always interested in the idea of running propane injection like this.

bingoboy 12-07-04 04:59 PM

price isn't bad. who's getting one to let us know how it works?

StonedDrone 12-07-04 05:02 PM

ya ya someone get one and let us know =p

locketine 12-07-04 05:06 PM

Propane is a slow burning fuel, so those that are afraid of blowing up with a tank in ur car don't have a reason to be. Propane is used in a wide variety of cooling applications so this does make some sense, although I don't see how it's possible that the kit stops fuel from being dumped into the cat. I mean, more fuel is going into the chamber (propane) which is reducing the temps which actually lowers the combustion abilities of any fuel. For turbo's this makes a lot of sense, NA's, not so much.

Kouta 12-07-04 06:12 PM

I'm also interested in how to mount the tank.
Could ya mount it front to back rather than along the rear tires... would seem better that way incase of a side collision.
Also... the tax reimbursment/writeoff thing states you have to have the tank installed permanantly...
well what defines a permanant installation, everything in cars can be taken apart more or less...

rs_1101 12-07-04 06:42 PM

that and now youre doomed to lug around a 60 lb tank of propane for the rest of your cars life. thats waht turns me off.

RXSevenSymphonies 12-08-04 06:21 AM


Originally Posted by rexman13b
you're talking about brazing, which is different than welding

No, I'm not. Brazing, Welding, and Cutting can all be done with oxyacetylene.

Brazing - more acetylene than oxygen = carburizing flame
Welding - equal acetylene and oxygen = neutral flame
Cutting - more oxygen than acetylene = oxidizing flame


Originally Posted by Kenteth
albiet argon is a better way to go, it may be old school, but by no means crappy. Ever see a decent acetylene gas weld. Loosk 40 times better than a mig weld.

Well it's definitely crappy from my experience, but my experience was only a couple hours so that's not really enough to get a good feel for it. The best MIG vs gas welds I've seen looked pretty similar, but then MIG would be better because it was much faster and heated a much smaller range of the metal around the weld. Actually, in my autotech material it says MIG is superior not only because of it's speed and narrow heat affect range, but because it produces 100% fusion of the base metals, which is nearly impossible with oxyacetylene.

Bukwild 12-08-04 07:10 AM

I was thinking of installing it in the trunk of my vert with a "roll cage" around it with 2 locked hinges to get it out. Or riging up a hose to fill the trunk tank from a external tank that would would buy for your grill. But you would definatly get some crazy ass looks filling your car up with propane.
I guess the wideband would be able to tell you what your air to fuel ratio is. I just bought this one for $349. Cant wait until it gets here
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/
actually their installation and tuning videos sold this to me. You should check them out

Tofuball 12-08-04 07:33 AM

I've heard of this on Diesel trucks a lot. Never heard of using this in a gasoline engine :O

OverDriven 12-08-04 07:35 AM


Originally Posted by rs_1101
that and now youre doomed to lug around a 60 lb tank of propane for the rest of your cars life. thats waht turns me off.

Why do you say that? Theres all kinds of propane tank sizes. If you are only goingt to be using it during a drag race, then you could go for one of the small Coleman propane tanks.

-Joe

Bukwild 12-08-04 08:13 AM

Tofuball can we try this on your spare NA car?

Tofuball 12-08-04 08:16 AM

Whitch spare N/A car? :-p I have three N/A cars.

If you want to, we can try this on the white one, but it is not together yet.

Kouta 12-08-04 12:03 PM

going to do this to my car once i get the brochure in the mail and finalize costs.


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