Pre-mix oil and motor oils... which are you guys using?
 

After searching a few threads, it seems like there's some very different opinions in different oils to use. If I remember reading correctly, many people said they use regular Wal-Mart 2 cycle oil for a regular tank of gas, and Redline synthetic 2 cycle oil for racing. What other brands are out there thay may work better for both applications?

My next question. After the OMP is removed, if I remember correctly, you can run syntethic oil in the car. I was thinking of using something like a Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W50 oil because that's the thickest oil they make in Extended Performance. Currently with the OMP, I'm running Castrol 20W50 and I absolutely love it. So, what are you guys running?

I have tried a couple, I would recommend AMSOIL SABER PROFESSIONAL pre-mix
I tried that idemitsu and had issues with it fouling plugs and leaving some funny looking deposits on my plugs and foul them out. I would recommend the amsoil because it doesnt leave any deposits, burns clean, and works great. I also do not run a OMP anymore because my management cant control it. I usually run 4 oz. per 5 gallons. I have also had good luck with that protek R that pettit sells.

I also would recommend AMSOIL 20W50 series 2000 severe duty racing synthetic oil. That is what I use in my 560 whp FD and oil pressure stays rock solid where other brands at the same weight would thin out and I would loose oil pressure.
It also is great for that reason of fuel dilution, I run only C16 all the time.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this: It doesn't matter.

Any 2 stroke oil that is rated for fuel injection is fine.

Any engine oil of the weight recommended by Mazda for your conditions is fine.

FWIW, I don't run premix and just use Penzoil/Castrol/whatever's cheapest 20W-50 in the summer, and 10W-30 when it's cool out.

amsoil is THE BEST premix you can use. no it doesnt effect how your car runs, but it will not let ANY carbon build up in your engine. ive seen a jspec t2 engine that was premixed only on amsoil. we ended up tearing it down because the car was totaled and the rotors were cleaner than any ive ever seen. all the carbon that was built up had come off in chunks and actually ended up taking out an apex seal. so, if you have a used engine, use the valvoline two stroke crap, but on a rebuilt engine amsoil awesome, it will keep your rotors super clean.

ah man, do we need to cover this again???

$%&#@@ ()_8&%$@!567*&*~!!~<>?:}{*(&^%$###@!)

Okay, first of all, please read the FAQ for FC sticky thread before posting Many of the commonly aksed questions such as the one above have been covered.

2nd. Using a synthetic you can not extend oil changes past what the Mazda recommended intervals are. Regardless of the type of oil. Personally I wouldn't recommend exceeding 5000 miles with an oil change on a rotary powered vehicle regardless of the oil type.

3rd. If the MOP is functioning or not, has little to nothing to do with oil choice.

4th. Weight of the oil, should be determined by the service duty for the car. If you are driving in colder temps, a 10W30 would be appropriate. If you are starting and driving in temps consistently above 50F then a heavier weight would be more appropriate. Choosing the wrong weight for where you are driving will result in insufficent oil protection.

5th. Synthetic oils in most cases are for applications where cost of the oil is not a consideration. Some will offer increased performance, but that is more the exception that the rule. In addition most of the synthetic oils made by the mass manufactures are not really synthetic, but rather extra refined with additional additive packages. Castrol, Pennziol, and Valvoline synthetics are classic examples of that.

Castrol 15W40 Tection Extra in my RX-7s

I did read the FAQ in the archives, but it seemed like there was more a dispute between to pre-mix or not, rather than which oils to actually use. I do not plan to exceed the 3000 mile mark for an oil change. The reason I want to use the Extended Performance is because it is a better oil, and seems to come out much cleaner than the conventional stuff. I've run it in all my cars besides my RX-7, and have come to like it very much. I remember reading that you do not want to use synthetic oils in a car that is still equipped with the OMP because synthetic oils were not made to be burned, and therefore they were bad to run with the OMP. I read that RETed recommends using the Valvoline pre-mix oil, some just use the Wal-Mart stuff, and some swear by the Amsoil or Redline pre-mix oil. It seems that not all pre-mix oils are synthetic either, so wouldn't that make a difference too? People have said that using certain brands of pre-mix oil cause more carbon build up than others too.

Now about the motor oil. It seems like 20W50 is the best to go with, basically the thickest stuff you can get. I know that when it's colder outside, you want to use a lighter weight oil. I saw this last year when I ran the car in colder weather, that the oil pressure was lower because of the thicker oil. I think my first run is going to be with the 15W50 Mobil 1 and see how that works, then maybe change from there.

If you look at most "extended life" motor oils, they do not add extra protection like you are thinking, but rather they add extra Zinc as a anti-wear additive. The zinc is only used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine. Hopefully the oil will do its job and this will rarely occur, but if it does, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing and wear. A level of .11% is enough to protect an automobile engine for a 8000 mile oil drain interval, under normal use. More doesn't give you better protection, it gives you longer protection if the rate of metal to metal contact is abnormally high. High zinc content can lead to deposit formation and plug fouling.

I do not ever recommend extended life oils in rotary motors for that reason.

I'm running 5w40 oil year round. I'm a little negliget with oil change intervals but do recommend the 3k/4mo OCI regardless of oil chosen.
I never did care for the feel of the thicker oils. Thicker oils rob power.
Since everyone thinks you need to adjust oil weight with temperature, then maybe you should monitor and address the oil cooling system. My engine was peppiest with 5w30 M1 in the summer. If I had a bigger pan, I'd run 0w20 year round.

The only issue I see with synthetic oils is the cost. Because it costs more, some will not check the oil level and top off as needed. Others think that they can push the OCI to 5k, 7, 10k, or more. Big mistake. The filtration capacity is a joke in most gasoline engines. And, fuel dilution is a big issue in the rotary.
Fuel dilution can be addressed with MORE FREQUENT oil changes and for the lucky ones, a good dyno tune with a piggyback or $tandalone, or heated filtration to remove fuel dilution(and moisture) but is too expensive($550+), eats 10 amps of power, and takes up underhood space. 3k oil changes is very cheap insurance.

Other then marketing gimmics, there are no 'extended' oils. Thats just a sales marketing point. Mobil sold 2 5w30 oils a decade ago, mineral or synth. Now they have 1/2 dozen: 5k oil, 7.5k oil, high mileage oil, blend, and 3 synthetics(regular, EP, T&S)..... Advertising sells.

If you remove or disable the oil metering system, then ANY 2-stroke certified oil is good. This oil should have one or more of the following: NMMA(TCW#), API(TC), ISO-LEGD , JASO(F#) and/or certain MFG specs. IMO, brand is less important then gas:oil ratio which should be adjusted for power level.

UCL's are NOT substitutes for 2-stroke oil. Common UCL's are Marvel, Lucas, Lubrigas, Fuelpower, and some gasoline additives/FI cleaners..........
I do recommend these for people with WORKING oil metering systems. These will also work well as supplements to 2-stroke oil and some will help prevent carbon issues caused by running to rich in oil or fuel.

Most certified 2-strokes are blended to burn clean and include cleaners. So, if you get carbon issues(like fouling plugs), you could either swtich brands or adjust your premix ratio.

im not gona cover evrything that has been coverd in this thread and meany others. Just a few days ago evrything was awnserd well and differances in some typs of 2cycle oils.

I run Klotz R50 with RP 20w50 or Redline just depends on the car and what I can purchas.

I understand that you should not push the 3000 mile oil change interval, which I do not. I always change mine at 3000 miles. So, as a general rule, are synthetics just bad for rotary engines, or what? I remember reading the only time a synthetic was bad for them is if you were running the OMP, or if you were using a cheap synthetic. I know that synthetic oils are supposed to add more protection than the conventional oils, so I wanted to go that route. The Extended Performance is supposed to have extra performance additives to help protect the engine and prevent oil breakdown, which is obviously what you're looking for. I've also talked to dDuB about it, and it seems like extended performance oils have a higher ash content, which is obviously bad for our engines. It seems like all synthetic oils are extended performance oils, so will I not be able to run them or what? I'll basically be buying the thickest oil I can find in a specific brand because I will not have to worry about cold weather anymore with my car, so that's not a problem.

For brands, it's really a toss up it seems. If you want to spend the extra money, it seems like Amsoil, Idemitsu, and Redline are the way to go, but if you're looking to go a little cheaper, Valvoline or a regular Wal-Mart brand are the way to go. Now, about using the synthetic pre-mix oils. Are they supposed to add more protection like the motor oils, or what is the deal with them? I see most companies make a conventional and synthetic pre-mix oil too. I understand that any of them will work, but why do certain people swear by one brand and people swear by others? And a good mix if I remember right is 100:1, or 1 oz pre-mix oil per gallon of gas?

Oil change
N/A 3-5k miles
Turbo 2-3k miles

no synthetic on n/as
only synthetic on turbos

On the indemsu premix, has anyone else noticed that it has no ratings (such as TWC 3).

fuck idemitsu

I agree. Waste of money. Haven't seen any difference except more smoke at idle.

Oh and why is that?

I use Sunoco tcw3. Seems to make alot of carbon but, Im probably using too much. 1oz per gallon. Ive read so many different opinions on how much to use and what to use that I think its easier to say "to each his own"

your going to have to back that one up with some facts...

That just shows you meany people dont know and just dont listen.

I hear that the best oil to go with, and i use, is the Castrol GTX. I use the 20W-50 in the warmer months and prob will go to the 10W-30 for the colder months. I think it is great stuff, runs smoth, comes out smooth.

And does it really matter all that much to use synthetic on n/a's opposed to turbo?

Opps, made a typo....I use 4 oz. per 10 gallons of fuel. Demetrios K. of reactive racing recommends Klotz and is what he used when his car was still on race gas, now he uses the Klotz top lube for methanol. Amsoil is also what ErnieT, Ray wilson uses over at PFS. Oil is just personal choice really. Rotaries usually dont have alot of oil related failures to begin with, unless your oil cooler fins are bent over and not allowing air flow through the fins and you beat the car repeatedly and get your oil temps over 300 degree's...your stationary gear bearing doesnt like that...from personal experience :)

Idk alot of false info goes around here and thats just what I read somewhere

so why did you post further false information???when you posted:

there is a huge range of premix ratios going on around here. most seem to be arbitrary numbers. any reason you mix 1/320? is your OMP still hooked up?

i usually mix an ounce per gallon but have recently decided to try 2. no noticable difference. my OMP is still hooked up, but is leaking and letting very little oil into the intake.

i've heard people mixing anywhere from 3oz/1gal to negligible amounts like 1/320 and out of all these premix threads i haven't heard one definitive, logical answer as to what ratio people should be running. it's possible that i missed that though. :)

hmm funny, im on the same books as alexdimen, read too much different ratios, and i just decided to stick with 12 oz per 14 gallon, cos its easy to guestimate (3 lines = 12 oz...) lol

i use vavoline stuff, its the cheapest stuff i can get without going out of my way. sometimes i do mistakenly ad 16 oz to like 13 -14 gallons, then again that usually happens when i go fill up at like early in the morning... 4 am anyone? i just keep pouring and then OH CRAP... then i just cut back a little on the next 2 fillups, i dont know how much is actually required for wide open operation, but if nothing is breaking, then why change the habit.

if someone is truly knowledgeble about this premix information, post numbers with facts backing it up, and ill follow and new rule if it makes enough sense to me. :)...

oh yeah i got a carbby fc.... thats why im premixing. omp gone since its a s5 electrical crap, no tps, no correct signal to omp IF i am correct. I can be wrong..

I posted earlier in the thread that I do no have a OMP anymore, I run the Electromotive TEC3R and it doesnt control it. I run the expensive 30 dollar a piece NGK 10.5 race plugs, and this is what most the big whp guys use as far as a ratio for the most part, people like Ari, Ray, ErnieT, me, etc...you dont need that much and too much def. fouls them out esp my plugs. I use to run that idemitsu crap, not anymore, it kept fouling my plugs, leaving funny deposits on my plugs, and it required to use 1/2 an ounce per gallon, so it was concentrated I assume. Anyway, I switched back to AMSOIL and never had a problem since. I just experimented with mixtures, and it seems to run best with this ratio...everycar is different in how its setup is and what it requires to run its best. Just do some experimenting on your own...

no one seems to like the stuff but Idemitsu is printed 1/2oz per gallon.

Yup, I posted that in my earlier post, 1/2 oz per gallon, stuff looked like cooking oil, lol.

Sry, I didn’t see you hade thrown that up there earlier, I was just posting for the info of MT.

-good thing I read this post, I was just about to order a whole case of the Idemitsu pre-mix.

I had always thought you should run 1 oz per gallon without the omp, and whatever makes you feel good if its still on. Most people tend to say 1 oz per 2 or 3 gallons if its off, though. I agree with aaron on the pre-mix. Anything with tcw-3 rating is perfectly fine. Many people run wal-mart premix with no problems. I typically just get a gallon jug of marine outboard premix and keep it behind the seat next to my coolant.

i can honestly say i've been running 1/128 for a while now and have had no problems with the plugs or running conditions and still none after a month of 1/64. the car is a close to stock na pulling 17 in/hg at idle.

have you done any teardowns on engines running 1/320? i'm interested in how the housing chrome and compression seals fared.

edit: found a good FAQ on royal purple's website. they recommend mix ratios based on what the OMP injects.

they recommend:

200:1 to 800:1 with the omp enabled

150:1 to 600:1 with the omp disabled

http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/faqsa.html#re2

From what I read in the archive and from a few other threads, the most popular ratio WITHOUT the OMP is a 100:1 ratio, or 1 oz. per gallon of gas. Some people recommend 170:1 mix because they don't like the smoke, but a 100:1 mix seems to be a safer alternative.

Well, it seems that basically every company that makes regular motor oil also makes 2 cycle oil. Seems like choosing a brand on a 2 cycle oil is basically like choosing a brand for regular motor oil. It all depends on what you were raised on or what you are biased towards or what you wanna spend the money on.

The only real concern that I have about our cars is using synthetic oil and synthetic 2 cycle oil. Mobil 1 states that their synthetic oils have a low ash content, which is good for our cars especially. I know that synthetic oils have extra additives in them to prevent oil breakdown, which would be especially nice for a rotary engine since they're made to be driven hard occasionally. I love the Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil in my turbo Probe, as it always comes out cleanly, and it quieted down my lifters significantly. This is why I am tempted to go with something like that, but in a heavier weight like 15W50. So, is it the synthetic oils that carry the extra zinc content, or is that just the "extended life" oils?

actually because of the design of the oil, most synthtics have fewer additives than conventional oils, making them typically cleaner burning and with fewer things to rob power and lubrication.

The exception to that rule is the conventional oil Group 2 base stocks refined to the point that someone can call them a synthetic (cough, Castrol, Cough, Valvoline), and need additive packages (just like conventional oils) to meet the viscosity and shear ranges.

But as an example, Mobil1 10W30 (a good moderate temp year round weight) has no additive package to get the viscosity range.

Most all "extended life" oils (regardless of synthetic or conventional) just add extra zinc as a solution. Of course that zinc only protects when the oil has failed anyway... so there is little point.

Some "extended life" oils also add additional polymers that supposedly last longer, but then you have the issues of those polymers burning clean in high reving 4 stroke, or two stroke, or Rotary applications.

As I (and a few other Oil guys) have mentioned before. The only real test for oil is sending off samples evey 1000 miles and seeing how it breaks down in your particular application.

I run Idemitsu synthetic motor oil and premix in my N/A. I may switch to Royal Purple. Does it matter? Not very much. Dino oil works fine. So why do I spend the money? I get part of the money back, a couple HP, and better protection of course. Fuel dilution only happens in turbos. Maybe b/c the pressure is higher, I dunno. Always change the oil in turbos on time. N/A's with synthetics should be able to have longer oil drain intervals, which offsets part of the cost. After 3,000 miles a synthetic oil has roughly the properties of brand new dino oil, so why change it? The synthetics listed in the FAQ burn clean and won't shrink your seals. Plus you get a couple HP and half an mpg, which offsets the cost too. So you save $50 in gas over 1-2 oil changes and you don't have to do them as often. Not bad. 'course you spend up to $45 on the oil change and $15-$30 on the refill oil (unless your OMP is disabled).

Umm yea that would be incorrect.

Fuel dilution? That happens in all gas loving motors.
Do you know why you change the oil? Obviously not. Same propertys as dino? That is kinda bogus and still has nothing to do with why you change your oil.

There are so many things wrong with that, I don't know where to start...:(

#1 Fuel dilution does not only happen in turbos. Common on non turbos that have been flooded or are starting to see side seal leakage.

#2 (and this one has been covered countless times) The reason to change the oil between 3000- and 5000 miles is not for how the oil is broken down. Even most conventional oils are perfectly fine at 5000 miles as far as viscosity and shear protection (and I recommend 5000 mile oil changes myself for non turbo 13B motors). But the real reason to change the oil is because of the build up of acids, metal and carbon contaimination. The acids, metal and carbon build up that is not filtered out becomes a liquied sand paper. Older motors with lower compression will have this happen much quicker than newer motors with fresh seals, accellerating the seal failure. Now many synthetics claim acid neutralizing compounds, but again they only work for a limited time (as proven by aftermarket testing of used oil samples).

Now if you had an ultra efficent oil filter that removed the acids and other ultra small particles (and the Mazda filter is good, probably the best, but not that good in the overall demands needed for extended drain intervals) well, with an filter capable of taking out those blowby and combustion by products then you might be able to have extended drain intervals.

Amsoil, claims increased service life for their synthetics to one year oil changes as long as you use their oil filter and don't have the following concerns:

Not too many of our cars for people that post here fit into that catagory of missing all those concerns, now do they.

There are still vehicles that need 3K oil changes, but it's not because the oil goes bad after 3K miles. One example is the Saturn S series. These vehicles have a timing chain system that is very sensitive to clean oil because oil pressure is used as hydraulic fluid to ratchet up the timing chain tensioner. If varnish forms in the timing chain tensioner bore then this system can fail and the chain will become loose and eventually break. Dealers have gone as far as tearing out the normal service schedule (6000 miles) and leaving only the severe service schedule.

The only real way to determine whether oil is truly in need of changing is to have an oil analysis performed. Since most people don't want to bother with this, it's acceptable to err heavily on the safe side and simply follow the manufacturer's recommended change interval for severe service. There are still a few new cars that specify 3K intervals for severe service, but not many. If you look at countries other than the U.S., the oil recommended change interval is much higher than even the normal interval specified by vehicle manufacturers in the U.S. However Mazda does recommend severe service intervals to be considered on our FCs.

#3 You claim better protection... better protection of what? what are you claiming that no synthetic oil claims (now they all claim excellent protection- but none claim better protection--- because there is nothing that they are comparing it too).

In fact, this is what all synthetics claim
Now wait... lets look what the commonly used Castrol says about their GTX oil:
So which one is better... they both are designed for the same thing, yet not one claims a better protection against one or another. In fact if you follow the standards, the Castrol is actually a better oil because is meets the Ford ESE-M@2C153F and G standards.

And you do not save gas at all using synthetic oils. This has long been proven, unless you can keep from using the 2 extra peak horses that some synthetics provide. But of course no synthtic oil manufacture claims increased gas mileage (although Redline does claim increased efficency).

And finally, if you have a cat converter still on your car:

Never use a non-API certified synthetic oil (there are many of these on the market). The problem with the non-API certified synthetics is that they contain too much phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates). The API has limited the amount of phosphorus because phosphorus shortens the life of the catalytic converter. These oils are fine for snowmobiles, motorcycles, and older cars that don't have a catalytic converter, and the extra ZDDP does provide additional wear protection.

Unfortunately, the marketers of some the non-certified oils do not explicitly and honestly state the reason for the lack of API certification. You can check the status of API certification on the API web site. Be certain to go not just by the manufacturer name but by the actual product as well. This is because a manufacturer will sometimes have both certified and non-certified products. Suffice it to say that Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Castrol, & Havoline all make synthetic oils that are API certified and that can be purchased at auto parts stores and other retail outlets. Amsoil has one product line, XL-7500 that is API certified, but it's other lines contain too much ZDDP to be certified and should not be used in vehicles with catalytic converters.

Last I checked Idemitsu Rotary was not API certifed (and made by Gema Oil [Turkey] made to Idemitsu specs).

Man you took all the fun out of it :-P

Evrytime this comes up same old same old 5 people post good information 10more that know dont post and 50 people with info you cant fathem how they ever heard in the first place post.

Group I-II are both conventionals. Valvoline, etc are Group III oils as their base stock has undergone hydrocracking and reformulation. Hydrocracking is not a natural process as molecules are being broken down in an unnatural way into different compounds through the use of a hydrogen as a catalyst (as well as high temeprature and pressure) and then again reformulated into the compounds they want leaving, impurities out. The final product may be a naturally occuring substance but the process through which is was made was not and this is what makes a synthetic what it is. The term synthetic is misleading. Group IV and V base stocks also undergo hydrocracking but typically starting with a different base material. Fortunately through a little help from chemistry we can take molecules from different compounds, break them down and put them back together the way we want them to get the final product. As the end result goal of all Group III-V oils is the same, just starting out with a different compound, they can each be considered equal in terms of quality. None of them were reached through simple distillation so technically they are all synthetics, even the Group III. To say that they are not synthetics only because they are "more refined" is inaccurate. All synthetics are "more refined". More refined is a good thing in every way. Every synthetic started out as something natural and most of them started out as a product that was a result of a level of distillation of crude oil. The process is what determines whether or not it is a synthetic.

Every oil has an additive package. That's what makes a motor oil a motor oil. Without the additive package, you don't have motor oil. All of them have different additive packages to get the desired viscosity as all motor oils of the same type share the same base stock. Everything that is not the base stock is an additive. This includes the detergents. The base stock and the additive packages are each important for their own reasons.

There is so much to oils that is just too hard to describe on a forum.

Synthetics have less impurities (like varnish - yes, clearcoat!) and breakdown less easily. They also require less additives to get the right properties, leaving more room for detergents. So impurities build up slower (miles not months). They also tend to have higher TBN numbers (acid resistance additives), usually 50% higher. So they can stay in longer (months not miles). And I do use a better oil filter with synthetics. Mobil 1 and AMS filters are the best I've read about. AMS oil will not guarantee extended oil changes on dino oil plus their oil filter, nor their oil plus a regular filter. You need both. AMS oil guarantees 25,000 mile or 1 year oil changes, or up to triple your recommended oil drain interval (whichever is lower). But AMS oil's TBN number is triple that of typical dino oil.

It is true that you can run good dino oil to 5000 miles, though. And yes, if you flood you need to change your oil regardless of everything else. My engine only has 110k miles and seems to be in excellent shape, so I'm not worried about fuel seal leaks.

I was aware of the problem with non-API certified synthetics and don't mind replacing my cat early. It will be a great excuse to get a performance cat. Right now my cat is in great shape. All oils contain phosphorous, the non-certified synthetics just contain more. It won't blow your cat right away. New cats are supposed to last 150,000 miles. API makes sure the oil doesn't ruin that. Not a problem in piston engines, btw, since synthetics get burnt less than dino oils in those engines.

For a good dino oil everyone seems to recommend Castrol GTX, I'd say with good reason.

And yet it matters so little. I was worried because of these forums and read seemingly hundreds of pages of very detailed info from various sources. I now use synthetic because of this, but I also know good dino oil will still do a wonderful job. And now I can tell you why 10w40 isn't quite as good as other weights. So sad.

Thanks for clearing that up, and correcting my answer.

Yes, however some synthetics do not have an additive package for Viscosity (I guess I was not clear on that) and reach the range off of formulations instead. Of course they all still add additives for acid reduction, and soot suspension for just a few other examples. Its just viscosity is met with the claim of no additional additives to get the viscosity range in the case of some synthetic oils.

1 ounce per gallon is actually 128:1.

100:1 ratio is 1 ounce per ~.78 gallons... about 9 ounces for every 7 gallons.

anyways, i'm going to stick with 128:1 until it gives me trouble, which i doubt it will.

fwiw i use castrol GTX 10w-30 all year and use the cheapest brand name tcw3 2-cycle oil i can find. that usually ends up being castrol super outboard, but i was just given a huge stash of quicksilver tcw3 for free.

Idemitsu rotary 2-stroke claims that it exceeds JASO FC requirements. Thats good enough if you plan on running it. But, wallyworld has several brands of TCW3 for <$10 per gallon.

Not that I agree with wikipedia, but it is a good starting point for research
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubricant (no mention of the EOP, PIO, GTL.... or other newer lubes)
And, some good info available here:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/
http://noria.com/resources.asp
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi (watch out for the spon$ers)

Well, it basically looks like you use whatever oil you want at your own disgression. Personally, I'm gonna give the Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W50 oil a try, along with their Mobil 1 Racing 2T 2-cycle oil a try and see how it goes. I know that Mobil 1 is a very good company, and they've proven it many times over to me. And Alexdimen, thanks for that correction. I plan on doing the 128:1, or 1 oz. per gallon mix. Lots of good information in this thread, and it has been fun reading it all. :)

Wow, that made my head hurt...
I'd figure it'll be interesting for chemical engineers? :)

My data point...
We ran different ratios on the race track with a 13B NA.
With strictly only Valvoline Multi-Use pre-mix, when we ran the ratios down to 50:1 and lower, the exhaust started to smoke significantly.
The "soot" as also very noticable on the spark plugs.
Running it above 70:1 cleared up the smoke and kept the plugs clean - all BUR9EQ's.
We run our race ratios right around 70:1 after that.


-Ted

Thanks for that information Ted. I might try the 70:1 ratio once I get the car back on the track. Normal driving I'll stick with the 128:1 though. Btw, what mix would the 70:1 give you? Something like 1.75 oz. per gallon?

You should learn to do your own math, but as long as I'm here...
1 gallon = 128 ounces
128 / 70 = 1.83 ounces = 1-13/16 ounces
1.75 ounces per gallon = 1:128/1.75 = 1:73. Probably close enough.
2 ounces per gallon = 2:128 = 1:64. Probably close enough.

Yeah, we were running slightly under 2 oz. per gallon.
We were eyeballing most if it, but we were adding the premix into 5 gallon gas containers.
It was a hair under 10 oz. per 5 gallon gas container.
Thanx for the math break-down ericgrau!


-Ted

Alright, so I've been looking for places where I can find my motor oil and pre-mix oil. I plan on using the Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W50 oil and Mobil 1 Racing 2T 2 cycle oil. Anyone know where I can buy these products? I looked around and couldn't find where I could order them online, or any store that carried them. Also, another quick question. Anyone know where I could purchase a magnetic oil drain plug? Also, do you guys flush your oil system with clean oil, then drain it and put your actual oil in? Thanks for the help!

www.rx7.com has a re-usable magnetic oil filter sleeve. Holds metal particles inside your oil filter. Pep Boys should have Mobil 1. Extended Performance only helps if you plan on changing your oil less often (which is a perfectly fine idea). It probably just has more acid-neutralizing stuff.

15W50 has a really wide temperature range. Are you planning trips from Death Valley to snowy mountains? It takes more viscosity additives to pull off that range, leaving less room for oil. The higher viscosity ("W50") also means more friction. Mineral 10w30 is good from well below zero to +80F. 20w50 is good from below freezing to as hot as you want. Synthetic 10w30 will have an even wider temperature range.

First number means cold temp viscosity. The lower the better it is for starting your car in cold weather. The second number means running viscosity, after you warm up your car. High viscosity means thick (like honey), low viscosity means thin (like water). Low viscosity has less friction and squeezes through tight spaces easier but high viscosity clings to surfaces better. Low viscosity after warm-up is best for performance. High viscosity after warm-up is best for worn-out engines because it leaks slower.

Extended oil changes are NOT a perfectly fine idea with ANY oil in a rotary without additional filtration. An EP oil doesn't do a thing for a rotary's fuel dilution. It doesn't do a thing for wear particles.

W50 is not a weight. The '50' is the weight range at 212*F. There are 6 hot weights that ALL motors fall into: 20, 30, 40, 40, 50, 60 defined by SAE. And, the 40 isn't a repeat. It is impossible for any oil to fall into multiple weight ranges.

The 'W' is a cold cranking/pumpability test. This is very important in a boinger. The larger surface area of bores, and the distance of the upper valvetrain from the pump, are issue we don't worry about. In a boinger, if the oil is chilled into 'snot', the multiple pistons won't move in their 'sticky' bores and the engine won't crank. If the oil is like jello, the engine will starve and wear out. There are 6 'W' tests defined by SAE: 0w, 5w, 10w, 20w, and 25w. Any oil that pass a lower cold test also by definition, meets all the higher cold specs. To prevent confusion, only one of the cold specs can be 'labelled'.
SAE allows an oil to be labelled with either: 1 cold #w, or 1 hot #, or 1 of each #w-#. This is why you don't see 0w5w10w30 oils anymore. The oil ignorant consumers were confused!

Since the 'ranges' are pretty broad, foreign SAE equivalents and independent blenders also came out with pseudo weights. You will see some labelled '70' for thicker 60wt oils and 35wt oils that are on the thick side of a 30wt without being a 40wt. And, there are some 7.5w(or 3w) oils that give better pumpability/cranking of the 10w(or 5w) but with an overdose of VII's used by 5w(or 0w). For example, if I mix a quart of 10w30 with a 10w40, I DO NOT GET A 10w35. Its either a 10w30 on the thick side or a 10w40 on the thinside, easily verified by oil analysis. But, for example, an independent can blend a 10w35 marketed as an oil that protects as well as a 40 with losing HP when compared to a 10w30, or as an oil that provides HP without losing protection when compared to a 10w40.

Gear oils are tested at different temps and have their own numbering designations and should never be used as comparisons with motor oils.

Synthetic oils typically use LESS viscosity index improvers for a given 'spread'.
I'd wager that a 15w50 synthetic has less VII's compared to a 20w50 mineral oil. And, that a 5w50 synthetic has similar VII's to a 20w50. HIgher quality basestocks(as you move up the group ladder), require less VII's for any given weight range. It is pretty well known that typical 5w20, 10w30, and 15w40 synthetics use little to no VII's.

That filter sleeve is expensive as shit, but it's pretty cool. There has to be a cheaper route to go than this though. I'm using bar magnets on mine now, so I can't really see how much more a 40 dollar sleeve is going to help.

From what you guys have posted here, going with my 15W50 would be good. The reason I want the higher viscosity oil is because it doesn't break down as fast as a lower viscosity will. The 20W50 Castrol that I was running always came out very clean and held oil pressure extremely well. Even after running it hard, oil pressure stayed up there and it didn't break down.

And yea, I'll be changing the oil every 3k miles like I always do. I know there's no reason to run it over that. :)

So, nobody else knows where I can buy those two oils I have listed?