Mazda Design breakthrough saves the rotary
 

Lazer-injection?? Sounds cool but would make for on expensive tune up.

sounds promising...

That is SO cool! Maybe I'll do a write-up for the new engine swap. haha ;-)

“Moving forward, we plan to put greater emphasis on the rotary’s strong points – low vibration, compact size and high power output. And in this way, we can improve fuel economy.”

Nice ^

Nah, The articles I've seen on this topic indicate its a laser ignition source with fiber optic cables that lead to the combustion chambers. You'd likely leave the laser part alone (akin to ignition coils) and replace the optic cables (like sparkplugs and spark plug cables)

Assuming they can fix the optics problems, you'd probably double the lifetime of the cables, ie they would last twice as long as spark plugs

I hope they really are going to continue with the rotary, but it sounds as if its a long way off still.

After reading this I looked more into the lazer, they are promising long life for the lazer and reasonably long life for the optical cables so your right shouldn't be too bad.

If "a long way off" means "never", then I agree.
Rotaries have inherent emissions, economy and manufacturing problems that make it tough- if not impossible- to justify future development.

So this interview with Mitsuo Hitomi gives you know hope? Even though he said him self they have found a way to better emmisions and fuel economy?

Sorry clokker, but I'm going to side with the engineer over you this time. But you are not wrong to speculate. After all, we have only had these problems to deal with since the rotary was first introduced.

My biggest concern for the new engine would be what they are going to do about the MOP... I personally am a believer of pre-mixing and I think the MOP was a bad idea since it injects the crankcase oil into the combustion chamber. I think if they could figure out a way that we could use a synthetic oil for the bearings and have a separate reserve for the injection oil then a MOP system could be retained in a positive new way. But then the issue then returns, who would buy the car knowing they have to fill two oils? I'm sure most of us would be perfectly fine with that, but rotary newcomers and the general public would be very turned off by this.

thats all i kept thinking about when i was reading the article.

that's old news. it was annouced months ago. I even have patents drawings of it somewhere in my comp.

and Mazda already said they will not restart Rotary project until they make enough money on their current SkyActiv platform, consider they lost 1.1 Billion last year.

things can change tho, right now Mazda's sales increased by a lot. their Mazda3 with SkyActiv-G is seeing record sales. and with their recently released CX-5 with Full SkyActiv installed, I expect they soon will have enough "funds" to restart the whole RE-work house.

If they're looking to improve the ignition, then I'm sure they'll find a better alternative to the metering oil system.

The same problems have plagued the rotary since its early development days, but they've suddenly just "figured everything out"? :scratch: I hope the rotary continues, but I'll believe it when I see it. I think half of us were ready to put a deposit down on a 16x crate engine back in '07, but look how that turned out.

Also, the general public doesn't like to do anything extra for their cars, like fill up extra oil reservoirs, pay attention to warning lights, look before changing lanes, etc... And then everyone will complain about the lack of torque, which Hitomi states isn't an area they're working on, and then go buy a v6 camaro.

Synthetic oil is NOT a problem for Rotary. problem is people baby their car way too much (general owners)

You can get carbon all over the place even if you use Mineral oil.

Not to mention most carbon u see actually came from the gasoline, not from the sump.

The MOP/OMP was invented because the general public doesn't even check their oil regularly, thus Mazda figured they wouldn't bother with two oil reservoirs or even two types of oil. I think its here to stay in its current form

Mazda is hurting because of two factors. First, the Yen in strong, so its not in their best interests to export things from Japan to other parts of the world. Unfortunately Mazda doesn't really sell well in Japan, but they do sell well in the US and ok in other markets.

Mazda is betting on Skyactiv to do two things. First, improve sales in Japan, and second, get other companies interested in leasing the technology which would be pure profit for Mazda.

A comment about the OMP system - new diesels require a liquid that is injected into the exhaust to reduce emissions. how hard is it to do that with oil? I realize its a critical function instead of exhaust additive...but it's not like it isnt something others are doing.

"Mercedes adblue - The AdBlue system houses the DOC and particulate filter in a single housing. In addition to the NAC catalyst, ammonia is supplied by injecting a fluid called AdBlue into the exhaust upstream of the SCR catalyst. The addition of AdBlue fluid enables the SCR catalyst to reduce NOx emissions to a level even lower than the NAC-SCR system. AdBlue is carried in an on-board tank which can be replenished when the car is serviced; a gallon of AdBlue fluid lasts approximately 2,400 miles."

design a 2 cycle container that is large enough to go 3-5k miles before fill up with LOTS of hard driving since that uses more oil then light loads.

I think with the reference to not focusing on low end torque, they are going to have electric assist. electrics always have max torque.

Why not? That's why they are called breakthrough's... If it involved changing the shape of the housings I'd say that would take a little time to get right...

This is absolutely true however. While I would love to see another rotary, the inherit perceived increase in maintenance by the general public will always be a turn off...

With new diesels its totally different, the bluetec, adblue or whatever systems HAVE to be refilled regularly. I believe its the Ford DPF system that will not run after the urea/horse piss has been depleted and the vehicle has ran without it for a set amount of time, mileage or key cycles. If that was integrated to the rotary engine with the seperate mop system people would be forced to maintain it. And oil isnt expensive like Bluetec fluid is..and its only horse piss in a bottle.

Sounds like a modification to consider when the next tightening of smog standards are instigated when ever that happens. That CARB trend seems to be a shadowed slow tightening the noose around the neck of keeping our rotary cars legally on the road. Smog test before last I passed with tons to spare, last time I has essentially the same readings and I b a r e l y passed.

I'm not saying there is no progress to be made, I'm just questioning the timing. After 50+ years of rotary development, I find it hard to believe a single breakthrough cures all the issues that make the rotary non-viable as mainstream product. I really want a car equipped with lasers, though. In the end, the engine is either going to be produced or it's not. Just have to wait and see.

I'm a Star Wars fan as well. :nod: But I digress.

Any R&D can be a long drawn out process. An idea comes up, and sometimes gets you to where you want to go, but most times doesn't. But over time, if a solution is out there R&D persistance will find it. I pray every day that that truth will also find a cure for cancer.

More likely its multiple breakthroughs, each one targeted at a specific problem

Why not? So are you telling me after hundreds if not thousands of years in medical development, we should be reaching the limit by now?

Better process, better material, new metallurgy, faster computers, etc etc can make something impossible even just couple years ago possible.

i heard the rumors about the new rotary a couple of months ago, and it sounds really good! 300-350hp, and they do have a car for it.

the metering pump will stay, people have enough trouble with keeping engine oil in their cars, adding another mystery container is just a non starter, and the 04-08 Rx8 notwithstanding the MOP system actually does work.

the break through is not one big thing, its a combination of smaller things. chamber sealing is one of the big ones, its a HUGE factor in low rpm power, fuel economy, AND emissions. also the new engine is probably going to have a direct injection system, which works on piston engines, so it should work on a rotary also. thirdly the ignition. i've heard that its 3 plug, like the 787, and the 3rd plug doesn't do much for power, but it does clean up the emissions.

they have also changed the geometry, and i'm not sure what effects that will have, but i think you can assume that they were looking for better mileage, lower emissions, and probably instead of the 8500rpm power peak of the Rx8, the new engine will be a little lower.

I kinda hope not actually. It works, but isn't very reliable yet. Atleast on piston engines, having to deal with all the heat and forces of the combustion chamber makes the system short lived and low performance over time.

Its a promising system, just needs a few more bugs worked out, but rotaries have enough problems as is, I'd rather some piston engine take the heat and find all the solutions first :)

Improvements are still constantly being made on piston engine design and chamber shapes after a century of constant development from lots of people. Why is it hard to believe that the only company that has been working on the rotary for 50 years hasn't found a design breakthrough now? The Renesis rotary is still fundamentally the same basic engine that went into the original Cosmo sport in the 60's. Sure it's bigger, has a few different materials, and fuel injection but the point is that the engine design hasn't fundamentally changed much. Mazda has apparently changed the shape of the engine a bit internally so that there is better sealing at low loads and rpm's which means better emissions and better mileage. Whether that chamber change is the 16X dimension or another one figured out since then is the real question.

I think we agre that there is progress that has/will be made in every field as a result of newer/better technology. And there are many piston ICE technologies that haven't been applied to rotary engines, yet. If there truly is a breakthrough that brings the rotary back into production, I'd absolutely buy one.

My beef is with the fact that the interview was (purposely?) vague and my takeaway was "we figured out something that makes everything better." But outside of Mazda's R&D department, it's all "stuff we heard." No offense J9FD3S. :peace:

To liken it to medicine: Say a drug company announced tomorrow that they now have a drug that cures all kinds of cancer, aids, diabetes, heart attacks, polio, crooked teeth, bad eyesight, and sandy vag syndrome. You can't have it yet and they won't tell you what it is. But it has something to do with medicine. Wouldn't you be a bit skeptical, especially if they announced a similar one 4 years ago and happens to be in financial troubles?

I have hope that I'll be able to afford one when they appear at the dealerships :)

It better be out when I'm looking for my next car, otherwise I might just go for a BRZ :)

I like watching the 2nd gen guys argue. :) You're ALL going to buy the new rotary when it comes out in ## years right?

NO. You're NOT.

Exactly, we're 'ALL' going to buy it when we're totally financially stable enough to. XD [So yeah, probably not while they're in production, ala RX-8] hehe.


rotarygod >> +1

True true.

We may not buy them... But we'll buy them wrecked, to swap the engines into our FC's. ;-)

I have a RX-8. bought it new in 2005. and I will buy the next rotary when it comes out

so what's your point ... :scratch:

It wont be the type of Rotary you are thinking of. The rotary as we know it is OVER. Cars these days do not have a personal feeling. And most park themselves. Like I cant freaking park a car

That won't matter, since the end of the universe is upon us-but you won't tell, will you!:lol:

I think the diehard hoper contingent focuses too much on the "supply" side and completely ignores the "demand".

It's all well and good for engineers to (potentially) resolve the rotary's issues and make it viable in the modern regulatory environment, but that's only the beginning.

Next, the support infrastructure- parts supply, dealer tech training, etc.- must be put in place.

Finally, you have to somehow convince the public to buy into your little experiment.

What car would this new rotary go into?
Mazda already has the Miata, so the cheap/cheerful sports car segment is covered and it would make no sense to compete against its own product.
A high end, halo sports car?
Is that market large enough to justify the expense?

Dream on.
How often have you had the opportunity to buy the engine from a wrecked Ferrari or Lotus?
High end cars get totalled daily but where is the supply of exotic parts at our end of the foodchain?

Even assuming magic happens and a new super rotary is available for tree fiddy (the upper limit for most FC owner purchases), imagine trying to integrate the complex engine management system (everything, up to and including the gauges, will be computer controlled) into the old chassis.
The emissions will be so tightly integrated with engine management that it will be impossible (and illegal in most places) to "desmog" the car...it wouldn't run.
That means an engine swap includes all the hardware that clutters the modern engine bay and makes the mechanic's life miserable.

All of which begs the question:
Assuming it is somehow possible to pull off such a swap, why the hell wouldn't you do it to a FD instead of a FC?

Mazda has succeeded TWICE with cars "nobody asked for". The Original RX-7, DUH, and the Miata.
I don't expect a new rotary car, but you never know... If anyone can pull off a car "nobody wants", it's Mazda.

Wrong on both counts.
The original RX-7 was simply moving into the niche created by the 240/260/280Z- and mimicked Nissan exactly as the 7 bloated into the 2nd gen.
The 3rd gen was a spectacular car that only managed to sell in the hundreds, hardly a spectacular sales success.
The RX-8 was so weird it hardly even counts.

The Miata reclaimed the market segment abandoned by the British.
Mazda bet that the death of the cheap convertible sports car was because of crap offerings, not a basic lack of desire. The Miata was all things that a MGB or a Fiat was- small, cheap and topless- and added "reliable", an element previously missing.
Couple the basic goodness of the product with a couple decades of easily available credit and you have the success of the Miata.

In other words, Mazda didn't create either the demand or the environment that made the (limited) success of the rotary possible, they provided a desirable product at a time when the demographic could could indulge itself.

Now let's look at how things stand today.
Clearly, there is a fairly large demand for high end supercars, everyone has 'em.
Ignore makers like McLaren and Ferrari, companies who only build exotics and look at "full service" manufacturers.
Companies can justify suspension/chassis/material exotica because it legitimately can trickle down to regular production units...all the cool bits on a Lexus LFA will morph and be diluted to appear on a Camry later on.

When it came to the engine however, did Toyota decide to use something that could never reasonably be expected to expand through the line...like a turbine, say?
Um, no.
Way too bloody expensive for even Toyotas deep pockets but you imagine that plucky Mazda can pull a Rudy here?

Imagine that the upper management suite gets an especially good delivery of weed and decides that yes, building an expensive sports car with an engine that their dealer network despises and the customer is afraid of (rightly so) is a brilliant idea.
Now imagine that the money to finance this chimera actually exists (hint: it doesn't!) and the dream made real sits on the showroom floor (of at least one dealer per metropolitan area, if you're lucky).

In today's recession, how many units are you moving a month?

^ do not agree. Will leave it at that. ;)

Perhaps I'm a bit confused... I thought we were talking about Mazda, not Ferrari and Lotus.


Mainly because I'd much rather have an FC than an FD. That may just be me, though... since everyone else here drives an FC because they can't afford an FD? I don't know. I cannot speak for everyone else.

I'll buy one.

Was there a break through that produced more torque, increased fuel efficiency, and made the rotary engine more robust? These engines look good in theory but come up short in the real world. No one wants to reinvent the wheel. The piston engine will always be superior. Mazda will never make another turbo rotary sports car.

Objection!! All of your other logic is sound, but the customer is NOT right to be afraid of the rotary.

Amen! I love my FCs, and fully admit that I have unusual taste. [My dream car is a Black on Black cloth interior S5 Turbo... Which aside from technically being an A-package and having leather, is sitting in my garage waiting for me to finish ;)]

Never say never... :)

after the people who remember the FD die, it'll be possible... but until then turbo rotary will not happen. especially in the US market. we complain too much. there is a long history of that too, this is why we got the GSL-SE as a non turbo 6 port, and Japan got the 12A turbo.

complaining americans........no turbos for you

I guess most of us here have been staying in the cheap car section for wayyyy too long.

Recession? Bad economy? Sure it is, no doubt about that. But there are people out there who has deep pocket and willing to spend their hard earn cash on the next cool and good looking halo car.

Fd failed because their brand wasnt up to porsches level with a porsche like price. If you are a buyer, would you get a porsche or mazda? Even if i tell u mazda performs better?

Nowdays things a abit different. Mazda shouldnt have any problem selling a 40k sports car IF it is as good as the fd minus the heat related issue.

Mazda plz dont make the next rotary a hybrid, the new nsx is cool but i think its a failed, to me it sound lik ehonda cant keep up with ots compeitiors and gotta rely on hybrid to reach their performance and emission goal

Right you are, no problem whatsoever selling the halo rotary sportscar for $40k.
Building such a car is the problem...it can't be done, Mazda would lose money on every unit at even twice that price.

Setting aside the inherent niche market stigma attached to the rotary, ask this:
What does the rotary bring to the platform that a piston engine can't?

lower CoG ? (I'm sure the next one will have even lower CoG than even the BRZ/FT-86)

remember when Rx-8 first came out u barely be able to find a car with lower CoG than Rx-8, largly due to Rotary Engine's compact size and weird shape.

Smooth like a V8 ? (this is well known fact)
It's actually lighter (assume they use all alumium this next engine) ?

no one ever expect rotary (or ANY halo car) to make money. it's just there to show the world "what we can do" ? A car company can spend millions in advertizement easily. that's why they rather spend some of those money to make a HALO car. so people will remember their brand when they see the car.

Supra = think of Toyota
GT-R = think of Nissan
R8 = Audi
etc etc.

just ask Nissan is their Gt-R making any money. answer is no. Ask the same question to Audi (VW) for their R8, they will tell u the same thing (or Toyota for their LFA, etc etc)