intercooler on na car?
 

would there be any benefits to adding an inline intercooler for the cold air intake, so the air going in is infast cool air not just air from outside?

No.


-Ted

i heard somewhere that optimum air temp for a motor was around 100 degrees, so in my opinion it wouldn't really have an affect. I think of it this way if it helped to have cold air every bodys cars would be making way more power in the winter than in the summer.

Whoever told you that was talking out of their ass. I say that for a host of reasons, but chiefly because of how vastly different all the different engines out there are managed with regard to fuel, spark, intake temperature, knock, humidity... my god the list goes on.

:facepalm:

so then was ted right? i mean its such a big deal to get a cold air box. i mean why not just route in an intercooler to lower the outside air further and make it better, and as regard to the winter and more power thing i feel a bonno effect from it anyways. lol

It would work if it could be designed with the following criteria:
- Air is refrigerated below the ambient temperature
- Any restriction caused by the additional cooler piping does not cause a pressure restriction that negates the value of the cooler air.
- The weight of the system does not negate the performance gain.
- The refrigeration method is such that it does not consume any engine power when the car is accelerating. For example, a pre-charged system such as liquid oxygen, or a system that charges during cruise.

It is possible, but not practical on a regular street car, and probably not legal for a race car.

Confirmed that the 100F myth is not true, and confirmed true that everybody's car does in fact make more power in the winter than in the summer. However, it is not way more power, as the performance advantages of colder air are hugely exaggerated by companies who are trying to sell you their overpriced intake products.

There are some conditions in which the air can be so cold that the fuel has problems vaporizing, but this is usually only a problem under sub-freezing conditions.

The colder, denser air of winter is indeed great for the intake, but at least some of the benefit is offset by the fact that the very same cold,dense air is harder for the body to punch through.
No free lunches at the "cold air buffet".

:Wconfused: would you pipe in a filter on the inlet of intercooler, would it draw in enough air to start the car

What about a small meth injection deal? That would not cause loss at cruising and could be set to come one at 100% load. Something I have always wanted to try was to make a t2 hood into some kind of intake like those seen on the Mach 1 mustangs.

First of all, Ted is almost always right. Second of all, how do you think an intercooler works? The biggest reason it does anything of value is because whatever the ambient temp is, the turbocharger is going to make it hotter when it goes through the compressor turbine, and raising the intake charge pressure heats it up even more, and the only, ONLY way to cool something is to rub something against it that's at a lower temperature so it will give its heat away. If you did this with a non-turbo motor you'd be taking in ambient temp air, possibly plus only a few degrees due to heat soak in the intake and the fact that you may be drawing air from the engine bay, and then dragging the intake charge through an intercooler to try and bring the temp down with ambient air (at best). You cannot possibly bring the temp lower than ambient with an air-air intercooler unless you're using a trick like evaporating something on the intercooler, and chilling a liquid around the intercooler will not last long unless you're constantly refrigerating the liquid, which is a terribly inefficient way.

If you want to make significantly more power with little to none for engine mods on a non-turbo car: nitrous. But don't just throw a bottle on there and throttle it, do some research. As for me, I'll keep my turbo (rather, I'm slowing gathering parts to have a BNR stage 4 S5 turbo built...).

I think he is refering to putting a standard air - air intercooler in place. In short the restriction of it would cancel out the cooling effect.

It probably would, but of course it would depend mostly on the resistance the intercooler created. I would not be surprised if it would practically suffocate the motor at high RPM WOT though.


I hope you were joking :lol: Surely you realize that's damn near negligible.

Yes, some type of cooling injection would work, but it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble for the small performance gain. Nitrous oxide would offer way more performance for the same amount of trouble.

Just for reference, each 10F that the intake air is cooled will only yield about a 1.2% hp increase. Therefore, if you have a typical 13B NA engine, reducing the intake air temperature by a whopping 50F would only add about 9 hp. Big whoop-de-doo.

The stock T2 hood scoop is actually in a bad spot because it is mounted in a low pressure area. Sure, you could turn it into an intake, but an inlet at the front of the car or at the base of the windshield could take advantage of the slightly higher air pressure when the car is at top speed. If the car is intended to operate under 80mph (street cars or drifting), then the ram air pressure isn't really a factor.

Even if an air-air intercooler were 100% efficient, it would still only cool the air down to the ambient temperature. In other words, even a fantasy air-air intercooler would have zero performance effect if the engine is already getting ambient air.

It does make a significant difference at high speed. Granted, that doesn't apply to most people on this forum, but in all fairness it is a correct statement. :D

Get a huge intercooler and chop up your bumper to fit it...run the air filter piping back into the engine bay. It will be so awesome.

What kind of high speed are you talking, mach 4? :rofl: For a land speed record trial it might matter a little. How little I'm not sure, but how many high speed road races and drags are held below freezing temps? That's rhetorical, I am actually interested in knowing how much difference it would make at 250mph wind speed between 100*F and 50*F, to throw some numbers out there.

just because its called a cold air intake does not mean it cools air
cold air intakes create a more direct rout to the throttle body and because of its smooth port like walls it "allowes the air to move easier".
i dont see how cold air in the engine would make a diffrence
turbos pump in regular air
and NOS just provides more oxigen
intercoolers help the turbo keep cool by cooling the hot air coming in
like a radiator cools hot water from the engine
if you want you can replace your filter with a block of dry ice if it does add horsepower let me know ive always wanted to try that

lol so im convinced im wanna throw nitrous on it.... thanks guys lol

:lol::lol::lol:

Oh dear. :facepalm:

Now we've created a monster that wants instant gratification.

...And then after he's out of this magical oxidizing gas he will go home crying to mommy because his bottle is empty... Or because his engine is blown.

Air density (in which temp plays a rather large factor) is not a phenomonon that only comes into play at "record setting" speeds.
Pilots commonly factor it in to determine fuel load/range and even hypermilers pay attention as it can adversely affect their high mileage endeavours.

As ambient air cools and becomes denser it provides more combustible oxygen (which the engine enjoys) but simultaneously, it makes it more difficult for the body to slip through the atmosphere.
This is not speculation or theory, it's simple fact.

Hypermilers- not known for high speed antics- have charted the effect of air temp v. mileage and it's not "negligible" nor does it require high speed to demonstrate.

My original point was not to dispute the possible advantages of a passive "cold air intake", merely to point out that it's not a "free" gain.

It is commonly observed on this forum whenever a engine bay pic is posted that shows a filter clamped on the end of the MAF, that "heatsoak" is hurting performance.
People routinely go to great effort to block off the filter from radiator waste air and route "cold" air to it from the brake duct (or wherever).
This is touted as a performance mod.

My ambient air intake placed the filter in front of the rad, completely free from heat contamination, sucking down the "coldest" available air possible.
Switching between that setup and the more common (and simpler) filter on MAF arrangement lead to no noticeable changes in power delivery and fuel mileage.

So, if one wants to argue that "cold air" has but a negligible effect on the car's aerodynamics, you'll have to start by proving that "cold" air actually increases the engine output as well.

(Again, this is all predicated on passive intakes...not turbo/supercharged and not artificially cooled intake tract, meth/water injection)

well would it hurt to add a switch for a slow nitrous leak into the intake(so no shot of nitrous just some slow injection) and i would just go buy another bottle i wouldnt cry i swear. and im not worried bout blown engine, since if it did blow i would rebuild with a new port job(so im awaiting lol) yea i may be power hungry but comon what na owner isnt, and id only be doing short runs with nitrous, so any opinions?

No nitrous...no no no.

Total waste. Not only will you probably toast your current motor (and you said you dont care) you'll probably toast the new one too.

I'd say if you want more power but do not want to crack the keg apart yet, invest your money into headers and full exhaust. That is the real HP ticket on an NA there, without cracking the keg open of course.

Learn about nitrous systems via a few Google searches. Look up "nitrous basics", "nitrous fogger", "direct port nitrous" and then continue researching based on stuff you turn up. Nitrous isn't the big black box that many people will have you believe. There are even links in the 2nd gen FAQ with information on installing and tuning a nitrous system.

To really bake your noodle, nitrous or other gas capable of super cooling (CO2, etc.) is sometimes used to spray down intake plumbing and intercoolers to lower intake temps past what would normally be possible with simple air cooling.

yea all i need for full exhuast is a set of headers, witch im shure will take out the precat i still have up there, also if i have stock ecu hwo do i tune it with the full exhuast and intake and varies other goodies? or does the stock ecu tuning do ok with all these mods?

Installing a NOS kit is a simple procedure to install the nitrous tank, a couple of injectors (also called nozzles) and a number of solenoids, routing a few meters of pipe (or pipes) from the tank and nitrous a fuel line to the solenoid coils and thesolenoid valves of the injectors, and then fit a few switches to arm the electrical circuit, which attracts the solenoid to the switch hvaing it activated either at full throttle or using a switch to activate it. im going to use a dry system as it will be efficient enough for what i would need. and if the correct jet is chosen it is safe and effective way of increasing horse power.

i found a decent dry nos kit thats adds 75 horses at wot when activated for around 600, so i think imma do it , after a little more undterstanding of the nitrous system and ill be just fine i believe if done correctly

typical short air intake that puts it near the stock location, cone filter, RB headers, 6 port sleeve inserts seem like a good idea too http://www.pineappleracing.com/6-por...sertspair.aspx

How are you planning on getting enough fuel into the engine to compensate for that dry shot? Wet kit is in your best interest if you want the engine to last through its first nitrous pull. 75 may be a bit aggressive for the first time.

I shall be waiting for your rebuild thread.

make sure to get a huge NOS sticker to add more HP! ;)

honestly, this is the most rediculous thread I've read in a while (and this is coming from someone just past the newb level). OP, you need to do a lot more research on things. you might as well get yourself a t2 block for 1k instead of nitrous. babies get bottles, real men get blown (forced induction). lol. turbo is just more worth while imo, you have the power all the time and don't have to keep buying your power in bottles. my 2 cents. why are you attempting an na build and not turbo?

This is going to end badly

o its built just wanna get some nitrous, haha its funny how this affects things... this thread mainly is mine in the first place as i dont care where it goes but ive been flopping ideas for a while now....... and i plan on doing as many mods as i can without removing the engine until it needs a rebuild. then it will be ported and get light wieght rotors, with lower compression, afterwards will then be turboed, unless yall think i can turbo the na high compression s4, which everone says is a bad idea too and i wouldnt even go high boost, kinda seems like everything is a bad idea anymore..

look up aaron cakes turbo 6-port project (project tina iirc). turbo 6-ports can be monsters but there are a lot of things that can go wrong if not done correctly or not considered. it would be easier for you to just get a t2 block and rebuild it before it goes in, sell (or part) the na and related stuff depending on condition. easiest/cheapest way to go turbo so its your call. you'll need another exhaust for turbo engine though. 2.5" I think? or the stock t2 one.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Fuck an NA Intercooler! :D This is a TRUE Cold Air Intake for an NA. Car is a half bridgeport - four port engine.

Window AC Unit running on a gasoline generator mounted in the hatch.

The chilled air is piped directly into the intake via PVC piping.

Attachment 716259

Attachment 716260

Attachment 716261

Attachment 716262

Oh yeah - we did get around to dyno-ing the setup. You actually LOSE 10 HP due to the restriction of the PVC. The laughing, pointing, giggling, and general ass-clown-ery is WAY worth the HP loss tho. :D

Attachment 716263

ha ha, that's epic!

OP, if you run a dry shot with no way to tune the car for the increased oxygen levels you'll blow your motor up on the first run. You are more than capable of turboing an na car.

Beating the hell out of the engine till it goes is not sound financial planning. When the engine goes in all likelihood you are going to damage internal parts and have to replace them.

Money you would spend on N/A mods instead put in the bank and save for a turbo swap.

ive read all of project tina stuff and understand the turbo systems completely just been told no way ill blow my engine and so forth so im hesitate, i mean i found a whole turbo kit just for a rx7 to convert from na, but idk lol... may just save up to buy a whole new turbo car and give this one to my kid when he old enough.

yea man, headers replace the reactive exhaust manifold and the no. 1 & 2 pre-converters, all that bullshit goes away and maybe there's a metal recycling center close to you that will pay you for those three pieces :)
check this thread... https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/has-anyone-ever-experienced-issues-intake-after-freeflow-exhaust-installed-927533/
im planning on getting corksport power series exhaust very soon. my stock exhaust is sooo shitty, this is cat back only. than i want to get headers and a race pipe, i already have intake. after these upgrades you wont necessarily need fuel tuning to run the car but leaning it out and having it tuned will definitely add power and actually enhance gas mileage. once i get the free flow exhaust i plan on getting a rtek 2.1 ecu, this isn't haltech but something much cheaper but works for an NA motor

LOL, that's awesome!

yea i have race piped already and intake and what not but with all these mods proper tuning is a plus? and what are benfits of the pinaple sleeves vs the stock ones. o yea i aleady forgot about the intercooler and nos lol.

Keep in mind that it is even easier to blow an engine with nitrous than turbocharging/supercharging. It is just the nature of the beast that it is fairly trivial to toss way to much oxidizer without enough fuel.

You would NEVER want to use a dry kit unless you have a full standalone that understands nitrous. For simple stock ECU applications and a 50-75 shot, you will want a WET kit and use about twice the fuel jet that you would for a piston engine to start.

I still don't recommend it, and I certainly don't recommend barging into a turbo NA setup as others would either. Unless you have a few thousand dollars to toss away, leave it as it for the time being.

just gonna clean up the intake area get a cold air box that vents out of the cabin for true cold air(i guess but id say it still warm) gonna get racing beat headers to complete my exhaust, switching from s4 upper intake mani to s5 upper intake mani, may consider pinaple sleeves, getting new rims and tires, repainting it since everyone hates the paint job, imma do something less all over, and going to fix my rear end clunking whatever it may be, starting with a enw driveshaft and going from there. going to reatin the na motor in this form till rebuild needed and port it then buy a new turbo 2 complete car. but im not saying i want start a new thread with some more riduculousness lol

jk of course....I thought I'd be a wise ass on this one lo!

This is incorrect, turbochargers are centrifugal compressors driven by a turbine that spins from hot expanding exhaust gases flowing through the blades, thus, alot of heat is conducted through the turbocharger assembly into the intake of air as the turbo compresses it. The purpose of an intercooler is not to help cool the turbo, that's the oil lubricating system's job, the purpose is to cool the compressed air to around ambient after the turbo heats it up several hundred degrees before it is mixed with fuel for combustion.

And Cold Air Intakes true purpose, does not create a more direct path for air flow, they often add restriction, but is relieved by a freer flowing filter. Short Ram Intakes have a more direct air path than factory, but take in air that is often near the exhaust manifold, and losing a bit of power from a less dense charge. Cold Air Intakes, try to separate the hot air (key word, is try, they don't usually) that's in the engine bay, to cooler air near the rad, or for some better ones, in the bumper. The simple fact is, they are more restrictive, why do you think so many NA builders on other cars go to ITB's (Individual Throttle Body's), because theirs little to no restriction before the throttle plates, which most of the time, makes more of a difference than having slightly cooler air. Intake manufacturers boast all the time that their intake is the best, and yada yada yada, most of the time, an Intake is an Intake. The reason why you see soo many Cold Air Intake Ads in magazines is because Cold Air Intakes, generally produce about 1 - 3 hp more than a Ram Intake, so everyone looks how to get the most power, and see that this intake gives me 9 hp, but, the cold air, gives me 11 hp, so they go for the cold air, even tho its only 2 extra hp, and generally costs $60 more, which you could easily have gotten by just cleaning, and gapping your sparkplugs correctly.

^ this guy knows whats up. aaron cake, as always, providing you with good advice and insight as well.

the ngk spark plugs most stores carry for FC's are pre gapped. is there any gain or need to check the gap and adjust them?

Not necessarily, but carbon build up on plugs can greatly reduce the plugs ability to complete a hot, intense spark, which our oil burning rotaries are famous for. But not everyone has NGK plugs, and even if you do, its not a bad practice to check the gaps while you have them out of the car, if their off, replace them.

If you do the s5 intake swap you will need the lower intake manifold also. Cant use just the top half. Keep on searching!