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good standalone?
ok..
i'm buying an s5 engine for my s4... but i'm getting no computer or wiring harness... i want go standalone... i figure i'll make this engine as badass as possible so what would a good standalone be? price really isn't that big of an issue |
Well, if price isn't an issue....Motec would be a good place to start: http://www.motec.com
But it seems to me that you're a beginner, so you probably want something with more support. Check out the Haltech in that case. I'm partial to the Microtech, but there is less support and it's slightly less versatile then the Haltech. If you are into DIY, the Megasquirt works quite well, but is far from plug and play (of course, none of the above are plug and play either). |
I'm not sure about haltech and motec, but the microtech is easy to install. and a problem with motec is no one around hear *florida* knows how to tune them. So that may be a good idea to look around where you live to see who tunes what.
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Haltech would be a good choice.
www.performanceconceptsonline.com has a big sale on Haltech's going on right now and you WON'T be able to beat his prices!! Hope that helps some. Zach |
I like my Microtech LT8s....very easy to install.
-John |
love my Microtech LT8s
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+1 for Haltech.
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Originally Posted by bunnybunny
i figure i'll make this engine as badass as possible
.....price really isn't that big of an issue
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
But it seems to me that you're a beginner, so you probably want something with more support. Check out the Haltech in that case.
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Originally Posted by BoostedRex
Haltech would be a good choice.
www.performanceconceptsonline.com has a big sale on Haltech's going on right now and you WON'T be able to beat his prices!! Hope that helps some. Zach Ebay: $1095 (shipped) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Halte...temZ8009214711 ;) |
I've been eying that ebay auction myself for the S5 TII swap.....I'm 95% sure I'm going to be buying that one.
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I'd rather buy from a seller that I trust instead of Ebay. It's worth the extra money to know that I won't get ripped off. Just my .02
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Got haltech on my duece, and my buddy has a wolf 3d.. I think wolf is a bit better and has more settings/options.. really like that handheld. But both are good.
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I had a quick question about tuning a standalone. Do you need to get some sort of wideband sensor to keep an eye on your fuel a/r's? Or is the only way to properly tune one is to go to a dyno?
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road tune with wide band and egt sensor should be fine.. but dyno will yelled you most power.
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how come i havent heard anything about the autronic yet? nobody willing to cross the bridge?
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Here's what you want to do: Go to your tuner (if you don't have one yet, get one first), and ask them what they're the most familiar with. Apparently cost isn't a concern, so find a reputable tuner, and let them work their magic on the system they're most comfortable with..
that said: +1 for DIY MegaSquirt! :) |
Originally Posted by cardzrule
One werd - Motec
Every1 sez Motec has teh best support yo. |
Originally Posted by Sylver_Spyder
how come i havent heard anything about the autronic yet? nobody willing to cross the bridge?
Zkeller put one on his third gen... that thing is friggin AWESOME... it blows Haltech's and Microtechs right out of the friggin water. SOOO many functions.. SOOO much easier to tune... the tuning software has realtime graphic display of engine parameters.. i used to stand there and :mspank: over that thing everytime i went in his garage! The only thing that kept me from upgrading my haltech to an autronic was the PRICE... YYYYYYEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOWWWWW He was also the ginuea pig for the Rotary Autotune function..... (the had autotune out for other cars, but it took a while for the rotary version)... There were some bugs with it, and i think the got it fixed... BUT... he got scared of himself running 20+ PSI of boost all the time and ripped the motor out of the car and did the LS-1 Swap.. SO... I have no idea what his final verdict on the Autotune function was! I do know that our GENERAL idea about the autotune was that it was REAL nice for setting cruising and light throttle settings. HOWEVER... it had do be in a certain "Box" (the box i'm talking about kinda like the numeric fuel maps for a haltech set in an excel spreadsheet, but much better)for a certain amount of time for the autotune function to work and when your hammer down and RPMS and Boost are going apeshit, theres not enough dwell time per box. |
Originally Posted by fc3sguy
I had a quick question about tuning a standalone. Do you need to get some sort of wideband sensor to keep an eye on your fuel a/r's? Or is the only way to properly tune one is to go to a dyno?
You need a wideband O2 sensor wether you tune on a dyno or on the street. |
Originally Posted by fc3sguy
I had a quick question about tuning a standalone. Do you need to get some sort of wideband sensor to keep an eye on your fuel a/r's? Or is the only way to properly tune one is to go to a dyno?
if you get a standalone, its almost a MUST that you also get a wideband, especially since you can get an LM-1 for less that 400 bucks. Unless you want to traielr the car to the tuner and spend 150+ bUcks and hour to have him totally tune the car on the dyno.. which would take a whole friggin day to tune EVERYthing.... My Method for boost fuel setting Innovate LM-1 Wideband.. Output cable of LM-1 goes to Haltech... Set haltech to Datalog... Other output of LM-1 goes to Innovate A/F gauge on a-pillar below boost gauge, LM-1 itself in middle of dash. Put car in third gear at about 3000 RPM Press "M" on Laptop to datalog to memory, and stomp on it!!! Watch A/F gauge to make sure I'm somewhere close to 12 (it shows leaner tha it is, so 12 is kosher... its an analog needle anyway..) when the shift light comes on, drop to 5th and hit the space bar.. Pull off at next exit and eyeball the datalog and take fuel out a little bit at a time.. Repeat!!! |
Motecs are fanatasic. Its what a BUNCH of guys in Northen Minnesota run and they abosolutely love it.
I recommend it as well. |
Originally Posted by YearsOfDecay
My Method for boost fuel setting Innovate LM-1 Wideband.. Output cable of LM-1 goes to Haltech... Set haltech to Datalog... Other output of LM-1 goes to Innovate A/F gauge on a-pillar below boost gauge, LM-1 itself in middle of dash. Put car in third gear at about 3000 RPM Press "M" on Laptop to datalog to memory, and stomp on it!!! Watch A/F gauge to make sure I'm somewhere close to 12 (it shows leaner tha it is, so 12 is kosher... its an analog needle anyway..) when the shift light comes on, drop to 5th and hit the space bar.. Pull off at next exit and eyeball the datalog and take fuel out a little bit at a time.. Repeat!!! lol!! Thats the exact method I use.. How funny... |
I vote for wolf3d V4 with a handheld controler, and an innovate LM-1 (lm-1 groupbuy neone?)
Check the wolf3d section, or pm me with any wolf specific questions, ill answer or pass them along to someone who can -Jacob |
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
You can probably count on one hand the number of people here running a Motec. :)
Originally Posted by YearsOfDecay
the tuning software has realtime graphic display of engine parameters
Originally Posted by J-Rat
You need a wideband O2 sensor wether you tune on a dyno or on the street.
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haha!!!!
me? rich? i'm almost flat broke... except for about 500-600 but i'm working my little ass off to get everything for my 7 and plus, i don't an s5 ecu or anything, and i want to squeeze as much out of this thing as i can no matter if i have to spend every penny i earn on it |
Why you say price really isn't that big of an issue then? Dang ur almost as broke as me. Id havta throw a lot of newspapers to afford an ems lol.
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haha
its not like i'm trying to get one this week end or anything.... my s4 to s5 conversion is going to be a rather slow process so i'm in no rush.. i just need to know some good choices so that i can be sure i'm getting what i want.. catch my drift? =P |
Originally Posted by cardzrule
If thats true then howd peeps tune engines back when there werent any such thing as wideband O2 sensors? I know theres been car engines a long time befor wideband O2 sensors invented.
I would assume that you would tune off of knock. Piston motors are capable of that. |
well most cars didn't have EFI back then
hense forth they were carbed |
I'd say bang for the buck, Haltech.
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Originally Posted by bunnybunny
well most cars didn't have EFI back then
hense forth they were carbed |
Originally Posted by bunnybunny
well most cars didn't have EFI back then
hense forth they were carbed
Originally Posted by J-Rat
I would assume that you would tune off of knock. Piston motors are capable of that.
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Originally Posted by cardzrule
so whats teh dif between tuning a carb or efi? Rich is still rich and lean is still lean and knock is still knock.
79 rx7 aint got no wideband. Maybe teh 12a is just better than teh 13b? |
Originally Posted by bunnybunny
well most cars didn't have EFI back then
hense forth they were carbed EFI really came into use in the early to mid '80s for imports, and domestics a little later. Mazda was at the forefront as always. :) Plenty of ways to tune without a wideband. Smell, exhaust gas analysis, feel, etc. Why would you say price is no object if you don't have any money? You've just wasted two pages in a thread. If you need cheap yet still versatile, you cannot beat the Megasquirt as long as you are willing to do some DIY. |
Originally Posted by J-Rat
And your point is?
V V
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
Plenty of ways to tune without a wideband. Smell, exhaust gas analysis, feel, etc.
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That made absolutely no sense..
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correction... 3 pages not 2
and like i said.. i'm not looking for something fast... i would just like to know what some good options for standalones are... and i didn't twist anyones arms to post.. you did that on your own free will |
Originally Posted by J-Rat
That made absolutely no sense..
Means that its wrong what you said about needing a wideband to tune efi wether on teh dyno or street. |
Originally Posted by cardzrule
Plenty of ways to tune without a wideband. Smell, exhaust gas analysis, feel, etc.
Means that its wrong what you said about needing a wideband to tune efi wether on teh dyno or street. Lol.. Ive read some of your other posts, you are definately a class act. |
Originally Posted by bunnybunny
and like i said.. i'm not looking for something fast...
Originally Posted by J-Rat
LOL!!! Well you guys go RIGHT ON AHEAD and tune without the benefit of a wideband. I am well aware there are other ways to tune, but why would you when the 02 sensor is the best way?
Lol.. Ive read some of your other posts, you are definately a class act. |
haha man i work in a factory makin 8 an hour working 7 days a week.. 40 hours a week but lots of overtime
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Originally Posted by cardzrule
thx. RX7s been running mad tite for over 20 years wit no wideband. Im glad I dont gotta buy no xpensive wideband but itd be nice if youd said straight up that a wideband aint needed. Also glad you like readin my posts.
Sorry, I would never be as reckless as to recommend tuning a boosted car without a wideband. You want to do it, have fun buying motors. If you are tuning an N/A without a wideband, have a good time. So if you want me to say that a wideband isnt needed, you will be waiting a long time. |
Originally Posted by J-Rat
So if you want me to say that a wideband isnt needed, you will be waiting a long time.
neway, so how you splane how mazda made teh 2gen and 3gen turbo cars run wit no wideband? |
Originally Posted by cardzrule
Dood you said that in ur last post lol.
neway, so how you splane how mazda made teh 2gen and 3gen turbo cars run wit no wideband? Well, lets see here.... Mazda did all the tuning, using the wideband (and I would imagine other things like Ve, etc..), during the testing phases. At this point they wrote a fuel map that was used on every car. This is one of the main reasons that emissions are such an issue. Every motor is different, but if you run the same map and make it rich, you dont have to tune EVERY car that comes out of the factory. That would be cost prohibitive. Ever stop to ponder why everyone that has stuck a wideband on thier stock car found out it was rich? Its not a hard concept to follow really. My car doesnt even have a wideband installed in it, because once the car is tuned, the wideband is no longer needed. I stated that TUNING witout a wideband is reckless, but you dont need one to drive with once the tuning is set. So, there it is, I have "splaned" how mazda ran "TEH" car "wit" no wideband. |
Originally Posted by cardzrule
neway, so how you splane how mazda made teh 2gen and 3gen turbo cars run wit no wideband?
You don't need a wideband in your car 24/7 to make it run. They're for tuning only, you don't seem to be grasping that. As for Mazda, they probably tuned a bunch of motors, found a nice safe map and then copied and pasted that map into every ecu for that engine. They're all close to identical so there is no need to tune every single one. I too have read a few of your posts and I gotta say the "teh" and using z's everywhere is annoying the shit out of me! -John edit: Damn I type slow. Beaten by the Rat. |
Originally Posted by J-Rat
Well, lets see here.... Mazda did all the tuning, using the wideband (and I would imagine other things like Ve, etc..), during the testing phases.
The third and most recent zirconia dioxide oxygen sensor is the ‘wide band’ ‘lean burn’ type (or Air Fuel Sensor) and available at NTK only in five-wire. The heater resistance ranges from 12 to 15 ohms. The output signal is considered discrete voltage levels between 0 and 5 volts to offer exact air/fuel mixtures. Bosch announced the development of this ‘wide-band’ heated oxygen sensor in November 2001. |
Originally Posted by cardzrule
So splane how mazda did all teh tuning during teh testing phases for teh 1988-1994 TURBO rx7s if teh wideband wasnt even invented till 2001. Maybe mazda gotz a time machine so they can tune their carz in teh future and then make them back in teh past?
http://home.att.net/~ngksparkplugs/w...or_History.doc Actually, the wideband was introduced a few years before that, but I will leave it up to you to figure out when that was since you are so smart. |
Originally Posted by J-Rat
Actually, the wideband was introduced a few years before that, but I will leave it up to you to figure out when that was since you are so smart.
Originally Posted by November 2001 Bosch Reporter
The newest O2 sensor technology from Bosch builds upon the planar design and adds the ability to actually measure the air/fuel ratio directly for the first time. Instead of switching back and forth like all previous sensor designs, the new wide-band O2 sensor produces a signal that is directly proportional to the air/fuel ratio. The wide-band sensor uses a "dual sensing element" that combines the Nernst effect cell in the planar design with an additional "oxygen pump" layer and "diffusion gap" on the same strip of ceramic. The result is a sensor element that can precisely measure air/fuel ratios from very rich (10:1) to extremely lean (straight air). This allows the engine computer to use an entirely different operating strategy to control the air/fuel ratio. Instead of switching the air/fuel ratio back and forth from rich to lean to create an average balanced mixture, it can simply add or subtract fuel as needed to maintain a steady ratio of 14.7:1. Like a zirconia thimble or planar-type sensor, the wide-band sensor produces a low-voltage signal when the air/fuel ratio goes lean, and a high-voltage signal when the mixture is rich. But instead of switching abruptly, it produces a gradual change in the voltage that increases or decreases in proportion to the relative richness or leanness of the air/fuel ratio. So, at a perfectly balanced air/fuel ratio or 14.7:1, a wide-band O2 sensor will produce a steady 450 mv. If the mixture goes a little richer or a little leaner, the sensor's output voltage will only change a small amount instead of rising or dropping dramatically. Another difference in the wide-band O2 sensor is the heater circuit. Like a planar sensor, it is printed on the ceramic strip. But the heater circuit is pulse-width modulated to maintain a consistent operating temperature of 1292 to 1472 degrees F. the sensor takes about 20 seconds to reach operating temperature. planar narrowband HEGO = 1997 3gen rx7 twinturbo = 1993 2gen rx7 turboII = 1987 Aint no way mazda tuned any turbo rx7 wit a wideband. Sorry dood but ur wrong. No need to be a hater just coz I can Serch mad quick yo. Thanx to Aaron Cake for helping out teh noob. |
You're limiting your search to Bosch brand wideband sensors. They're a relative newcomer to the scene. Hitachi & NGK (NTK) had widebands in 1986-1987 and the auto manufacturers started utilizing them shortly thereafter. By 1991 Horiba had a wideband available for public purchase. Any old Joe with enough cash could buy one.
I think Ari Yallon still has one of the early Horibas on his dash. It's the size of a house. http://www.horibalab.com/ |
Originally Posted by Trevor
You're limiting your search to Bosch brand wideband sensors. They're a relative newcomer to the scene. Hitachi & NGK (NTK) had widebands in 1986-1987 and the auto manufacturers started utilizing them shortly thereafter. By 1991 Horiba had a wideband available for public purchase. Any old Joe with enough cash could buy one.
I think Ari Yallon still has one of the early Horibas on his dash. It's the size of a house. http://www.horibalab.com/
Originally Posted by NTK History
Oxygen sensors have been given various names over the years. Exhaust gas oxygen sensor (EGO); O2 (oxygen) Sensor; Lambda Sensor; Titania Oxygen Sensor; Zirconia Oxygen Sensor; Narrow-Band Oxygen Sensor; Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor (HEGO) (heated planar-type introduced by Bosch in 1997); Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor (UEGO) and Air/fuel Ratio or Wide-Band Oxygen Sensor (introduced by Bosch November 2001 and now available from NTK) are the more common names in the automotive industry.
If you woudda read teh NTK link I posted youd see that I didnt limit my search to bosch. Neway bosch made teh first UEGO wideband sensor in 2001 dood, and even NTK sez so. If you gotta link showing otherwise then post it. |
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