FMIC Power Gains
 

I'm eventually going to upgrade my turbo but in the interim, I was wondering what the power gains would be if I went to a FMIC. What would I gain besides a detonation prevention? What would the power gains be if a FMIC was one's first mod on a stock TII?


Thanks all,
B:D

it's a lot more cost effective to upgrade the exhaust. An FMIC on stock boost wouldn't do much.

Understood. I'm just curious as to what the gains are of a FMIC alone and on my modded S5 TII.

Thanks all,
B

FMIC will not give hardly any gains, if at all...The stock IC should be efficient for what you have

the guy I bought my tII from just took the top mounted intercooler and made some longer piping for it and moved it to the front. something you might want to try

do yo have a pic of it hondahater?

you won't see any power gains. infact, you'll probably lose a bit of low end, but the high end will be nicer. Yes, you'll also have less detonation worries.

You will gain some power but loose some. DOnt be trying to rig up your stock fmic in the front, what the hell is the purpose of that, you have the same intercooler, just at a different place with alot of time putting it there and no real power gains, We took a raytec temp guage and made a run down the interstate, and pulled over and shot it. It was pretty low, i dont remember exactly but pretty low, Then we let it sit there and heat soak, it went way up, then one more hard run down the road and temped it, and it was back down. so Its very effective there, but not very good for more than 10psi and deff not at more than 12 it will just stay hot and isnt worth a shit. ONce you start to modify your car you need a fmic then you can rase boost, and or it will automaticly raise itself, The temping we did was on a stock TII. and then the bottom a pretty modified TII with an s5 turbo on a s4 motor with full exhaust and intake and some other thingys. So once you start to modify your car, like you have GET a good FMIC,

-Chris

NOt to mention the chicks dig Big FRONT MOUNTS


-Chris

Well being as I have put a front mount on about 3 cars I have personally owned now, I can give you a real answer to your question. The last car I put a FMIC is my 1989 Turbo 2, stock turbo at 8psi with no boost controller. The car also has a full exhaust, and Microtech EMS, 4x720cc injectors, and a fuel pump. The car gained power EVERYWHERE with the intercooler. The turbo spools faster, definatly has a more torquey feeling and has more top end pull too. Keep in mind that this is only at stock boost, the results will be better the more boost you run ect.

It did not hurt my spool time at all, but rather helped it, Dale Clark and many others have noticed this also when going to a descent core from the stock intercooler.

I wouldn't recommned you get a FMIC, before exhaust, and other basic mods and some fuel mods, but I would suggest it earlier in the "stages" than most people do it.

Daniel

Daniel, Im trying to figure out what FMIC to get. With your experience got any recomendations?

Don

I would say that the new Greddy favors stock turbos very well, however the old style has been proven to well over 400 RWHP.

Big cores are not always cool, as they may give off large pressure drops.

I know that I am fixin to find out the answer. The core I got is monstrous.

Jarrett

The Spearco bar and plate cores have worked very well for me. I have used the 2-221 and the indy race core on my DSM. (www.indyracecores.com). These are basically the same intercoolers as Buschur Racing uses.

The Greddy cores are also very good. The 3row car has made ALOT of HP on the Supra's. I have the newer 2row core on my RX7 and love it. I havent turned the boost up yet, but will soon. Also I like the fact that the core uses a reducer to go with the 2 1/4" pipe that is supplied for the cold side, so you can replace it with a real 2.5" pipe later.


Daniel

Whats up daniel!!!

Yea the basic lowest price greddy fmic will suit you well. And all this kid lacks is a cat back, he already has the most important exhaust parts so... its about time for a fmic for him.

J-rat, i hope your runnin some killer boost with a big freakin turbo, or your gonna loose some major power, the core on that thing is HUGE, I wish i could have bought it but Alf had already sold it:( And damnit i wanted his tranny to. :D But i didnt have the 5k to throw at it.

-Chris

You're half right. There will be minimal changes to power from frount-mounting the stock intercooler once you're up to speed. There will be some gains because of the better airflow through the core, but it won't be much.

However you proved yourself how quickly the core gets heat-soaked, and that kills power. Sit at traffic lights (or in the dragstrip staging lanes) for a few minutes with the engine running and then try to accelerate away hard. You'll be way down on power compared to the same core mounted up front and not heat-soaked.

If you're going to the trouble of front-mounting the intercooler it makes sense to upgrade it too, but there're still gains to be made from doing it. Then the pipes will be ready and waiting for a bigger core.

Thats the problem, I dont know if my turbo can handle that core. And I dont think I even WANT to put that big of a turbo on it. I might sell it for the V-spec core.

Jarrett

haha oh yea???? hhmmmm.....

-Chris

However you proved yourself how quickly the core gets heat-soaked, and that kills power. Sit at traffic lights (or in the dragstrip staging lanes) for a few minutes with the engine running and then try to accelerate away hard. You'll be way down on power compared to the same core mounted up front and not heat-soaked.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Yea, but after a hard 1bar run up to 120 then pulled over and checked it, it was at normal temp and not so heat soaked. Im sure (know) that sitting there it gets heat soaked but as soon as you start going it cools back down,

Once the car is modified to the point of adding extra fuel its about time for a front mount,

-Chris

At 120mph there's alot of air being pushed through the IC. Most of that heat removal would have taken place towards the end of the run, not at the beginning when the core was hot and reducing power.

The only way to really tell is to measure intake temps directly. That project is underway... ;)

I don't have pics but will take some I have a pretty shity camera but will try my hardest. I have hks exhaust, 720 secondaries, fuel pump, safc along with bov and front mounted intercooler. I'm about to add electric fan and a 6a. If this car had wings it would f****ing Fly! Any ways thats my 2 cents.

Thank you again all for your replies--

So, on a stock TII a FMIC will not cool the charge any more than the stock TMIC? And the length of piping would actually decrease power due to pressure drop?

Now, with my particular set-up (see sig) I would benefit with a FMIC because of my higher boost/heated charge on the stock turbo? If the stock TMIC is already at it's limit in my car, I might actually see a 30+ HP gain with a FMIC?

I didn't pull the 30+ HP figure out of the air, I seem to remember reading an upgrade path for the the TII on the web and it mentioned that a FMIC "alone" was worth 30hp.

B

When using the stock turbo the FMIC will hurt you. You will suffer from increase turbolag and you will see lower PSI figures. FMICs can be an advantage if drag can be compensated with PSI and fuel upgrades. The reduction of induction tempatures and power of an upgrade turbo will provide safer boost levels. There are things you have to take in consideration. Rotation mass of the driveline (flywheel), the effectiveness of the turbine, and proper tuning. All these can increase the speed of the turbine and pump in more atmospheric air into the inlet.

The greatest advantage of an intercooler is to reduce detonation and allows for safe and higher boost levels.

Think about it. The Aquamist systems doesn't create more horsepower. It just creates a safer enviroment for higer boost.


Intercoolers
filters
exhaust systems


do not just magicly create horsepower. They either lean the fuel or allows a more free flowing system.

Cooler intake temps are going to yield more power as long as the pressure drop is detrimental, no?

The Aquamist looks like a real solution to detonation. Perhaps an Aquamist + stock TMIC + bigger hybrid turbo = safe?

No. Any equation with the stock TMIC does not = safe. Especially with a hybrid turbo.

Triangle Power is at this stage with his S5. We have upgraded the pump, the injectors, and did the fuel pump rewire. The engine is stock with a BNR Hybrid Stage 1 and Stock TMIC. The Exhuast is a DP, Silencer, Apexi N1 Duals.

With this setup, we hit 260RWHP with A/F's in the low 11's.

Currently the car is detonating under full throttle conditions above 4000 RPM. (Boost is 10-11PSI) The problem is not fuel and it's not ignition. The problem is the high intake temps.

Guys,

I'm no expert but I can tell you my Greddy VSPL FMIC on stock turbo, ported WG, Ported motor running anything from 8 to 12psi it has no noticable turbo lag and the car holds boost and produces boost when it did not with the stock top mount.

For example on the track I could not build or hold boost. Now I can.

Another things is that when its slightly cooler out holy shit that things pulls more boost and overally it has a noticable power increase.

I myself think this is the mod to get. When I install my To4B I will just custom the tubing since it is meant for a stock turbo.

I do not regret this purchase and based on my experience would recommend it.

Ask anyone who has been in my car this thing has no boost lag. Yes the FMIC looks huge and can do with better air inlet. I have a cooling panel made up for it and intend to purchase a reverse scoop to further the cooling abilities of the FMIC and the Fluidyne rad which I had to install since yes the FMIC robs the rad from enough air. I think anyone running extra boost needs an upgrade rad anyhow. ALso looking at the mikel scope if he fills in the center gap to push more air into the opening.


Well excuse the spelling and fragmented sentence structure but I gather you get the point:)

Ian

Totally and completely wrong, I and many others that acctually have these things, noticed the exact opposite.

Daniel

It sure logic that the lenght it takes for atomspheric air to be sucked from the compressor to reach the FMIC and to the throttle body is longer than the the stock TMIC.
yes no

I have not noticed any lag!!!!!!

If your still using the stock HT-18 turbo don't bother with a FMIC...If you plan on getting a bigger turbo ( t04E-T78, etc.) you HAVE to get a FMIC.... The stock turbo's efficency pukes out at 12psi and the stock TMIC is still okay for that boost level ( well kinda). Its give and take with a FMIC and a stock turbo and will see alot of lag w/ lower intake temps w/ FMIC, however you can turn up the boost to compensate a bit, and then up go your temps from a over spun turbo...I've been down this path before. Once I got the T60-1 turbo the real HP was realised, now I can run 15-22psi with minimal lag because of the larger turbo....Now 22psi is pushing it for a T60-1, but I can dial in ignition timing (via stand alone ECU) to get the full effect from the turbo's 1.00 A/R....

ya know, buy Corky Bells "Maximum Boost" book...It breaks down most applications and will help you better understand what to expect....

Brad

:werd:

You can believe what you like, I really don't care. I know what I have done.


Daniel

No, read what I wrote above. There will be a lot more airflow through the core in the front-mount location, meaning lower intake temps (and thus more power), plus temps will be a lot more consistant due to the lack of heat-soak.
Only if the pipes are too small. The smaller the pipe, the bigger the restriction and pressure drop; but the bigger the pipe, the longer they take to fill, reducing response.

Only if you use a core that's far too big (lag) or restrictive (pressure drop). People have been successfully putting FMIC's onto stock-turbo FC's (and other cars) for years. The only time people lose power is if the pipes are too small.
Compensate for drag? If you have to add boost to compensate for a FMIC, you've stuffed up. And FMIC's don't alter mixtures. The rest of what you said really didn't make much sense or have much relevance...
You're actually correct, but I don't think you know why. Anything that reduces air intake temps will increase power (increased air density, basic physics), but in the case of water injection, the water physically takes the place of some of the oxygen-bearing air that would normally be used in combustion. The increased air density and reduced oxygen content almost exactly cancel each other out, which is why water injection has little effect on power. It's only there to stop detonation.
Um, actually they do. REducing intake temps increases air density and thus power. Reducing intake and exhaust restriction reduces the amount of work the engine has to do to suck air in and push exhaust gases out (called pumping losses). That work goes to the crank instead, and an increase in power can clearly be seen on a dyno. Just like magic...
Yes, but you don't understand the sort of airflows we're talking about here. An engine pumps a lot of air even at low revs, and will fill the additional volume of a bigger IC and longer pipes very quickly. There's not much point in you arguing this, since people who have actually done it have already said you're incorrect.

While the stock IC does flow very well, I wouldn't consider 12psi okay. I highly doubt there's enough airflow available through the hood scoop to deal with the huge increase in intake temps compared to the stock boost the IC and scoop were designed for.

The stock IC's flow is not it's downside, it's the terrible location it's in. TMIC's will always suffer from heat-soak and inconsistant intake temps as I've already said a couple of times. Look around at modern turbo cars and you'll see practically no manufacturers still top-mounting IC's. Only Subaru has persisted, and guess what WRX owners regularly complain about? ;)

There we go. I couldn't understand how a cooler charge wouldn't generate more power. I guess what I've been trying to get to is: On a stock car, would a FMIC be good for ~30hp? On my mildly modified vehicle would it be good for about the same? I'm starting to believe that the FMIC should be my next step before the big leap into hybrid turbo land.

I quote the 30hp figure from memory as I believe that it was the number listed in ReTED's upgrade path. I'm not sure if it can be dyno-proven if the FMIC requires more airflow?


Thanks again all,
Brian

I love how in this thread, people argue against something they don't even have on their car.

Keep your 'insightful theoretical knowledge' (ie. speculation), out of this, when people that are running FMIC's on stock turbos come to this thread and are telling you, that they work great and don't lag.

Book-learning will only take you so far.

Even though IAN's post was completely ignored, I will vouch for his car, as I have driven it. The boost comes on instantly.

And :werd: to NZConvertibles post.

Ian--what are your other mods and have you dynoed the car?

Thanks!
Brian

Car was not dynoed but repeated G-tech pro yeild about 240 rwhp. This was untill I adjusted the Apexi bov since I had problems developing boost and also my duty cycles were wrong on the AVCR.

The only mods on my car is exhuast, AVCR, 3rdgen fuel pump light weight fhlywheel remapped ecu, ported motor, 93 rotors, 90 sideplates, cone filter.

Basically all other mods are just sitting here untill I polish all the UIM, LIM waterpump neck etc etc.

Maybe all of those poor poor SOBs dealing with the horrors of the front mount intercoolers and their stock turbos should go with one half the size, half the density, and slap it above their engine to gain the great response of the the oven-pipe TMIC setup. :rlaugh:

Come on people. there is a reason why you don't see many cars with that setup. Even cars that did come with it have steered away from it. It is just a wrong setup. Why would anyone want their intercooler sitting above a giant iron and aluminum heat generator? Does anyone here think that at high speed that air even wants to go into your engine bay? :confused:

When using the stock turbine, it's not necessary to install a FMIC. The TMIC does fine on its own in combination with the stock turbine. I don't know how you guys do it in NZ, but too many people in the states put out on FMIC just because it looks cool. rxse7en has basic modification on his car and an FMIC I think is pointless. The stock TMIC is design and engineered pretty well and at 9-12 peak psi I would save my 600-1000 plus labor to install a FMIC with the stock turbine.

??? Are you saying with all the tubing, bends, and Surface area of the intercooler there is no more restriction??

All of the above compensates for lag or increases spool up...it makes complete relevative sense.

I am glad you used the word "think" in your sentence...because you are absolute wrong about that....On our aircrafts they call them ADI or Antideeonation injecton and ADI has been used for years.




Your reading in to deep. Proper tuning will get you horse power yes....

Decrease Intake temps increase density. You have more compressed in the chamber. Duh. What about fuel. Air is just the support for combustion. I can glup in all the air into an engine as much as I want. Fuel is the key! More fuel equals more heat...not air...air does not create heat...it only supports and transfer heat. Intercooler do not magically give you more fuel, filters don't magically give you more fuel, and Nawsssssss doesn't give you more fuel.



Thank you.......and increase the pipe length from the compressor to the intake manifold and adding bends and a FMIC......increase restriction;)

Get two garden hoses......one 2 ft. and one 6 ft.

Run the 2 feet so its straight and time how long it takes water to spit out.

Run the 6ft, but allow it to reach the length of 2 feet. Meaning you have to bend or coil the garden hose. Time how long it takes water to spit out.

If you get the same time (no lag)...we are living in the 5th demension because the water magically teleport 4 feet to spit out the same time as the 2ft garden hose.

(Now please appky that to your induction system.)

To compensate for the lag of the 6ft garden hose...either the valve has to be more responsive... (upgrade wastegate), the pressure has to be bumped....(upgrade turbo or adjusting the wastegate)


It all depends on your setup......Its more effective to use the stock TMIC in combination with the stock turbo.
Spend your money and gain the power somewhere else.
No need to get an FMIC unless you are going to upgrade the turbo and injectors.

I really appericate if you would be more mature and not assume from what I know and don't know. Very kinderschool. This is why there is NOPI, NHRA, Nascar and rally racing. every car, every set up is different and every one has there own ideas.

So basically, you are just going to ignore what the people running the FMIC/HT-18 setup are telling you, in order to continue your rhetoric?

You can keep with the techno-speak all you want. The whole LAG issue sims to be your primary argument. But, whatever amount of quantifiable lag there may be compared to the TMIC setup, you won't feel it in the car.

When I get into Ian's car, and say "Holy shit, this thing spools quick" thats good enough for me :)

So are statements like:

You can seem to get past this whole airflow thing. Like I said above, it's not the stock IC's flow that's the issue, it's the location it's in. It's ability to provide consistant intake temps is severely compromised because of (a) the size of the hood scoop and (b) the massive heat radiating upwards from the engine. This is not rocket science! A front-mounted intercooler is able to do a much better job of cooling the intake air, and if you're going to move the IC to the front then upgrading it makes sense. That doesn't mean slapping the biggest IC you can find in there, it means using one that suits your application.
Ha ha, don't worry, they do that here too. The Aussies are even worse...
Of course not, but correctly sizing the piping and core keeps this to a minimum. There's no such thing as a mod with no compromises, but in this case if it's done properly then the downsides should be negligible. Cooler intake air impreoves throttle response, and will negate the extra lag from the longer pipes and bigger core if you've done it properly. Just like anything else, you can do it right or you can do it wrong.
My apologies for any incorrect assumptions. So did you know the actual reason why water injection doesn't increase power? Because it works in a completely different way to intercoolers, which is what we were talking about.
No, I'm not reading anything too deep. You said intercoolers, intakes and exhausts "do not just magically create horsepower", but in fact they do. Power being used elsewhere in the engine is freed up to be sent to the wheels. Are you saying this doesn't happen?
You're demonstrating your lack of understanding of EFI. If you lower the temperature of the air, it is denser and has thus a greater quantity of oxygen that can be used for combustion. The ECU uses the intake air temps sensor to determine how much fuel needs to be added to suit the temp (and hence density) of the air in the manifold. As for filters (and other airflow mods), guess what the airflow meter does... Stock ECU's are quite capable of compensting for these sorts of mods up to a point. With FC's, it's the fuel pump that reaches it's capacity before the ECU has problems keeping up.
You keep saying that, but where's your proof that anything other than the stock IC is detrimental to performance? How are you going to argue with the people who've already posted to say they are running FMIC's on stock turbos and aren't experiencing any of the problems you claim will occur?
What have injectors got to do with it? You upgrade injectors whan they can't flow enough fuel to support your mods, not before. Injectors do not determine intercooling requirements.
When was I anything but mature? I'm simply refuting the points you made because I think they were incorrect. If you can't stand the heat... ;)

The only way to prove that point is to have a 7 with the TMIC and do a dyno and slap on a FMIC and do a dyno.

No fuel fuel adjustments..no upgrades...just FMIC and TMIC.....

In many cases, modern aftermarket turbos are more efficient than the stock turbo given the same boost level and flow rate.

FYI, the following items are NOT necessarily required on a turbocharged engine:
Intercooler
Wastegate
Blowoff Valve / Bypass Valve

Yes, but you are forgetting that some modifications decrease the BSFC, which means that there is more energy output for the same or lower fuel flow. ;)

Also, with respect to the function of a mass airflow type EFI as found on the 2Gen RX-7, NZConvertible is correct in that increases in airflow do automatically yield more fuel flow. This depends on the progamming and capabilities of the EFI system of course, but IMO the generalization is correct. Most mass airflow systems do in fact automatically compensate for small changes in performance, which the manufacturers really intended to compensate for wear rather than performance increases, but it still works somewhat for both conditions.

Save your fuel vs. airflow arguement for the reality-challenged piston folks who think that just slapping a 1200cfm carb on their Yugo engine is going to give them 800 horsepower. :D

It depends on the boost level, though, as well as the specifications of the FMIC. The FMIC vs. TMIC issue is a balance between whether or not the increased efficiency of the FMIC is worth the additional pressure drop from the additional piping and possibly also from the FMIC core and end tanks. You basically stated this in one of your previous posts. I think if you ran the stock boost and used the stock IC as a front mount, then your experiment may be a little more accurate.

BTW, most of the people on this forum do not have the experience to notice small reductions or increases in throttle response, turbo lag, or boost threashold, so you are wasting your time trying to argue these issues IMO.

See, this just typifies your simplistic approach to this whole argument. There are so many variables in your suggestion it's not funny.

For starters, a dyno is absolutely the worst place you could ever perform an intercooler comparison. There is no way you can replicate the true airflow over the entire car (especially the hood scoop).

Nobdy ever upgrades the IC first, so what's the point of having no upgrades?

And exactly what FMIC do you suggest we use? A tiny one with drinking straw pipes? A truck intercooler than requires the removal of most of the nosecone? Both will give you the poor performance you continue to claim.

But what if we used a sensibly sized intercooler with appropriately sized pipes? In that case performance will be improved with little if any downsides, as experienced by many people who have done this before.

Instead of arguing with me, how about you explain IAN's comments about the gains from his FMIC.

Damm!!!!!!!!

You guys are almost making me think I have gained no benefit with my FMIC.

How would you explain the fact that on track days I'm building and maintaining boost which was not acheivable before. The car felt more powerfull on the track with a simple FMIC install.

When I first installed it I was worried about the extra length and diameter of the intercooler tubing would induce lag. Again I have noticed not such thing. This was the logical first step for mods for me since I was having trouble heat soaking my TMIC. ALso since I planned on getting a TO4B I figured it would be nice to have the FMIC already there. Now if I get off my lazy ass and install all the stuff I really will put that FMIC to work:)

Maybe my limited experiences with FMIC and RX7's did not notice any small lags if there was any. Maybe more people with the Greddy FMIC should have some input or any stock turbo FMIC combination. All I can relay is my own experience with my car!

I'm not sure if I understand the comment about modern turbo chargers do not require FMIC, WG, BOV etc????

Ian Skacel

Ive been reading around and stuff and seeing the diffrences between TMIC and FMIC. Youd be suprised that a lot of WRX owners upgrade there TMIC to a bigger TMIC. Was wondering couldnt you use one of the bigger cors for a WRX and moddify it to fit a RX-7. Put a bigger scoop for better air flow. It would seem like it would be more efficent than anything.

GReddy doesn't post their intercooler stats, so I have no idea what to tell you. The bottom line is that if you think it performs better, then it was worth installing it.

So you could tell if your lag increased by 0.15 seconds? Most people can't, which is why it's not much of an issue for average drivers. The real issue with the additional plumbing bends and intercooler is pressure drop, which could cause the turbo to work harder, increasing heat, and ultimately diminishing any thermal efficiency gains of the FMIC. However, it is possible that your intercooler has little pressure drop through the core and end tanks, which makes up for the additional pressure drop of the increased piping. Once again, GReddy doesn't post any stats on their products, so I can't tell you either way. Besides, there isn't much hard information on the stock intercooler, so an accurate comparison is difficult just by number crunching. If you really want a good comparison, you will need to get a standalone EMS to measure the intake air temperature and MAP given the two setups, but this is not worth the trouble for most people. If you like what you have, then you should just stick with it. :)

Actually, its not modern turbos, it's any turbos. However, these items are usually not found in older turbo systems, as most of the modern turbo systems do tend to have these items. If the turbo is matched to the engine, then there is no need for a wastegate because the turbo will run out of steam when the engine has taken its fill. Most of the modern turbo systems you see have a much larger turbo, which requires a wastegate to keep from overboosting the engine. An intercooler is only needed to reduce the intake air temperature if detonation is an issue. While it does increase performance, an intercooler is not required if the turbo is run at a a thermal efficiency level and pressure ratio that does not induce detonation in the engine. The value of the BOV is overly hyped by aftermarket dealers. A BOV will help derail shockwaves back to the turbo, but this becomes less significant at lower boost levels.

how do they bolt in im in the process of geting one for my car and i wanted to know if it will bolt into a stock fronbumper setup

Personally, I think I will go ahead and work out a FMIC mod for my 7. From what I've learned in this thread a front mount will add some power to my current set-up and help prevent detonation if I decide to add a MBC for now and go hybrid in the future.

Turbo II addict--Westjaxvert was able to get an NPR IC (small) into his 'vert without cutting--that's what I plan doing.

Thanks again all,
B

For the Greddy VSPL there is a bit of cutting and modifications including bumper triming, Brake duct triming, and two holes will need to be cut to run the tubing. It took me some time to install it.

Ian