best path to 300 hp on a n/a
 

just like it says. ive got a catback and kn filter, but what else? just start listing em, thx

peripheral port and tuning :) or a 3 rotor N/A setup.

buy a turbo.. jk.

humm ive been debating that too

i was at the scca runoffs this past week and there were a few guys making 300-325 crank on a P port with carbs...

GT

p-port is the only way you're gonna do it with a 13b and there's no way you're going to have a streetable car with that kind of porting. It's not a realistic goal as a driveable n/a.

nitrous

i know this sounds stupid but, what is a periphrial-port?

.

Do some searching...I just recently posted a thread about it WITH pictures. Hit it up.

http://www.etrackmasters.com/dyno/tomtu.gif
dyno of a P port 1st gen
is that what you were looking for?

Lt1

+intake/exhaust then ~300...maybe a mild cam just for kicks :D

I take it that this is engine dyno figures right and not whp?

You're not going to hit 300hp, unless we're talking about a $10,000 motor with another several thousand worth of electronics.

Do you still have the stock intake manifold?
What is your exhaust system like?
Are you still running the stock ECU?


-Ted

10,000.00 motor?..... What are you building it out of? Gold?... :rlaugh:
Here is one of my current projects, the goal is street driven 300 rwhp n/a..
Someone asked me last night what I was into it for money wise, I guess around 1200 or so, but looking at my parts receipts and what not its sitting at around 1600 Canadian, its built with all genuine brand new mazda oem internals as well. New 9.7 rotors, rx-8 stat gears and some FD parts for good measure..
I am currently weighing ecu options between motec/autronic/haltech..
All said and done its gonna be around 6000.00 when its in the car running.. Probably be done in a month or so...Max
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...d=130536&stc=1
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...d=130934&stc=1
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...d=130935&stc=1
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...d=130937&stc=1
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...d=130938&stc=1

Don't you just love it when people claim they can do it cheaper when the whole thing isn't running yet?
I guess max is suddenly offering FREE labor and service for PP motors now!
Last time I checked, it wasn't free to build a PP motor...


-Ted

That was pretty lame...
How do you know how much it costs have you done one? How do you know everyone must pay for labour, nobody else could do this themselves, show me where labour was mentioned previous?..
There is little to no difference in labour between this motor and even a streetport, now are you going to claim its 10K to build a streetport?...In fact the porting on this motor has less time in it than a streetport, so if anything the labour would be cheaper overall on the engine build.
I can buy a RE amemiya JGTC spec 3 rotor p-port engine done for 10K canadian off the shelf which is still less than your 10K I would assume US dollar figure... I dont really know where you get off always trying to scare people off of stuff with ridiculous dollar figures, its a bit of trait of yours it seems, and I am not sure why you do it..

what anout custom manifolds and EFI or carb setup.... that part of the price right?

I'm doing a 12A PP right now. Budget is $1000 for the short block (including modification of rotor housings), about $400 for EMS (Megasquirt most likely), and a I already have the throttle bodies hanging around...While it won't be 300HP, I'm just saying that just because it's PP doesn't mean it has to cost a million dollars. :)

Considering the Price for a stock rebuild with mostly new parts WITHOUT PORT WORK from a large reputable shop is $6,000 USD I really do not think that $10,000 is far from what it would cost.

$10K is about right for Retail Purchase of an 89 Two Rotor Bridge Port engine.

For that money I would much rather use a Three Rotor or build a very nice Turbo Car.

rotor kit and seals kit $1000, balancing $500, pullies $120,oil bypass valve $60, 51 webber ida carb $750, carb manifold $150, rb header $200, labor $1,300 ( one of the best engine builders in the country [US]) TOTAL $4,080.00, 300+ hp racing engine, if you have to buy rotors and housings ad $2,000 more, this is all new parts.

I'd go...
100+ psi OPR
deep bearings (don't forget labor)
oil pump cavity port
external oil lines to bypass front cover and better oil delivery
oil pan baffle
hardened gears
race clearanced rotors to handle that high RPM's

All those "low" estimates assume labor is low or almost nil.
Try approaching Racing Beat or Mazdatrix about a motor like this, as see what kinda price quote you get...

http://www.mazdatrix.com/getprice.as...num=MZTX-13-PP

Wow, $8,600 from an engine from Mazdatrix...who would've though?
And that for the SHORT BLOCK ONLY...

http://www.mazdatrix.com/r-20.htm

Now slap on a nice ITB + EFI system, and we're talking easy $10k here.

And max thought I was talking out my ass...


-Ted

Yah if you go through someone else it's obviously going to be 10k+. Max is assuming that you do all the labor yourself and only count the cost of the parts. He's forgetting, though, that YOUR time is money, at least MY time is money to ME. Labor isn't free, it takes time out of your day that you could be doing other things, think of "opportunity costs." Just because you do the work yourself doesn't make it free, unless you devalue your own labor that much :p: My point is merely that I agree with Ted here, at least in the sense that I'm not going to value my own time and labor as nothing, when I could be doing other things with it and making money, enjoying myself in other ways, relaxing, or being more productive in other fashions of life.

You also have to remember that not everyone has the knowledge, resources, ability, or willingness to build a motor (whether it be streetport, bridgeport, pport, or anything) themselves. Max, just because it may be as simple as a streetport, in your mind, doesn't mean that everyone even wants to build streetports. That's why people go out and spend money on stock/mild engines for companies to build for them. I think Ted just does worst case scenario for THOSE types of people. Why go and tell someone they can do a pport for $6k or whatever only to have them find out later, when they want someone else to do it, that it is more? I find it better to expect things to be higher or much more expensive, that way if and when it IS cheaper if you can do it yourself, you're much happier and surprised rather than pissed off that you went $4k+ over in budget.

Also, Max, where are you coming up with 1600 canadian for all brand new Mazda internals? Did you get a deal or hookup from somewhere like Mazdaspeed (or whatever their name is now)? A pair of s5 rotors alone is over $1k without any discount or deal, so I'm assuming if all the internals are brand new you had to of gotten some kind of deal somewhere?

Not if it's your hobby.

I like your thinking. I too was going to use a similar TB for a PP project. Who says you have to spend shit loads of money for a new TB when something like this will do just fine. Nice thinking out side of the box Max. :D

Or you could buy and engine out of a recked Rx8 for $2,500 and have everything you need internally for a PP. That engine easily revs up to 10k stock. All you would need to do is mill the rotors for 2mm seals to handle the PP's. I would use 2 piece NRS ceramics for this one $1,500. The PP's could be done by forum member scaliwag for $300.00. Then you get creative like Max did with the intake and you could have one hell of an engine thats basically brand new. Now of course this all depends on how well the side exhaust work with the PP's?

Time is still worth something to everyone, even if it is your hobby. Again, think of "opportunity costs."

For example, say you are a person that works in a place where you somewhat choose your own hours and come in as you please and are paid hourly (I have a few friends that do this). By choosing to do something you enjoy, like building an engine, you are giving up the opportunity to work and make money. So everyones time can be thought of as worth something, even if they enjoy it.

I don't disagree with the enjoyment/hobby factor at all, so don't think that's what I'm saying. But time is still worth something, and for some reason people never think about this when pricing out a project. I mean, how long will your car be down during this process, will this require you to get rides, buy another car possibly, or drive a spare, what other misc things will you have to do along the way (labor-wise), will you have enough time in your schedule to finish the car in the amount of time you want, etc.

I personally don't believe that everything in the RX8 is up to handling lots of abuse for very long, though I don't know how long of a life you expect this engine (pport) to have?

I'd give the RX8 a few more years for people to put some higher miles on before I'd consider it safe for 10k operations while lasting a while too. Sure you can go to 10k, but a stock 13b CAN go to 10k too. The question is how long it'll last. From my research rx8's also seem to have lower oil pressure than the 2nd and 3rd gens (this is just from reading things on rx8club), but maybe that's because it was built better and doesn't need it? Not sure, but food for thought.

You get paid through the enjoyment and bragging rights of having a 300hp engine...........If youd rather go to work, make some money and pay someone else to do it then your not a true Enthusiast!!!!

Apparently no one was understanding what I was trying to get at... Did you not read the rest of that post? There was more after what you quoted, ya know...

I agreed with him, but was merely trying to make the point that time is still worth something. Even if you enjoy what you're doing and have the ability to build this motor yourself, you still have to spend time doing it and that should be considered in the cost, not just the monetary value of the parts.

Yes you are still talking out of your ass....
You need to learn how to order parts from Mazda correctly, and you can cut that bill for the parts down by more than 2/3's....
The most expensive parts I bought were the rotors, yes they are brand new and no they werent over 1K..., ..
The P-port housings were homemade from a core motor with salveable parts, as was the irons.. Grand total for the p-port housings...less than 150.00...
You are also assuming that one must pay for simple modifications, I thought this forum was for enthusiasts..Silly me...
Even if I charged a labour rate of 50/hr, I still couldnt make the whole thing touch 10,000 US even if I used new housings, maybe if I added a motec M8 to the mix.. But engine alone, no Freaking way...
I remember when I first got a TII, and everyone was giving me doomsday estimates of costs of mods, they were so far out to lunch it wasnt even funny..
If someone is charging 10k for an assembled p-port 2 rotor, they are ripping you off, bad...
And Ddub- Tvon is right about the Rx-8 parts, you'd be suprised out at how many are running rx-8 parts in race motors, mazda took alot of the clearances and specs for the renesis right out of their race programs...This motor is using some rx-8 parts, you can do your own figuring of it out, but lets just say alot of the parts internal on the renesis, are as good or better than alot of the "race" parts sold by some of the big name rotary houses....Basically you can order "performance Parts" pretty much across the counter at mazda..Its also nice how they let you order bearing clearances and matched parts with some of the best and consistant machining tolerances I have ever seen..
There are still some issues and what not but it can all be done at home, I build all my stuff in a 2 car garage, nothing to exotic compared to other forum members...This project has very little time in it, some other forum members saw this thing go together, it happened very quickly..
I thought about running a more exotic apex seal,but I really like the mazda oem seals, there is a way to run at them super high rpms and make them work, so I used them, plus this car is my grocery getter winter beater..

Lets keep this civil people :)

My .02 to the original poster's question: Nitrous.

You've got your priorities sorely misplaced...
If you think working on your car pays the bills, you're living in a dream world.
Yes, WORK comes FIRST.
Without WORK, I'm not rich enough to support working on the car.
Work PAYS for all the parts that go on the car.
Work allows me to work on the car.


-Ted

Nitrous isn't staying n/a.

Care to share that info?

Where'd you get them from them? Mazdacomp/Mazdaspeed or whatever? Because on Mazdatrix, only place I have to look for pricing on brand new rotors, they're $590 a piece or something like that. I was assuming you got them from the discounted Mazdaspeed dealer?

Never said people weren't, in fact I'm running RX8 stationary gears in the motor I recently built :)

I hear where you're coming from, my only concern is the true lastivity of the rx8 internal parts. I have an rx8, and frequent rx8club, and there are recalls for heating issues, people blowing motors on basically stock cars at 30k or less miles, etc. Granted this is not the majority, but it is still happening. I have no problem with the Rotors, e-shaft, and stat gears for now, but as for anything else I'd like a little more time *personally* before I trust them more. I prefer MFR products, which I used in my engine, for some of the other things.

I'm sure it can be done quickly, not doubting you at all. My points previously is that some people do not trust themselves or will not trust themselves, therefore they need to pay someone to do it. Other people's time is more valuable to them. Just putting it out there that there might be more factors involved. Personally, I'd prefer to do the "scare" tactic rather than sugar-coat everything. Rather have someone going into it and finding out it's easier/better and being happy in the end, than telling them it's cheap and easy as cake only for them to find it isn't for whatever reason :)

I'd like to see how those work over time, it'd be interesting. Most people I see going pport go with a 1 piece seal, so I'd like to see some other people trying other means.

Maybe my mazda dealer just likes me....:)...
I had a long talk with a mazda dealer mechanic one day over the Rx-8 engine, along with what are the common failures... They have had a few coolant leakers with porour castings and what not, but he told me pretty much all the failures of rx-8's engines he had seen were due to people screwing with the ecu and the tuning with piggybacks and what not... Mazda is apparently clamping down on warranty work on cars with tampered electronics, if you detonate your motor with a magic box, its your coin that will have to fix it.. But overall he reported no oiling or bearing problems..
The oem seal works very well, I saw how they go into RE's 3- rotor, but they were using the 3 peice stock seal to get a little more sealing..The secret is in the spring..Max

Or high school/college.

Same difference.

Unless you're making engines for a living, building a 300HP PP engine, while fun, doesn't put food on the table.

-=Russ=-

so off topic, and damn, is this a pissing contest? responding to the original question....why shoot for 300 hp? im sitting at prolly 200 or less, and im whooping on v8 mustangs and cameros, so why would u want 300hp...trying to catch something quicker? im happy w/ mine, and once i put in the GTUs rear end ill just have a bigger smile on my face as i walk away from the next camero.

ITBs off of tweakit.net....com...whatever, not sure, are about 1K aus. for a set. And im not sure what a haltech cost but last time i checked it wasnt $9000.

If you want to build up a hardcore N/A motor...try graduating or wating and working or something. Seriously, its taking me another year until im able to get a 2nd gen and have some serious work that MIGHT take place to that and i dont even think ill be even touching the motor yet ><

DIY is great. I love MAX for that reason :P

If you have to ask the price...you cant afford it :D

Apparently.. you also have access and know how to use a TIG welder... I hate you...

hell, i work at lowes, and on my break last night was admiring the welders we have for sale, hell w/ my discount they are still a ways off, oh the possiblities w/ my own MIG welder.......

You are correct! (college)

i too work at lowes. (hate the place, other than driving around in powered equipment). Migs there are expensive becuase its a LE. i go to outlet tool stores and buy cheaper ones.

Hmmm...you must be one of those guys who like to praise everyone else's work, but never can get a major project complete cause of too many excuses?


-Ted

I have:
$3400 P-Port from Pineapple Racing
$500 Balancing to correct massive imbalance installed by above vendor
$1200 E6X
$800 55mm IDA TB and various pieces
$700 QuarterMaster Twin Disk CLutch
$1200 Rebuilt Trans/Close Ratio Gears
$1200 Rebuilt Rear Diff with New Clutch type LSD
$450 SDJ Header
$250 AFCO Radiator

Still to buy/Pay
Dyno Time (Engine Dyno)
Presilencer
Exhaust Tubing
FD Oil Pump
Oil Lines

OK, we're getting off topic here....Bring it back, or I start cleaning the thread. :)

who recommends NOx on rotaries? of course its hp gain, and can be reliable when used responsibly, but how if in any way different, does it effect our cars? if nothing damaging, id say that would be one road to look down. not in my plans though so to say. and btw, what mods do u have EXACTLY?

Nitrous has been covered at length. A search for "nitrous" and the user "scathcart" should turn up lots of info.

Damn that's an expensive TB! I was making my own for well under half of that!