Another "How much Horsepower will I make if..." Thread
 

So I have an s4 TII with the following power mods:
Full RB Rev II Turbo-back Exhaust
Streetport
BNR stage 4 Turbo
Haltech e6k
Cone filter intake (no AFM) to stock IC
Venom 255 Fuel Pump
550/720cc Injectors

So I know this is a fairly common setup but I was wondering what hp numbers people think this setup will net.

I am also curious as to what difference people experienced with the addition of a frontmount, because that is the next mod I'm considering.

No, the car doesn't run right now (no spark... ) but I'm taking it to Shook Motorsports in Rockford IL in a few weeks to have him get it running, and tune it.

awww... isn't she cute :)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y28...toshoot_06.jpg

So, I was talking with my tuner and he expects my hp to be somewhere between 300 and 350 which is great. He also said that I will be pretty much maxxed on fuel at that point. has anybody else gotten 350hp with a similar fuel setup?

you will need more injector. that's less injector than what FD's come with stock (they have 550/850 side feed injectors which do not work on FC's).

with bigger injector and intercooling, good for 400.

depends on the dyno you're on and how much boost you're going to run. @15psi, i'd expect around 290-310hp on a normal dyno. the more optimistic the dyno, the higher the number

Thanks for the input guys.

Since I have a haltech I can put whatever Injectors I want and just adjust the fuel map right?

so since I already have 720cc secondaries I'm thinking of just getting a pair of 1600s for secondaries and using the 720s as primaries and having done with it in case I want a bigger turbo in the future. Is this wise/going to work?

720/1680 will be plenty of fuel. that's what I run with my T04R which is bigger than a BNR stage 4

I realize that that will be plenty of fuel, my concern is that it's TOO MUCH.

I just want to be sure that you can tune the extra fuel out of the map on a haltech so I don't run retardedly rich...

thats the BEST way to go about it.

its more trouble to add fuel than it is to remove fuel.

i would like to state that the stock top mount ic will limit your max hp with that turbo, and you should look at other means of intercooling the intake air besides a top mount.

well technically it would be easier to tune idle and low load if you just got two 550cc primary injectors.

Ok so basically, you can't ever have too much injector. Good to know lol. And ease of tuning isn't as big a concern for me as lack of fuel since i'm not the one who's doing the tune.

Anybody have a set of 1600cc injectors for an s4 they want to sell please pm me :)

Also yes I know my tmic will limit power but I just don't have the cash to buy a frontmount setup right now. I was just curious if anybody else has done this and what their results were.

You can have to much fuel. The bigger the injector the less time it stays open to get the right amount of fuel under low load situations. You can get to the point where injector dead times and the battery offset start effecting the low load fueling and it almost wont or doesnt idle.

yeah, this is basically true. but you can idle a 13b with 2000cc injectors. youd have to pay a lot for the injectors though.

I think you'd be happy with 550/1200

This set-up tuned by Steve Kan; 322hp @ 12psi (Tuned on two spark plugs, due to malfunction of second trailing coil.)

1600cc secondaries, 720cc primaries, Walbro 255lph fuel pump, Racing Beat REV-TII exhaust, TII drivetrain, ACT HD clutch w/ ACT SS performance disc, ACT Prolite flywheel, 3mm apex seal + rebuild with mild street port, custom intake, A'PEXi Power FC for FD3S with Banzai adapter, BNR Stage 4 turbo, custom FMIC set-up + HKS SSQV III BOV, remove all emissions, cheap aftermarket FPR, Koyo radiator... (The BNR stage 4 is rated up to 400hp.)

I know I could get a hell of a lot more out of this set-up. I didn't want too much boost yet... Not enough miles on the engine. In the end, my goal for 300hp was definitely reached. This car runs STRONG, and with great response. Good luck with your 300+hp build!

ok, so I think I'm going to go with 720/1000 injectors since it will give me some good headroom, but not overkill.

Also, Ryan @ Shook Motorsports was telling me that Injector Dynamics injectors are superior to say, some bosch injectors and that with the Injector Dynamics injectors he could tune out things like a stumble when the secondaries come on, whereas with the boscch ones that wouldnt be possible. Or at least there would always be a stumble, he would just be able to minimize it. Anybody know anything specific about Injector Dynamics? Experience?

I think before you buy anything/ change anything or before you get your car tuned you should do more research on setups like yours, injectors that are out there, how much fuel needed to make xxxhp. there is SOOO much information on this forum and many others. To answer your question. ID (injector dynamics) injectors are one of the best injectors you can buy atm (personal opinion). There are many suppliers that sell the "newer" style injector but basically the 2 most common talked about suppliers are FIC(fuel injector clinc) & ID(injector dynamics). when i say 'newer" style injector i am referring to FIC's and ID's. Now google FIC vs ID's or older bosch injectors vs newer. ect. You should be able to gather all your basic information from google

alright, so what I gather is that the ID injectors are of higher quality and are able to be tuned with a much higher degree of accuracy. They are however pretty expensive, and I dont have the cash laying around to get 4 of them, especially since I already have the 720cc injectors.

so... is there any benefit from just getting 2 ID 1000cc secondaries and re-using my 2 older style 720cc primaries? or should I just not bother and get 2 cheaper bosch injectors for my secondaries?

That's up to you... I have no problem with my Bosch injectors.

Sell all the injectors you got. buy 4 ID 2000cc's and be done with it. never look back. why do the same procedure over and over again. Im sure, just like 90% of the people that make 300hp 6 months later they want 400hp...it kinda goes that way. FFE can get you good prices on ID injectors. OR just sell everything you got and get 4 FIC's. there very similar injectors. why do you NEED to drive your car atm? is it your daily driver?

over the course of researching over the day, yes I pretty much came to that same conclusion. Although I'm going to go with 4 x 1000cc ID injectors, since 720 and 1000 are the same price. Also, with ID injectors you can actually idle like stock with 1000 or even 2000cc injectors, which is just not possible with ye olde bosch 1600s. So basically I get plenty of overhead for when I get an FMIC or upgrade my turbo, and at the same time i get new injectors that will give me better gas mileage and a steady idle. only drawback? they're $115 a piece... (the 2000cc are $240 so unless I plan on making over 500hp I'll be just fine with injectors half the cost) but i suppose they'll pay for themselves in time.

and yes, I have to carpool/take the bus to work because my 7 is my only car.

Is it ok to run 1000cc injectors for primaries? I always hear of set ups with smaller primaries...

How much was that BNR turbo??

BNR Website

Products: Mazda Products: RX-7 2nd Generation

yes

What makes the ID injectors better than regular injectors? All I know is they're expensive as hell...

They have better response time. The needle basically moves faster.

so, I just thought I'd update this thread...

There was an enormous wait to get into the shop, and now it's taken almost 3 weeks but I'm supposed to get my car back THIS WEEKEND! and it will be tuned! I may be a little over excited, but screw it. My car has been down for almost a year and I need me some sweet boost lovin'!

Will update this thread with the actual numbers when I have them, but feel free to speculate some more about how much power I will make.

Well....

Ryan finally got my car running and on the dyno. He spent all day yesterday tuning the thing and today it made 240hp at 10psi when the worst happened.

I spun a bearing and the motor is f#@ked.

Ryan was telling me that I could easily have made 300hp at around 20psi, so I guess we know the limits of this setup. This is with compression in the high 90s on the rear rotor and low 90s on the front rotor and a streetport.

Watching my intake temps was another story though, they would start at around 80 degrees and then climb to over 210 before redline! it comes down to the fact that the stock tmic just cannot handle the job of cooling the air with that turbo. So for the sake of protecting against detonation, or if you dont care about that, more horsepower: don't use the stock tmic with a big hybrid turbo!

anyways... now I have no money left and I have a perfectly tuned car that will run great for about a mile before the engine is garbage... Thinking about swapping in another motor, or maybe parting the car out. I really would like to keep it, but what can you do...

I thought I'd update this sort of improptu build thread I have going here with some GOOD news for once.

MY CAR IS BACK ON THE ROAD!! OMG!

sorry about that... It's just been a loooooong and bumpy road to this point.

I bought a running shortblock locally from 2slow4stock and swapped that bitch in there. There were a few initial hurtles, such as a leaky water pump and some epically confusing timing and ignition issues. But that's all sorted out FINALLY.

The car drives pretty damn well. But it sorely needs a new tune. Basically, I can drive it to work, but no full throttle, or really even half throttle because of angry lean spikes here and there.

anyway, there are no leaks, no smoke, and it holds rock solid idle, so I call it a success :)

I'm going to get my car tuned this coming weekend, so I'll post up the numbers I get and close this thread on a positive note.

I did some dyno runs a while back on a similar setup, made 240hp at 9psi, at 5900rpm. That was on a stock s5 turbo.

20psi on that turbo seems a bit much, also, 300 seems real real low. Tell Ryan to up his game a bit. ;)

^ I dont want to run any more hp becasue intake temps are out of control with the stock tmic. if it wasn't for that HUGE restriction I could probably make 320-340hp safely. as it is... with intake temps reaching 200 with ice on the IC, I am hesitant to even push it past 16psi.

In the end, I'll trust his judgement though. This tuning crap is all snake magic to me anyway lol

How much boost can the stock TMIC handle??

Why not go front mount or V-mount? Money??

i'm curious how the shop knew it had a spun bearing. did they analyze the oil and find babbett shavings engulfing the oil?

i just VERY rarely find motors with bearing issues unless it was starved of oil at any point.

could have been an excuse and a tuning error killed the motor.

call me skeptical but something doesn't sound right. been doing this too long and something doesn't add up.

This is what I was curious about...

I would think your set-up could pull quite a bit more than 300 HP at 20 PSI. (With a different intercooler set-up, that is.)

If this is your set-up:

Full RB Rev II Turbo-back Exhaust
Streetport
BNR stage 4 Turbo
Haltech e6k
Cone filter intake (no AFM) to stock IC
Venom 255 Fuel Pump
550/720cc Injectors

And my set-up is:

RB Rev TII exhaust *same
Mild streetport *same
BNR stage 4 turbo *same
A'PEXi Power FC
Cone filter (no AFM, obviously) *same
Walbro 255 fuel pump *pretty much same
720/1,600cc injectors

Of course our set-ups differ in many ways, but we also have some similarities.
I have 3mm apex seals, ACT Prolite flywheel, FMIC, and as stated above - bigger fuel injectors.

I guess what I am trying to say... I think you could DEFINITELY pull 300 HP on 10 PSI with a FMIC or V-mount. I pull 322 RWHP at only 12 PSI. So, saying, "So I guess we know the limits of this setup..." Is, to me, completely under-estimating your set-up.

I don't know... Perhaps I am "over-estimating" your fuel injectors. I am no tuner, and not looking to start an argument, or convince you to ditch the TMIC. I am just saying... You have a great set-up with great potential.

I wish you the best of luck!

it's already been said that the 550/720 combo will struggle to make 300.

Ah... Then superior IC set-up with bigger injectors?

I wasn't sure/obviously didn't read. Ha - Forget what I said.

yep, a more efficient intercooler will make getting to peak horsepower a much easier job. with 1000 secondaries, 720/720 or larger it should be able to get to 350 without much trouble. the intercooler is going to be the bottleneck here.

as far as 20psi is concerned, you will need race fuel, E85 or auxiliary injection to run it that high. even a stage 4 with a great flowing intake setup will have a difficult time producing power to that PSI level. it is also dangerously close to premium pump gas' auto ignition level.

What karack said +1

Spinning a bearing on a rotary is hard to do even when its intentional.

Ah, I forgot to mention that I upgraded my injectors after I started this thread. I am now running 1000cc/1000cc Injector Dynamics Injectors.

Also, I wasn't really planning on hitting more than like 18psi just because the high intake temps were concerning me. maybe more like 15psi just to be safe...

Good to hear that's how much power you're making dwb87. Someday when I get a FMIC Our numbers will be just about the same, which is good since mid 300s is my hp goal for a FMIC, my goal now is high 200s, maybe 300 as long as it seems safe to run whatever boost is required to get there. And yes, I have no money right now, so doing any "unnecessary" work on the car will have to wait. That's why I don't have a FMIC.

to what Karack said:
I wasn't actually there when the motor finally died, but I was there only a few minutes later. Basically it just started making a weird metal on metal noise and was down on power. not by a whole lot though, and it still held idle fine and there was no smoke. We drained the oil and there was copper confetti in it so something ruined the bearing. Maybe "spun a bearing" isn't exactly what happened, but the bearings are certainly ruined. Not sure you can get a motor to do that by tuning it...

This also could have been my fault. I left the crank case vent open to the air for months... maybe a spider crawled up in there or something. who knows. The engine is sitting in my garage now, but I haven't pulled it apart yet.

i just was curious to know how it came to that conclusion. you'd be surprised how many people will play something off as something else to throw you in a different direction, bait and switch.

Oh I know there are some very disreputable mechanics out there.

But I'd like to think I know enough to smell BS. I made him show me evidence to support his claim. And I don't honestly think he COULD have blown my engine like that. Unless he dropped something in the oil? Then again he never changed the oil...

I blame myself, crappy luck, and maybe even my engine builder (different guy... in KY, engine only had 3k on a rebuild), but I have a hard time blaming this guy.

Plus this guy has a good reputation in the local community, and all the rest of the work he's done on my car has been solid.

failures usually will show more easily when under severe extremes. i just found it odd as these engines rarely have that sort of failure unless something was wrong inside the engine to start with.

perhaps it had spun a bearing previously and he reused a rotor that shouldn't have been reused
the oil pickup tube or oil pump wasn't properly torqued
the oil pump drive gear wasn't checked and the nut backed off
the bearings were severely worn but reused anyways
the eccentric shaft had some damage that created galling on the bearings
there was excessive debris left in the motor from the build that damaged rotating surfaces


well after listing it all i suppose there is quite a bit that can go wrong, but rarely does.

I think the term "spun bearing" was actually used when it should not have been. He meant to say "ruined bearings" They will find out the how when they tear it down.

Ive taken apart lots of j-specs where the stat gears and rotors have trouble comming off the e-shaft. Rust has formed in the center of the bearing on the e-shaft creating a slight oxidation ridge/ring enough to make it hard to pull them off the e-shaft.

Now take an engine like that and instead of cleaning it up and rebuilding it imagine it goes on a dyno with a big turbo. The clearence of the endplay is more than enough to knock off some oxidation deposits and the oil pressue pushes them into the bearing clearence. viola, unhappy gaulled bearings and a drainpan full of shavings.

Its manly to say "welp I dun spun me a bearing" and thats what gets repeated till its accepted by all involved.

^ This

:lol:

I think you and Karack are right. I think I used the term "spun bearing" incorrectly and I really meant ruined bearing. I thought MORE people would understand spun bearing than ruined bearing, and to be honest, I didn't really know the difference, but I guess I was wrong.

720/1000

nuff said

No... Not "nuff said".

720cc/1,000cc injectors + better intercooler set-up.
(This has pretty much already been discussed.)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y28...llinois_US.jpg

awww yeaaaaaa

All it took was another engine lol, but my baby is back!

and yes... the graph looks like crap, but I assure you my curve feels good. And yes I did already manage to spill coolant on it after only 2 hours...

This is at 15psi. I could turn up the boost more but intake temps were reaching 180 degrees and I didn't want to push my luck. I think they'll be quite a bit lower on the road because of the much improved airflow but why take chances eh?

When I get a FMIC I will probably gain like 30-40 HP because of the better flow/lower intake temps/higher boost. But this is plenty of fun for now.

also speaking to the injector confusion: I HAVE NEW INJECTORS!!!
1000/1000 Injector Dynamics Injectors! There is plenty of fuel.

Nice! Are the 1000/1000 injectors currently installed? And yeah... The FMIC will be kind to you.

They sure are

I know! I wish I wasn't losing my job right now... so many things to buy for the 7 lol.