T56 swap into 20b
 

I got the QuickTime bellhousing. Looks like a well made unit. It has edges that are larger than the stock bellhousing, so if you're close to the firewall, you will need to clearance it.

Having said that, I ran into a first problem:

The LS1 T56 input shaft protrudes from the front plate of the T56 6.46 inches. The QuickTime bell measures 6.00 in depth.

This means that the input shaft will stick out from the bellhousing-engine mating surface 0.46" which I know is way too far out. It needs to be almost flush--I think the stock setup has about 1mm (about 0.03-0.04 inches) of stock pilot shaft protruding from the bell-engine mating surface.

I think I'm the first to try to do this with quicktime bell. Before I go with custom input shaft route, is there an appropriate input shaft I can use from other models that will stick out 6inches rather than 6.46inches? Thank you.

call liberty gear they will make you what ever you want there doing mine for like 300 something bucks

Check with Havoc, he did this (on a FC), but same trans and bellhousing:

https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo...ative-1082861/

AusRotary.com ? View topic - T56 TR6060 to FC3S conversion

yea I just pm'd havoc and he said it sits flush and not poke out 0.46". I'm waiting on his picture, or if you're reading havoc, please feel free to post it here too.

Only difference is that he has manual bellhousing, and I got the auto bellhousing. unless the thickness of the bell & steel plate is thicker on the manual housing, or the online t56 dimensions are wrong, this doesn't make sense.

I think i have clutch + flywheel option figured out at $1200 which is rated to 650ft-lb. it's quartermaster rally-v twin clutch 7.25". the quartermaster tech team (Russel) own a rotary and was more than willing to help! :icon_tup:

awaiting havoc's reply at this point.

I know to use a miata Trans on the 13b you swap the bell from an S4 in and then grind the input shaft down about an inch.
Mazdatrix has a write up on what they do.
https://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/miatainputshaft.htm


Sounds like you have even less to remove.

the picture shows them just shortening the splined portion shaft and retains the pilot/input shaft length.

you don't want to cut too much of pilot shaft since that will center and provide stability for the input shaft. it's about 1" long, so removing 1" would be not very optimal.

I have the quartermaster twin clutch ( i think the same you are mentioning) and it has very bad drivability with my T56. Worse than my Exedy triple disk had. To verify, check to see if it is the same clutch that Howard Coleman posted in his converstion. He has since changed to another clutch as well. You should investigate what Howard went to.

he's using a mcleod rst custom with an fd auto bell housing same as me

well that's a bummer... I specifically asked for the most streetable clutch they had. It's 7.25" v-drive twin clutch. P/N is 298090ry. I appreciate the heads-up.

Same stack is being used in evo and they are getting great reviews. well I already ordered them, and I hope I would like it because then we would actually have a very affordable clutch option for all those looking to put t56 behind a rotary without any custom work.

The McLeod RST Clutch is amazing. You get all the power holding you could imagine in a twin disc, full-face organic setup. It's the ONLY option I'd run with T56 for a street car.

We have one in my neighbor's 2010 Camaro SS and it's excellent. It'll last 2x the lifespan of his OEM too, which I find remarkable.

def keep us posted the reason i didnt use it is because everything i read about and everyone i talked to said that a 7.25 clutch is not friendly on the street at all

I just did this to a 13b. My measurements for the length issue was .51", so we chopped the splines down .58" for safety and turned it down to the outer diameter of the pilot(Don't remember that measurement).


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...2fc741bdf4.png


Bellhousing: https://www.holley.com/products/driv.../parts/RM-4091


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...e138b3a7ec.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...c4eff9eec4.jpg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...5058ea6c51.jpg

Motor/fab work by Angel Motorsports

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...4e81b54889.jpg



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...dd0270ca93.jpg

Shifter fitment. I cut a little bit out, you can see where the original boot bolt holes are for reference. And excuse the mess, haven't gotten around to re-painting the interior yet.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...52a98978c0.jpg

Realistically, I think you can make a thicker plate that goes in-between the bell housing and motor with proper dowels. But this was my question option.

thanks for the photos!

hey is the flywheel for the auto bellhousing slightly smaller than the manual flywheel?

My new flywheel by quartermaster measures 11.5" in diameter. and my Exedy for manual FD trans measures 12.5" in diameter.. pictures attached.

thanks!

nevermind. The quartermaster flywheel is a non-turbo wheel, and they don't make turbo flywheels. That's why the diameter was 1" too small. Mazdatrix with aluminum ring gear will work with quartermaster clutch but will last a few months in a street car--appreciate their honesty.

soo... I'm back to square one. McLeod clutch sounds great and all, but they don't make the flywheel and that needs to be custom made by beyondredline who is only interested in whole kit for 3k. No thanks.

I'm open to suggestions. My next option is clutchmaster or spec who say they have triple disc setup for 1500-2k but it won't be too streetable. Tilton and spec keep trying to sell me their carbon as "streetable" but both company say their clutch needs to be shimmed every few months which I don't consider street at all. Carbonetic is out of business. Exedy will work but their tech support is useless when it comes to putting their own parts together to accept t56 26spline shaft with FD flywheel.

I did find a really good company who can remachine any friction disc center to accept different spline pattern -- californiaclutch.com. They can also make a custom pressure plate. This may be an option. I can send an FC push style Exedy clutch and just machine the center hole of the friction disc.

if you guys can think of any better options, I'm all ears. I'm leaning toward californiaclutch to modify my FD clutch orrr go with triple disc.

hey LoU "hOw Ya Do", are you sure you and Howard are using RST clutch? McLeod keep saying RST is too big for our flywheel surface.

I think you have McLeod Mag Force twin p/n 681712-00-07. It's a twin clutch that you need to press in the stock ring gear.

LoU "hOw Ya Do", I think you're wrong.

I talked with McLeod at length. I talked with Billy who is one of their techs.

He said RST pressure plate bolts are 12.8" apart. Our ring gear outer diameter is 12.5". There is no physical way to fit RST clutch onto our flywheel. Impossible!

Most likely, Howard is running the MagForce twin by McLeod which is smaller iron sintered disc which is considered a "race" clutch for whatever it's worth. If he raves about it, he must have very high tolerance for clutch feel.

Mag Force P/N is 681712-00-07. The TO bearing you need is P/N: 14-302. Both sell for about $2400-2500 on summitracing.

I think I am leaning toward clutchmaster option--850 twin disc clutch. Will update when I can.

SPEC offers the best value at $1300 WITH bearing. I am just weary about going solid triple disc. Cluchmaster has low rate spring to keep chatter down and one of the disc is sprung.. it seemed like it's the most street-oriented clutch of them all. The total price was $2300-2400 shipped for clutchmaster. If that doesn't work, I probably give SPEC clutch a shot.

yea i'm sure its an rst its a custom setup made by beyond redline using a mcleod clutch and custom flywheel you cant buy it off the shelf beyond redline sells it only

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...-905977/page9/

go to post #210

trust me when i tell you that i have done more research then you could have ever believe on this topic. I'm telling you the only reason i didn't use the quicktime setup that you are using is because of clutch options. there is maybe 3 company's that make 7.25" clutch setups and they are not fun to drive on the street at all its a nightmare. thats why the auto FD bell option was the best at least thats my opinion. with beyond redline making there custom setup and how the drivability is with the power it can hold to me was a no brainer.

about the bell, I thought I was limited to 7.25 too. but the QT bellhousing fit my exedy twin disc! which is 8" friction disc diameter and it definitely has room for more. I'm giving clutchmaster a shot which has 9" friction diameter. I'll report on that next weekend.

My contention with the RST is simply this: when I talked to the tech Billy at McLeod, I was adamant there are already people using RST on our flywheel. After some back and forth he got the RST clutch, took a tape measure, and told me the bolt for the pressure plate is 12.8" apart. Mind you, our ring gear is 12.5" in outer diameter (I posted a picture of it). It's physically not possible to fit RST onto our flywheel. unless Howard is running a larger flywheel than stock but that doesn't seem likely since he said he pressed in the stock ring gear to make it work. Besides I doubt anything larger will fit our auto bell since there is hardly any extra space between flywheel and the oem bell inner diameter.

so that's my research so far. Either the tech (Billy) at McLeod was lying or Howard was mistaken about the model name. I think it's much more likely that Howard may be mistaken about the model name because there is an exact product he seems to be describing--the Mag Force which comes complete with everything (including 26spline friction disc and FD flywheel) that you just need to press in the ring gear into which Howard said he had to do.

after flopping on the quartermaster offering, I really wanted the RST also. It was cheaper and had very good reviews. The techs at McLeod says the clutch is larger than our flywheel. That's the end of discussion, no? unless you or howard has a unique solution we don't know about. not trying to be argumentative but what McLeod is saying make Howard's post not possible. I'm absolutely not calling him a liar. I just think he got the model name wrong.

FWIW, i am pulling my T56 tomorrow as reverse has always been a problem and i am going to get it tuned up.

i will check on my clutch package.

ok so me and stickmantijuana talked on the phone earlier today and went over our setups and what we both know. so it looks like the QT bell can hold a bigger setup then a 7.25" clutch were not 100% but he will have conformation on this in a few weeks. also i'm going to call up IR Performance on monday to check my clutch and see if its that other mcleod clutch stickmantijuana was talking about. or if howard beastsme to it when he takes his tranny out. either way if that QT bell holds a bigger clutch and flywheel setup this will open up a whole lot more options with the T56 setup

anyone reading this that wants a t56 setup stay tuned lol

Every QT bellhousing I have installed had a plate between the engine and bellhousing. This is mandatory to be qualified as explosion proof.

The rotary transmissions I am familiar with had a lot more than 1mm protrusion past the bellhousing face, this combined with the block plate should make everything line up.

THAT SAID. Every T56 QT bellhousing I've installed also needed some significant shimming and in some cases machining in order to get the transmission on axis with the engine. So I wouldn't worry about trans depth until you find out if you need to get the trans mounting surface faced.

This is the reality of low production parts, you need to do the final machining and checking yourself. Nothing aftermarket is bolt on and go.

i hear that lol its a shit show on how many times i had to change things around after buying something that was "bolt in"

Hi Stick,

Sorry didn't realise you had a thread.

WOW I never knew that quicktime had a clutch Dia size limit.
Well I didnt follow it.....

I think in my writeup on AR I run the Direct clutch setup. Im sure its a 8"

It fit no problems at all :)

I think techincally they even sell the setup now for the fly wheel and plates for the TR6060 (t56)

Rotary to Tremec T6060


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...bcf354074b.jpg


Direct Clutch - Rotary to Tremec

But I had the Direct clutch one for the stock box running for a few years and then just got the plates adapted to suit the tremec patten.

yea that was the problem QT was saying that that bell housing could only take a 7.25" clutch and that doesn't seem to be the case it looks like

the P/N on the Mcleod box is:

Mazda RST 9 11/16 X1-1/8X26

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/TRiGDy.jpg

thanks for the picture!

I'll talk with Mcleod tomorrow.. f'ing Billy at Mcleod screwed me up.

Thanks for clearing it up.

i really wanna see if this fits in the quicktime bell

ok so i said screw it and i picked up the quicktime bell to see if it fits ill keep you guys posted

Another option that may work pretty well would be OS Giken. Although they are a full metallic I have had numerous twin and triple plate setups in my various cars and found them easy to daily.

The "R" series has a separate hub that we could specify to fit the T56. I enjoyed my R3C in my FD and although it wasn't OEM drivability the learning curve wasn't bad.

PM me if you need help dealing with them, I have some friends that work there.

ok so i dropped off the bell to the shop and it looks like it will work with no issues plenty of room so i guess the 7.25 clutch myth with the quicktime bell is exactly that...a myth

ok so im having the same problem with the input shaft being about 1/2" to long

Any idea on measurements on how close in length the 20b with a T5 or even a T6 is to the shifter center to a 20b with a Turbo II 5 speed?

Trying to figure out if I would need to cut new hole in cab for shifter to come thru on a repu.

Howard- what flywheel are you running with the McLeod RST?
What slave cylinder?

That clutch drives awesome behind LSx setups and is super light pedal pressure, non grabby.... rated at 800rwhp.

I sell all McLeod and Tremec products.... but have yet to get a straight answer on what flywheel and slave will work running a Quicktime Bellhousing behind a 13B/20B setup.

i'll give you a clear answer. Any clutch that'll fit onto flywheel with RX7 ring gear seems to give no problem with quicktime bellhousing. It'll be custom setup, but these american companies seem to have no issue coming up with what we need. It's much better than dealing with all these JDM bullcrap retailers charging arm and leg for anything that have to do with rotary. I got my twin clutch setup custom machined by clutchmasters for about $1700 shipped. It included the flywheel, spacers, etc--everything you need. Mcleod also offers the same service for very reasonable price---just about couple hundred over what they charge for off the shelf products.

as for T56, you need to machine the input shaft so that it'll only stick out 6" from the front plate of the transmission and leave 1" for pilot engagement shaft if you are using quicktime bell housing. No off-shelf t56 will work with quicktime bell housing unless you space it out using spacer between the bell and rear iron. but I just had mine machined since it was cheaper and cleaner.

btw, the cost also included hydraulic throw out bearing and lines.

to clarify what i meant by t56 input shaft. The total length you want to stick out from the front plate of the transmission should be precisely 6" which means the splined portion of it should be precisely 5", and the pilot engagement shaft should be precisely 1".

For you guys that are running the OE GM hydraulic release bearing, I assume you spaced it correctly so there's about 1/8" clearance. Are you guys running a clutch pedal stop with the OE Mazda Clutch master cylinder?

Oh man! This is some great information! I'm surprised nobody has done a write up on this swap yet.

I'm new to the RX7 world but pretty detailed oriented and mechanically inclined. I've been using a whiteboard to write down what's needed for a T56 swap (I happen to have a Ford model. Still 26 spline) and will post an easy guide and list of materials needed. I need a lot of parts and will focus on the mating of the T56 first.

Currently I have:
-Auto bellhousing
-Auto Starter
-Auto counter weight (so I won't need to anything…just buy the flywheel, and bolt it to my existing automatic counterweight.)
-T56 (Ford Style) I chose this because the face of the trany to the tip of the input shaft is ~5.64"....THIS IS ~1" less than the GM style

Things I need to buy:

If anybody has any of these I would love to know and possible buy
- Mazda Clutch Master cylinder
- Mazda clutch pedal (FD01-41-30XA)
- Mazda clutch pedal gasket (H00141443)
- Mazda brake pedal (FD01-43-30XB)
- Leather Shifter boot (FD01-64-3306-00)
- Adapter plate Mcleod T-56 adapter plate:
- 8-207 GM style.
I guess there's another style a 8-204 which is for a Ford style but I can't find it for sale.

On this piece of the puzzle I have also sent an email to Mr. Coleman, americanpowertrain (APGM-10003G) and Chipsmotorsports to see if they make an adapter for the T56 to Auto bellhousing. I see Collins makes an adapter for the Nissan 350/370 tranny so I sent them a message to see if they could make one for the T56.

- Strange Transmission 31 spline Yokes U1659
I'm choosing a yoke so that I can be able to use my stock drive shaft wile just modifying one end. But I'm also thinking maybe buying a lightweight Ford drive shaft and modifying the diff side's companion flange. Does anyone know where I could buy a companion flange that will press onto a stock Mazda diff?

- Exedy lightweight flywheel: zf01
As for the clutch I've scoured through EXEDY's product listing (like all 10000 products) and found a couple.
- Exedy 04138 (Its meant for a S10 but it should work)

-Mazda RST 9 11/16 x 1 1/8 26Tooth (this is copied from Mr. Coleman’s setup)


I don't know what kind of hydraulic throw-out bearing to use - McLeod 14-302 Hydraulic throw-out bearing? Or maybe the Tilton 60-6102? Or maybe a cheap one off a Mustang like the EXEDY BRG0159?
If you want to go with Quick time bellhousing I found this spacer RM-199 from Quicktime (I believe it’s to fix the issue of the bellhousing being too short). I have also sent messages out to Holley about which starter to use with there bellhousings (looks like there might be a couple different types of 13b to ______ style tranny now) so I can relay that information on here.

That’s all I can think about for today. I’m really excited to get this project started!

What bellhousing did you use from Quicktime? I see that they got a bellhousing with a rear facing starter now:
https://www.holley.com/products/driv...rts/RM-4091MWA

Did you have to machine the transmission to clear the starter?

"The McLeod RST Clutch is amazing. You get all the power holding you could imagine in a twin disc, full-face organic setup. It's the ONLY option I'd run with T56 for a street car."

yes...

i haven't been following this thread but my Mcleod setup continues to impress me. i run a Mcleod custom rotary flywheel and the RST clutch package. it is almost stock clutch pedal and feathers like a dream.

my setup is an auto rear iron, auto belhousing w a 1/4 inch shaved off the back end, my adapter plate ($385 plus shipping), auto starter, Mcleod throw out bearing... the Mcleod TOB has a spotty rep so i recommend the Tilton 6000, shortened driveshaft (i run a really nice Quartermaster alum w replaceable U joints), a GTO shifter mechanism, a Lou's Short Shifter w a Hurst (love it) white 2 inch shifter ball.

i wired the reverse lockout switch to one of the rocker switches on the center panel near the shifter.,

that auto starter bellhousing would be bolt on. no cutting of transmission is needed. if you buy manual starter bellhousing, you will need to cut front of t56 whic isn't a big deal imho and will save you some cost and headache of potential clearance issues depending on where your engine is mounted.

both bellhousings are 6" in depth including scatter shield. one thing I don't like about auto housing is that the starter plate is welded with wrong offset. told this to QT and they basically told me to f*** off. i suppose i can weld up the holes and use it as a dog bowl.

it has been a week since i swapped in the Tilton 6051 hydraulic clutch release bearing. works perfectly. do not go near the Mcleod bearing. also, if you go w the RST clutch package i suggest the aluminum flywheel.