Stewie says "It's a Boy!" - I say, it's an FC 20B!! We're both right though =)
 

Additional pics =)

And more =)

And, um, more :)

That's all for now folks. have more on my phone, but I've misplaced the transfer cable rofl!

Cheers to all!!

Cool dude. I do keep considering putting my 20B in my FC. More room for manifold etc. Then putting my PPort in the FD!

looking good mate.

Very interesting read. Thanks.

I am also fortunate enough to have a 20B FC. You will not regret it, they are lots of fun. The torque that these motors can produce is fantastic.

You did well by going to Xtreme Rotaries too. Rohan has performed some work on my motor and the quality and worksmanship is second to none! You do get what you pay for, as he is the best.

Good luck and keep us updated.

Nice looking project man! The only thing that bothers me about the project is the fan shroud on the radiator. It should be lipped out otherwise you wont be allowing flow from the outer edges of the radiator. and on a 20b cooling is a HUGE issue to tackle. Im still fighting with it on mine.

Thanks for all the comments guys, Very much appreciated!!

You're absolutely right bcool! My design sheet showed the shroud flush at the weld points, but 3cm away from the radiator at the point the fan would mount. What it is is bearly 1cm away - which I agree completely is not ideal - and hard to see in the pics. The reason being is the low profile fan I wanted is no longer available. Its replacement is slightly deeper and wouldn't leave enough room between it and the engine pullies. Believe me when I say I was not impressed when it came back like this 'without' my being informed prior. And yes, it cost the fabricator $$ for the error. The other issue is the fabricator was moving shop and (I feel) rushed the completion of the overdue job. However, now that it's been done I'm going to leave it that way for the run in. I can:

1. Add a second fan in front of the radiator - which there is room for (as I always considered putting one there.)
2. Remove the shroud completely and use different fan mounts.
3. Both of the above. Which, knowing me, is exactly what I'd do if there are heat issues.

Funny thing is, my Rotary performace shop feel I'm underestimating the thermal efficiency of the cross flow core. Me, I'm happy to wait and see - but share your concerns. At the end of the day it's an easy job to change it around if need be, so stressing on it I'm not ;)

Hey Pindrop and bcool, do you mind sharing what tranny and diff you're running? I've ordered a translock from grannysspeedshop with Billet axels, but I'm interested to know what you went with.

Cheers guys - really appreciate all your feedback!

I'm running a Series6 5 speed and a standard Turbo LSD (4.33 ratio) with the turbo axels. Never had an issue. (Touch wood) I don't drag race, or launch at high rpm on sticky tyres which certainly helps.

"Cooling is a huge issue" - I second those remarks, make sure you pay plenty of attention to this.

That's incredible! Your FC is a turbo 20B right? I'm astounded you haven't broken a drive shaft couple, twisted an axel or shredded the dif! You must be fairly gentle on the right foot =) Does yours break traction easily? That could be what saves your drive train from moments of pain. I honestly never considered using a turbo drive train with the 20BT powerplant. Like yourself, I have little to no desire to drag the car. Hmmm... Food for thought indeed!

Re the cooling concerns, we're all on the same page. I'll be doing some work on the car next week. Don't be surprised if the next set of pics show two fans and no shroud =)

Cheers

Hey all,

Took out the radiator and flow tested it. How is nothing fancy, old school trick. Attached a wind speed tester to piece of 3" exhaust pipe about 40cm long. Closed off at one end, save for a simple hole to jam a high flow air nozzle into. Had one guy jamming the nozzle into the hole with a rubber seal, and me holding it in place on the radiators front. The results have me eating a small slice of humble pie. The air pressure was over 230psi - the aperture of the nozzle was around 6mm. The air coming out was massive, but that's no surprise. You guys sitting down? Here's the thing: Air flow measured through the centre of the radiator was almost exactly the same as that in the upper and lower corners. When I say 'almost', I mean there was a 3% difference during the tests.

Okay, I'm an engineer - so what does this tell me? Well, firstly high speed air flow isn't being restricted much at all. In fact, let's call even 10% negligible - because, well, it is. 10% is the difference between your car running at 55 instead of 50 - 110 instead of 10. These two differences do not equate in an overheat situation. In fact, my previous thought of putting a fan between the radiator and intercooler may possibly cause more restriction that heat it will help dissipate. In motion at any modest speed, the fans are redundant. When in traffic, they are gold. So the question, will adding a 2nd fan be beneficial in all but the most bizarre circumstances? My gut has me thinking no. Moreso, the restriction the fan will cause in front of the radiator is more likely to cause a problem than prevent it.

I have an assurance from the rotary shop that should the car have a cooling problem, they'll fix it at no charge. I can't argue with that. So, for now, I'm flagging the issue of cooling my ride as covered, pending heavy load testing.

Will definitely keep you all posted!

Cheers

Yes, Single Turbo 20B.
I don't drive the car on the street (only circuit, hillclimb, motorkhana) etc. So I am usually running some nice semi-slicks (not during motorkhana of course) and it hooks up very well. The turbo I am running is not massive, so power/boost does not come on like a light switch which helps keep traction out of corners etc.

I have had the car (within this power train) for over two years now and have competed in a tonne of driving events and never broken a driveline component. Lets hope it stays that way :)

Cheers

Thanks mate. Truly, colour me surprised!

I wonder what would happen if I only replaced the dif centre with a Kaaz 1.5 way for a while? Personally I think I'd break a dif couple/ uni joint, but the centre alone a hell of a lot cheaper than dropping in a Granny's and drive train. Honestly, I'm happy to do it if only as an experiment. The Granny's is on its way regardless, but it's not a super cheap option from start to finish. If I kill a uni or twist a drive shaft, at least other members will know what will and won't work - and I love experimenting ;)

Cheers!

I didn't realise the FD was a tighter fit. Is that the only reason, or are their handeling and weight distribution advantages also?

Cheers

looks awsome

Thanks man - appreciate the compliment =)

She's at the panel beaters atm. New rear wing, rolling rear guards, touching up a little wear and tear, minor rust repair (before it became major) and reverse bonnet scoop for breathing. Well, that was the plan, but the sunroof is rusting also - what a surprise. So getting that repaired properly also - what they hey, it's only money! rofl!

I thought of and still thinking of a 20B swap in the future just a stupid question for all having cooling issues!!! Would V mount setup be better for cooling. Just food for thought. Thats the way I'm going for my 6 port set up till I either got 20B or 13B RE!!!

I've never driven a 20B in my life. Mine will be the first one. But everyone tells me the same thing - it's a life changing moment - chalk and cheese to a 13B. What can I say? I'm excited =)

I think it all comes down to space, and what you can do with it. In my case (because I chose not to move the engine and gearbox back), space was limited. No matter how I mapped it (I used cad and about a trillion measurements.) My best option was always to use the large X flow 3" core radiator and a 5" intercooler - which runs top to bottom. Remember the oil cooler is yet to come and will sit in front of the intercooler, and the air con condenser will sit to the far side of the bay front also. If I were to lean all that, I run out of room real quick and have to compromise sizing. Inside the standard nose, you have a small amount of room at the front (unless you go for the Intercooler With A Car Attached look - which I don't like.) So it made sense to place the most critical component first (oil cooler), which leaves the biggest area (in the centre) for the very large intercooler, then the semi standard area for a large core X flow radiator. The car has water injection above 8pi, so I am not concerned about a little heat soak from the oil cooler, and the radiator is large with a huge hi-flow fan.

Will I still have cooling issues? It's possible - to be honest I don't know for certain. Time will tell for sure. Bottom line is I don't have room for a larger radiator, and what I have should be enough. Worst case, if it's not, I have room for a wide (if not tall) 2nd radiator which can sit above the oil cooler. Of course I'll need to open up the front to let more air in if that's the case - which I don't want to do, but it is an option.

The car comes back from the body shop Monday - new wing fitted, guards rolled and lipped, re-painted rear end and rear guards. Reverse bonnet scoop will be done by end of next week (was needed as bonnet wouldn't close even with spacers and the struts removed.) That's fine by me, will help get heat out and air in (from the front), so all good.

Here are some pics from before she went into the body shop. 18x9's are fitted also.

Enjoy!

Hey all,

Finally got the new wing on, guards rolled and lipped, and the rear half of the car re-painted where needed. Sunroof and bonnet (with reverse scoop) are expected by the end of the week. Loving the look of the wing. Functional without being huge, and well within spec for engineering :)

Had to make a change to the screamer; Now it will go from the gate to the DP just before the cats. Once made (this week fingers crossed) it, the DP, exhaust turbine and the exhaust manifold go for ceramic coating. Going black in and out. Intake's are polished Aluminum, all exhaust system is black. So silver and black - nice balance =)

Enoy the pics!

Cheers

Hiya all,

Quick update -

Thermal coating done, was overdue, but has been done very well. Pics coming in the next few days.

Fuel rail, piping - easy stuff and coming along. Working on exhaust system currently. Am running one resonator before the dual high flow cats, then Y split to twin pipes and exhaust mufflers.

Biggest delays now are all electrical - meaning I need a decent auto electrician who can work well with perfornance projects. Patience grasshopper... Argh...

More pics soon!

The project looks great!! I have wanted to put a 20BT in an FC since the day I found out about these engines....Jan-Feb it will be a reality for me......I have a red s5 just like your car that I will be putting the 20BT in.....I am glad that you have put up all of this information so other people can get an idea of what it takes to make this a reality.....I am not looking forward to the downtime, but I know it will be worth it...I am planning on building this car into a full drag vehicle(still debating).....Debating fully tubbing the car or not.....Anyway, I don't want to take the attention away from you...It's great to see you are doing this and I can't wait for that engine to fire up!! Please post videos or links to videos....That car is going to be a beast!!!!

Hi man,

Thanks so much for the kind words, very much appreciated!

So we'll have 20B twins? Brilliant =) I love the look of the FC, I really do. Not taking anything away from the gen 3's looks and following, but it wasn;t the "look" I personally was after. I would have put the 20B into a 1st gen car, except a) it's not legal here, and b) the series 5 handles better =)

If you;re going to drag your FC then your job will be a lot easier than mine. Everywhere I had to be conservative, you can just go for it, but you know this already =) I did consider mini-tubbing mine, but as a street car there's no point. As things are currently, I'd have to put in a half cage to run a 9", and seriously said, I don't want to have to run a 9". Too heavy for a start. So I'm hoping my Kaaz centre experiment will pay off =)

You have to let me know what times you end up running - my guess is 9's for sure. By the way, what apex seals are you going to run? The ones we make locally are purpose built for abormally high use. They can survive lean outs and nitrous back fires without breaking, and have a replacement warranty. PM me in you would like more info.

Hoping to get those new pics tomorrow - fingers crossed!

Hey, make sure you post your project - will love to see it grow. As I was told prior to posting mine, these things never get old!

All the best!

Two steps forward one step back... At least it feels that way...

STILL waiting on the damned oil cooler! Not a happy camper, but wtf does one do...

The good news:

The bonnet is back and on the car - and may I say looks fanbloodytastic!! You have to look twice to even see it's been modified - and from the front it hardly stands out at all. Very standard looking - the exact desired result!

The custom exhaust system has been tacked into place for fitment and approval. With one modification I've signed off on it and it will be finalised this week. Basically we have: 4" dump going to two 3.5" cats, then 3.5 to 2.5 Y splitter. Then one resonator per exhaust channel and a very large baffle, which is so large to A) allow flow, and B) muffle the roar - to do both, you need big. All are mild steel and stainless painted black. All inners are stainless steel, no fiberglass fillers have been used. There is enough room to add another cat, or another muffler (see the pics) - this is a decision that will be made once the car is tested for emissions and noise compliance. Don't get me wrong, I want a 20B to sound like a 20B, not a V6 passenger car, but it has to be at least close to legal or I'm just asking for trouble. Why two cats, or maybe three? Well, first emissions offence in Australia is $2K, next is 30 - I shit you not. So yeah, if I have to run 3 cats, I will!

The ceramic coating has been done and done well. It's exactly what I wanted. Hard to see though, and yes I did the turbo housing inside and out to prevent heat soak and cast iron life shortening rapid temp changes. For the record, there is little to no performance value in ceramic coating the exhaust turbine. True, keeping heat in there is important to continue the expanding gas process, but the duty cycle of gas in the turbine is so short, the concept of performance gain is all but null and void. The benifits or ceramic coating the exhaust manifold, on the other hand, are noteworthy and recommended to all - hotter gasses travel faster - faster gasses make turbines spin faster and sooner. Remember though, if your coater says they can do the insode the same colour as the outside, question what the heat rating of the product is. It's well noted that adding a colour to the ceramic coating product reduces the heat resistance. Eg: Off-Wite (which is the native ceramic product) has the highest heat rating. Black has a significantly higher heat rating than Silver or other custom colours. This rule of thumb may well vary from shop to shop, as some use slightly different products. If in doubt, ring around some places, and don't discount those who do truck work - often they have been doing it a lot longer than a performance shop. And in case you're wondering, mine are off white inside, black outside. Saved me a 'little' money also, no paint dye to use.

Enjoy the pics!

And of course the bonnet! Tried to catch camera angles to make it visable - from the front it's anything but =)

You're losing a good 50whp with the splitter, if not more.

Just wondering, are you saying that because the exhaust has gone from 3.5" to dual 2.5"?

The area within a 3.5" pipe is approx 38.5"Sqr, while the area within dual 2.5's is 39.3"Sqr, so there's no flow restriction there.

The added advantage of running twin pipes (so long as the mufflers / resonators are correctly mated and high flow) is you receive less flow restriction in each dual 2.5's per exhaust channel than if you had a single 3.5 exhaust system. A 4" system would give a flow area of 50"Sqr, but in that case, and that of a single 3.5”, finding room under the car to place enough sound reduction for a 20B is tough, though I have seen it done - at the cost of HP at high revs due to flow restriction. The reason why is back pressure; the more you have, the less HP you'll develop, although your power curve will show more mid range – only to a certain point of course.

The simple science is this, reduced flow restriction = increased potential HP. So if this was a race car only, then I'd have as little flow restriction as possible and wouldn't care less about the noise. But I have to consider noise generated, whilst maintaining as little flow restriction as possible - which is why I went for a setup that offered less flow restriction than a single exhaust, noting baffles required to keep it to the same noise levels.

Cheers

With a turbo car, you do not lose midrange with a bigger exhaust. You actually get better response and turbo spoolup which means more power sooner the more you open it up. That old theory only works for NA's. All the backpressure tuning is between the turbo and the engine (manifold piping size and turbine A/R and size). The ideal setup is nothing after the turbo at all.

thewird

Hey man, thanks for the post!

I completely agree (well, 99% completely =). I was referring to pre boost, in the sentence I think you're referring to - which is why I said 'only to a certain point'. It was something unexpected I found on my 13bt when I had to add more noise restriction. I lost top end (expected), but gained a little area under the curve before the turbo had spooled up. It wasn't a lot, and I'm not recommending anyone add restriction to gain power (that's reverse logic ;). Like I said, if my S5 was a race car I'd have as little exhaust restriction as possible - or a 4 inch dump going out the side =))

Cheers!

There was another reason for your spool improvement. Having a bigger exhaust will improve your spool as there there will be no restriction after the turbo making it spool up faster. Adding restriction will lag the turbo to get going.

thewird

Hi again,
One of us has had a long day - no wait, we both have =)

I agree with the above, except I gained mid range when I added an extra muffler to the mix. The gain came before the car was on boost - and actually got to being on boost quicker, but lost out big time on top end. It's a 13BT with an almost standard 'T', so I don't expect a rocket ship. Still, she puts those wrx's to shame without much ado - except in the corners (dammit.)

Just picked up Novembers Fast 4's and Rotaries (in Australia) only to see a Series 7 13BT running 500RWKW's. Easy I hear you (and about a hundred others say - which is true), but it's being described as a daily driver running no more than pump fuel and a meth/water injection kicker. Doing that power isn't the hard bit with big ports and a single spinner, but I'd love to see the curve and where the power actually comes on tap. Still impressive numbers though =)

Cheers

wait, did i read right or my eyes are playing tricks on me.. did you just say that in Australia the first emissions offence is $2K and the next is 30k?!?!?!?

Sadly yes, unless the rules have recently changed. We have a State and Government body that can pull you over and do a spot check, not cops ether. They are the EPA and they can seriously screw up your budget. It's no joke (unfortunately.) I know of a few people who have been done twice and it's seriously bad times. Basically, if you're done once and fail the test, you do whatever you have to do to make sure you're not going to get done again (in the same car.) It's a seriously screwed up system that is desperately in need of review, but yeah, to the best of my knowledge it's current and "often" enforced. For example, there's a suburb west of Sydney called Penrith, and it has (like every other suburb in the world - or so it seems) a Maccars there. It's wildly known as a spot to take your hoon mobile on a Friday and Sat night. Even if just to show it off. When leaving, or driving in the area, you can almost bank on being pulled over and be tested for everything from a to z - and god help you if you have multiple things which don't comply without an engineers certificate to back you up - and even then, if the engineer has cut you a break on say your wheel sizes, rest assured the authorities both a) Won't, and B) Will go after the engineer and either fine him, and/or suspend his license.

This is why I'm being so friggin anal and careful about this project. I want it to go, look good and sound great - that's what we all want right? But I have to do it by their rules or face the very real risk of having fines laid neatly in my hand, or even have it impounded if there is an issue they consider to be serious enough.

I'll contact the RTA monday to confirm offence penalties. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. but I won’t be wrong by much. It's a serious, though not funny, joke here...

What!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
 

I am surprised(bigtime) that there has not been riots/rallies to over-turn those regulations....That is insane...Fine someone 30k(i think I read that right?) for a second offense? Impound the car if it's out of regulations? I don't mean to be offensive, but what the hell is going on over there????

Zero offence taken - I'm hearing you =)

I have to admit I've been slack and completely forgot to call the rta and clarify the regs.
A friend of mine also thinks I'm confusing the epa rules slightly. He thinks the penalties I flagged are if you are caught without a cat, or a non functioning one (1st and 2nd offence.) So I may be arse about re the 2 and 30k fines - however the impounding and Very steep fines for unengineered modified cars (or wrongly engineered modified cars) is without doubt. Sadly I have two friends who have suffered this fate =(

On a slightly political note (please God don't let this post become political) our local members of pariment have been written on the severity of the fines - only to be told they are fair noting we have a drag strip in Sydney to enjoy. Like it all makes it better. Sigh...

Anyway, I'll get onto the rta tomorrow for sure and post the results.

back to my car for a moment (hehehe) - Exhaudt is done, oil cooler finally appeared from PWR and I'm now doubly pissed at them. I ordered a custom job without branding. They gave me a custom job With branding. Dumb shits. Anyway, I've asked my local panel beater to remove and re-spray for me. I could get a replacement from pwr, but I don;t want to wait another month for the tools to make one. First one was wrong (1 month gone), 2nd has branding... I want this car finished and cant afford another delay...

Next if finding an ac condensor to fit in the space left, then send it to the sparky for re wiring and ecu fitment.

I was hoping it would be finished by Christmas, but I don;t think it's going to happen... Thank the big guy I have other toys to play with =))

Cheers!

Well it's been a while!! That would be because finding a competent auto electrician was initially extremely difficult, then it would prove a tool in a professionals clothing.

I'm not naming names, but will say this: Know the sparky you are going to use well before you use him. I went of a professional recommendation, and it turned out to be a nightmare.

Right now I have a car with electrics three quarters done, but no real idea what has and hasn't been done - such is the level of professionalism shown. The sparky estimated at a week and a half - which I took at two weeks straight away. He also quoted on a "job". The quote was finite and documented - and he gave this quote AFTER he examined the car and the requirements.

First of all he started crying poor. 'I under quoted the job badly' - was the first excuse he gave. Well, let's look at that. $2600 for ecu wiring, engine bay clean up, and new location for battery. Added to that was the air con condenser, wiring and gassing. Under priced? Ah, that would be a 'no'.

Next he said he didn't have time to finish it (this was at the week 3 mark), but promised to have it done by the following Wednesday, or at worst that Friday. Was an in person promise. Was it kept? That would be a 'Hell No!' A week after the 'promised' deadline, I started imposing $100 per day penalties. Then the threats came - and that was my breaking point. I had the car collected that day. Since then he hasn't been contactable, which doesn't really bother me as he hasn't been paid in full either. The balance of uncompleted works will be taken off his quote and paid - but you wouldn't believe the works left undone. Every few days we find another unconnected and unlabeled cable. Anyone who knows how many come out of the Wolf V5 ecu will know the problem were are facing in redoing someone Else's crappy work. Anyway, life goes on!

Around the above debacle the exhaust system has been welded up and heat coated. Looks nice, pics will follow shortly! Also had the custom front sway bar made up and is now on the car. Went with 27mm - though it was a hard choice between 27 and 25. 25 would have lead to a tad of oversteer, and 30 would have lead to noticeable understeer. So 27 was a fairly easy decision, noting a 20BT will be prone to oversteer without much effort at all as it is. I haven't changed the rear bar yet. But I'm looking at a 17 or 19 when I do. I want the car on the road for a while before I start making too many suspension changes. The front bar had to be done as the original doesn't fit without moving the engine back (which I didn't want to do.) I've priced up a good package in theory using Koni's all round with variable rated springs. Seriously though, my final decision will depend on both ride and research.

A turbo limo diff fell into my hands as if from divine intervention. it isn;t on yet, and probably won't be until the running in period is at an end, but it saves the need for a Kaaz centre (for the time being) and from what I've heard, will be strong enough for road and track use - but not drag. The idea of the 8.8" diff from Grannies is still an option. But for now it's not going to be used - unless needed. Why do this? Why not go with the strongest option day one? A few reasons...

A) Weight. Adding the Grannies kit to the rear will add over 80kg's to the rear of the car. If I can avoid that I certainly will.
B) Cost. Sure it's a great option, but it's not the cheapest by far - and is it overkill?? And,
C) Knowledge. There are a lot of subscribers to this site that don't know which way you 'can' go, let alone should. Sometimes they just go with a bullet proof solution, that can easily cost too much and be unnecessary. Why am I prepared to take the risk? Well, simply put, it's not a huge risk for me. If it happens I have the resources to have the car collected, taken back to my shop, and repair the issue at little cost to myself. So yeah, I'm all about trying what will work in areas that I can safely experiment.

Another update is I'm not running a surge tank as such any longer. Dammit to hell there is no safe and legal place to put it! Spare wheel bay - ah, no thanks - not unless it was severely re-inforced. And then what do I do for a spare?? Engine bay - same deal - even in a box, a leak in the bay is nightmarish stuff. Rear cabin area, within an enclosed area with drainage? This was my preferred option, but space is limited already (water injection tank and battery have been relocated to this area already) but legally it's a grey area. Even if an engineer certifies it, the cops can still defect it(!!)

So my solution is to modify the tank to take two Walbrough (spelling?) internal pumps, with an added baffle added to the pick up area to provide in tank surge protection. Is it going to be as good as a real surge tank? No. Will it be good enough so long as I keep the fuel level above a quarter? Yes. So that's the plan.

Also I have decided not to run an OMP. I know this is a grey area for a lot of people, but the bottom line here is I trust myself to add the 2 stroke oil more than I do the electric OMP to do its job. The second and very important reason is 2 stroke oil is designed to burn cleanly - without carbon deposits. Engine oil is not. My thinking is to safeguard the engine further by relying on myself to do the right thing, not an engine component that has a shady reputation to do so.

That's it for now guys and girls. Pics will follow shortly. And as always I'm open to logic corrections =)

Cheers to all!

hey mate you on Ausrotary, frist time I've seen this thread.

great build. As for autosparkies. depending on where you are in Oz look up Sim. His a great guys with lots of experience with rotar's and all hidden wiring. I did the job on mine and his way infront of what I can do :)

Personally I didnt want my surge tank in the spare wheel well as well (you can smell them what ever people say and in case it leaks).
I have dual 2.5" exhausts once it splits from the 3". so didnt have the spare muffler well wither. But I do the GP sports kit. So i found enough room behind the intrusion bar and the spare wheel well at the back. Fit a 2.5L tank, fit a 400 lph pump at 45psi so should be more then enough for what ever I want :) and a proper filter.

anyway good luck with the build.

-Anth

Hey hey,

Nice to hear from aother Ozzie, and thanks for the kind words. Yes I'm on Ausrotary, but the car won't be until it's finished.

Sims are in QLD right? Little out of reach, but it'll get done shortly - crossing fingers, crossing fingers...

I've heard of putting the urge tank in that location, and I recently had a close look of where people (like yourself) meant. But dammit to hell I'm just too concerned about someone rear ending me and everything going up in smoke. Am I paranoid? Probably! But I have to feel comfortable right? The other benifit of having the pumps in the tank is reduced pump noise. I drove a twin 044 setup recently (pumps were in the boot - within a sealed aluminium box) and they were still very noticable.

A 400lph pump @ 45psi is the same flow as two 044's, though less pressure. The Bosch 044 pump is rated at 5 bar (72psi or 500kpa) - and a 20BT needs two ideally. 45psi is 310kpa, and that is what concerns me. You're building a 20B also right? I'm a little concerned about flow pressure, rather than the flow rate. 400lph is definately enough, but is 310kpa? Forgive the second guessing, like you I know the easiest way to kill a rotary - lean it out under load...

I'm on the hunt for an internal 400lph pump with high pressure atm - but it's a pipe dream. Wanted to go Bosch, but they don't make one. I can get 500kpa, but only 200lph - it's just not enough. Walbro don't do one either, so I'm looking at two Walbro internals atm as the 'best fit' solution. They are smller than 044's (even though the 044 is an external pump, it can run internally if installed correctly), so are a better in-tank choice. If I run E85 I'll probably need three pumps due to the increased flow needed for the fuel. But that's a decision for another day.

Oh look, it's 3am...

Cheers!

here's a link to Sim's wiring skills :)
http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?t=25273

I thought he was in syd, but I dont know. Im in perth.

As for the surge tank, yeh I have the same hesitations with the location I put it.
But at the end of the day, my car wont be a daily driver so really Im happy to take that bit of risk. + you could easily get hit hard enough to wipe out a surge tank placed in the spare wheel well.... your dealing with what if's.

Um not saying my pumps for you, but its heaps for me. Im running it at 50psi which is 80gph at 12v for me. http://www.sx-performance.com/18203.pdf Ideally I want to run E85 later down the track. Im also only running a 13b-re.
Also most decent pumps will all go up to 100psi. Just their flow drops. You should be working it on your max. boost + base pressure = total pressure required. then work on the flow at that pressure.

http://www.maxcooper.com/rx7/how-to/...tem/calcs.html
this may also help



What you have to realise is that alot of the 044's and warnbro's etc efficiency of flow drops off something chronic over about 40psi Bumpstart has a good excell file showing some of the generic pumps and how their flow drops over psi output.

Also I didn't want to run dual pumps. Their are enough horror stories on here of one pump killing the other (or only one blowing a fuse etc). you then only run on one pump, it then leans out and your blow a engine.
I want the backup of if the single pump dies. all fuel stops then engine stops.

Thanks for the added info - all good to be sure. And, I have to say, it's so good to see people thinking and using this (boost + base pressure = total pressure required) formulae!! It's gold to anyone wanting to safe guard their setup! And sorry, I thought you were running a 20BT - my bad. Your pump setup is sweet for a 13BT =)

You're right with if's and buts. It's all a grey area. I thought about the engine bay, I thought about the spare wheel bay, and of course the rear guard. But damn, the danger down sides (for me) were just too high. Someone runs into the rear, cracks a line, or pump, or surge tank - then the positive gets pressed against an earth and woshka. Not saying it will happen, but I want to safe guard it from happening.

I like the way you think. My fuel pump setup (from day one) has had a feed back to the Wolf to limit rpm to 4000 if one pump dies - I'm using a self made circuit to measure resistance across the two pumps, which will return 5 volts to the Wolf if one stops. If both die (not likely IMHO) the feedback is 12 volts and the ignition cut kicks in.

Both pumps that I'm now using are genuine Walbro's and are rated at 200lph at approx 60psi - exact model to be decided. The fuel regulator I'm using has two flow inputs, which suites me to a tee as I'm using the OEM fuel lines (flow and return) as flow lines, with a custom return line to the tank directly. They are both 3/8's lines which will handle the flow and pressure fine - but will replace all the clamps, hoses and joiners.

Re:
"What you have to realise is that alot of the 044's and warnbro's etc efficiency of flow drops off something chronic over about 40psi Bumpstart has a good excell file showing some of the generic pumps and how their flow drops over psi output."

You're bang on the money here. Which is why it's a great idea to rate your (speaking to whomever is reading this) requirements 20% above your maximum expected need. Hmmm, doesn't sound like English does it... Okay, how about this. Take the rated flow of your fuel system as rated flow 'less 20%' - just to be safe. Which is why I was running two 044's and still running two Walbro's. Hell, if there was space in the tank I'd run three and never have to worry about the flow rate (regardless of fuel used) again.

A note to anyone reading this who is using or planning to use Bosch Blue 1700 (or is it 1600?) injectors. Remember that they aren't recommended for use above 110 (some say 100) psi. The are known to 'not' open under very high pressure. Which is why running a fuel reg at 50 to 70psi (application depending) is typically considered ideal in most circles.

Thanks helps for the incite and links, and again, my bad for the misunderstanding!

Cheers!

A-ha!! It's after midnight and I've escaped from my cell! Well, not really, but what the hey, I'm here.

Wonderfully got to spend some time with the car today. Sadly work called shortly there after. Um...

I want to explain what I mean by all my fancy speak fuel tank modifications - don't look at the photo just yet. But just to recap, here's the current state of affairs:

Surge tank - Where to put one??

1. Rear cabin area? Illegal in Australia unless fully sealed and enclosed with a drainage system to the ground. Sound good you say? Well, I have a rather large water injection tank in the rear cabin as well as the battery box. So um, don't really have the room. To be honest though I'm happy about that, because the sound of two Bosch 044's doing their thing would be noticeable and then some.

2. In the spare wheel area? Um... Well, same legalities apply as the above. Some noise issues would be observed (or pretty damn close), but what about a spare tyre??

3. In the engine bay. Here's the thing - IT'S LEGAL!!! But is it safe? Seriously, hot engine bay & fuel under lots and lots of pressure - do you really see this as a good idea??

4. Okay, inside the rear bumper, between the bar and the rear of the car. Legal - again, but for a road car, is it safe? You see I'm worried about some git read ending me, cracking a line and that positive lead getting pinched to earth, and the next sound you'll hear is WHOOOOOOFFF!!! But it won't be a dog, more the pity. Okay, this IS a paranoid approach I openly admit that - but for a 'road car' I think it's a logical approach.

So where the hell does that leave me??? Here's my answer. I'm putting the two in-tank Walbro's (now look at the photo) in here! As you can see there is an oem baffle in the tank pick up area. It has small holes to allow fuel in, and it's quite tall too. It's 'mostly' closed off by the pickup assembly, though might need a few more small holes to allow for extra flow in. I'm considering adding a second 'outer' ring around the baffle to further guard against surges and sloshing about - a baffle in a baffle so to speak. There's room for two Walbro 200lph pumps, and (per my notes from the above) you can use the two 3/8's flow / return lines and use them both as flow lines, with a custom return being required. The in-tank Walbro pumps have sock filters, then you can use two decent fuel filters on the way to the fuel pressure regulator.
Up side: Quieter operation as in-tank. Cheaper cost as no surge tank needed. Risk of fiery death somewhat reduced!
Down side: Not as good as a real surge tank - it's a street car remember. Loose half a liter of fuel capacity.

Personally, I'm happiest with the idea out of all the other options, and when it all boils down to it, that's the most important thing!

Cheers to all!

mate fill the tank with that fuel foam, forget the surge tank and be done with it :)

http://www.efihardware.com/products/...anks-and-Parts

Because I'm yet to find one that doesn't break down over time. In my experiences (and from discussions with rotary shops) it stays together for the most part, but opening tanks that have had it for a while show little bits in / on filters. If you grab it, then rub your fingers together, you feel the grit of little pieces of it. So long as you have good external filters it's not a big deal re contamination, but with 'sock filter' in-tank pumps it will restrict some flow over time as it covers the exterior of the pump. Don't get me wrong, in tank foam is not bad stuff, but I don't call it ideal either. I'm adding a second 'well' around the first one, a baffle in a baffle within a baffle will be the end result. A result I think will work very well indeed.

Cheers =)

Hey hey all,

A few friends have asked for more info about the Billet Turbo I'm using. The link is here: http://www.billetturbochargers.com/Billet_SB70-GTS.ews and the specs for the basic model are here:

Billet SB70-GTS
(CNC Machined T7 7075 billet compressor wheel)

• Standard compressor options
Billet-SB70. Inducer 70mm, Exducer 102mm,

• Compressor cover options
Billet-GTSR Race cover. 4” inlet, 3” outlet.

• Compressor cover optional upgrades
Bullet port shrouded Billet-GTSR cover. 4” inlet, 3” outlet

• Standard turbine
Billet-GTS. Inducer 81.3mm Exducer 75.2mm.

• T04 foot printed T04 exhaust housing options
Open T04. .68 A/R, .81 A/R, .96 A/R.
Divided T04. .70 A/R, .85 A/R, .95 A/R, 1.00 A/R, 1.06 A/R, 1.15 A/R, 1.19 A/R, 1.32 A/R. 1.52 A/R.

• 750hp to 950hp

Mine has a larger intake and outlet with a custom wheel. Probably why it wasn't cheap at over 3k! =) But seriously, what good thing these days is?? My turbo choice was simple. One that was locally made (for support ongoing) and of very high quality, with specs that suited exactly what I wanted. Although slightly custom, the good people at Billet made me a unit that had an efficiency range from 7 to 24 psi. Normal road use will be 16 most likely - maybe 14. In either case the car won't be a slouch!

Pics coming of the undercarriage ;)

Cheers!

To traction control or not to traction control – that is a question…

Hi all,

A lot of work has gone into safe guarding this build from an engine management perspective, water injection above 8psi, building it for more torque than power, limiting factors to save from over-revving, safeguards against lean-outs, poor oil pressure etc etc. But what about safeguarding ‘me’ from an overly heavy right foot? What about me driving on the road, giving it a bit of boot, and fishing the rear out around a corner – planting it into a gutter, or worst still into something head on? The answer of course is skill – the raw compilation of response time and driving smarts, of which I have it all! A load of rubbish? Well of course it is! Have I raced? Yes and for several a year – bikes, cars, track and rally. So does this mean I can handle anything and can control the earth’s rotation with the magic of my right foot? Um… That would be a ‘no’. The truth is I’m looking into traction control, but more so as a driving aid – something to help with the learning curve of what I’m told will be a very very lively ride – even in dry conditions.

The system I’m looking at is that of Race Logic. Reviews are strong, logic (no pun intended) is sound, and the manner in which ‘control’ is achieved is simple and impressive. Cost ‘is’ a bit high, but so what? It’s nothing compared to the repair bill of a single ‘off’. So thus far I haven’t had a reason not to look into it further. My understanding is the true car speed is constantly measured, as is that of the rear wheels and/ or driveshaft. If the wheels start to spin, even if it's one, the system kicks in and reduces power through either blocking injector pulses completely (so there’s no lean out) or ignition spark. Once traction has been restored the system goes back to sleep until the next time traction is lost – sounds simple enough.

Helpful settings like wet, dry, 10 to 20% slip, and an ‘off’ position, all help to allow the driver to select a setting to best suit the desired result – noting the road conditions. It also occurs that this type of system can aid the driver into quicker lap times as well as quicker ‘off the mark squirts’. How is simple – by allowing only as much power to be exerted to the wheels as can be handled by the grip of the tires to the road at that precise moment (measured in 1000nths of a second) in time. This overcomes wide-open throttle wheel spin, as well as applying too much throttle out of a corner and loosing the slide. The end result can logically then be realised as a lap or quarter time potentially improved for a driver who is somewhat unaccustomed to the traits of the car, or how to manage that fine line between traction and spin – something that is tricky with viable rate forced induction (such as a turbo). One very fair question is; do we need it long-term? In most cases the answer should be ‘no’. Simply because over time people get used to their cars, learn ‘how much’ is ‘enough’, and ultimately find traction control an unneeded feature. Which leads us to my personal grey area… If I install it down the track I shouldn’t need it, as I should be more used to the car – enough we can argue to control it pretty well in different conditions. If I install it now, I shouldn’t need it later – same logic applies as before. So it comes up to roughly a $1600 gamble. Need verses want, or requirement verses waste.

My gut says learn to drive the car as is. It's not my first turbo car, and I'm no stranger to muscel car HP. But my head however says use the system to have fun and maximize the available conditions… Both make a fair case.

Are there any 20B drivers out there that have a TC system and find it of 'ongoing merit?' I’m not interested in peoples driving skills, or general critics of the systems, only if others who have projects similar to my own, also have a TC system they find is of continual benefit. My guess is there will be few who both have it and claim it of ongoing greatness.

Picture time!!

People asked me how I fit things in... Here's the answer - planning!

Intercooler, Oil Cooler, Radiator - not visible in this pic, large - Large - cross flow condenser for the AC fits perfectly between the intercooler and radiator.

Exhaust system - kinda explains itself - but it does look nice in black =) But will it be quiet enough? God I'm looking forward to finding out!!

Sway bar - Believe it or not I went to remove the plastic and the rotary shop guys said no, it looks fresh...I think they're afraid it'll get dirty! I laughed, but left it there for now =) 27mm - should match the semi slicks going on the front bloody well!

Few notes:
* Bottom plug on oil cooler is typically for the thermostate. But I'm not running one, so it will be blocked off.
* Lowest point is the exhaust system, then the front cross member, then the inter, oil and radiator. The spoiler is having a mod made that will be a safe guard against low things - parking lot gutters, huge speed humps etc etc
* Exhaust system has a removable section where the cats are. In a few minutes, cats can be gone, and straight through replaces them. Shame I can use it on track days!!

It’s a moment we hear about. A moment we all hate. A moment that says, we should have known better- but didn’t.

It that moment we ask, what the &%$$ is taking so long?! Why isn’t my car finished? What the hell is the hold up? Well, there typically isn’t an direct answer to that question, just a lot of excuses and promises that seem to never be met. Yep, that’s where I am. Oh don’t worry, the workshop I’m working with are apologetic, but over two and half years is kind of too long in anyone’s language. Sure there was some panel beater time in there, and a few weeks over the years they were waiting for funds, but… The bottom line – why I’m writing this, isn’t to bitch ‘n moan - it’s to educate.

The workshop actually do exceptionally high quality work, but they are not large enough to throw time at it on a full time basis – and rely in part on third parties – which can seriously screw up good plans. So am I pissed off? Want to rant and rave to whoever will listen? Narrr! I may have done as much in my own time as they have, but I wouldn’t have done it as well. Which is the important bit. It seriously is important for anyone considering a major project to understand that if you want good AND fast, then expect to cough up some major funds! Don’t get me wrong, it can be done, but at a price most would cringe at. For me, having it done well is much more important to having it done fast. What does it matter if the car is finished in the originally estimated 6 to 9 months, when it either doesn’t go as well as it could or suffers a failure because something was missed or done on the cheap? We admire our rides – we want chicks to dig them (or guys – sorry ladies), and that doesn’t happen if they fall to pieces, or go like crap.

So who am I educating? Anyone who like me thought 6 to 9 meant a max of 9 to 12! :) Seriously, anyone who thinks this sort of stuff is difficult, but straight forward. It’s not! But it’s not painful, it just takes time, care and a LOT of patience - and there is always a surprise around the corner! Still, we’re in it for the results right?! Well, I am! ;)

Oh, where’s my car up to? Piping and connectors, fuel lines, plumbing, and thermal fan fitment. Turn key is scheduled for next week, but if it takes a tad longer, it’s kewl =)

PS: Previous arsewipe sparky left the engine bay wiring loom 1.5 inches from the wast gate pipe, then another few from the manifold. Sure it’s been ceramic coated, but there’s no way the wiring would handle that heat well! Being frank, it would likely melt. So we’ve put it in a thermal sleeve, then thermal wrapped that, and then put a metal/ fibre heat shield between the two. Will it be enough?? I’m crossing everything – except ‘those’ – that it will! Either way, I’ll let y’all know soon enough!!

Cheers!

Chin up..... making good progress now.

That side on shot (on what looks like) the Intercooler, Oil Cooler and Radiator look jammed together pretty closely. Will you be able to get adequate air flow through all three cores?

Hey buddy,

Yeah, I know... Just painful to be so close and yet...

Re airflow - there's a high flow 17" fan going in - on the radiator side. If it can hold a pice of paper at the front of the intercooler when stationary, then yes it should be enough. Why I say that is simple; The intercooler isn't needed when the cars stationary, and the AC isn't important. Honestly I'm unsure if the car will overheat when stationary, but that's the only time it 'may'. I might need a second fan on the front, but will only if I have to. The radiator is oversized, aluminum and crossflow. After talking to other 20BT owners, I'm far less concerned about the cooling factor when driving the car than I was before. When stationary though, that's an unknown. It will be a suck it and see moment!

Cheers!

Wow... This is looking great, man... I can't wait until we get to see videos of her running...I wish I didn't have to scrap my plans for a 20B... But, I will get to owning one eventually...