Defined N/a 20b semi p-port. 421rwhp
 

Perseverance---

: continued effort to do or achieve something despite difficulties, failure, or opposition :

This is the word anyone in the sport of n/a tuning would learn to live and love. Having no boost pressure, auxiliary injection, or even supercharger pulleys to play with, naturally aspirated is both difficult and also very rewarding.

With that said, here is our most recent shop car results! Using all learned knowledge over the years from my original ITB 20b, the good ol' 230wheel 1st gen "test mule" and many other projects, finally have the semi p-ports in action! Its a beta version, and really just the beginning. No rumors, no theorizing today. Just the findings and results.

The engine setup-
20b n/a, 9.7:1 rotors, CLR balancing, race rotor bearings, stock stationary bearings. circuit porting, and exhaust porting, semi p-port. Dry sump mazdaspeed front cover. Oil and coolant modifications.

Intake setup-
Stock 20b intake with custom sheet metal plenum and 90mm TB. 3 x 35mm individual throttle bodies for p-ports. 9 fuel injectors. Triple staging.

Accessories-
Racing beat front pulley, mazda comp waterpump pulley.

Exhaust-
Custom stepped inconel header, fully adjustable design. 3.5" main exhaust going to twin 2.75" pipe and dual center exit

Standalone-
Electromotive Tec3R ecu, and inductive coils.

Fuel-
ATL 13 gallon fuel cell, Walbro fuel pump, 550cc x6, and 200cc x 3

Dyno Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXzuPuNWpXA

Dyno Charts

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Engine shots

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Car pics

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UNBELIEVABLE!!!!! Great job, the car sounds flawless! Great numbers and a nice big fat flat torque cure to boot!!! Congrats, all the hard work finally paid off!

Awesome!

You guys build some nice cars....your 1st gen, 13b s14 and now this

What numbers did you get without the PP open? Isn't that a new intake setup for the main runners from what you dyno'd in the past?

Congrats! I want one so bad!!!

Wow that's impressive! A real development.

The only thing I'd be critical of is the torque number—it's really low relative to the horsepower.

Thanks! Yes looks like the hard work was for something!

Its made 350rwhp 235 rwtq on the stock intake with a 90mm welded on. Which I found did not flow much better than a full stock intake. Later I modified the plenum the way you see in the pics. I did not however get a chance to dyno it by itself. I will be going back soon to see what it does alone. I estimate 370rwhp.


Thanks! I hear this a lot but its a big mis-conception. Any engine that can hold torque out to 10k is going to have almost half the torque vs horsepower. in fact at 10,504 by law of math, it has to be exactly half. Just like at 5252 torque and horsepower have to be exactly the same. At 241 rwtq its producing about 285 flywheel torque. using 3.9 liters displacement that is 73 ft lbs per liter. Some of the best piston engines (n/a of course) are making 75ft lbs per liter. So the torque is actually pretty darn good :)

are the side ports stock?

shoot i see circuit porting now... too late to edit.

nice man, real nice.

Great Job Guys, Looks and Sounds Wicked!

Wonder how this compares to the power SpeedSource is putting down in their 3 rotor Grand Am cars? They're running Pport motors, correct?

Fantastic Job

congratulations, Logan. i've been waiting for this day. it eclipsed my expectations. i trust this is not over and you'll be developing it even more with time. :)

:icon_tup: :biggrin: :icon_tup:

He,he, heeeeee!!

Fantastic! Seeing these numbers gives me hope that I may get close with my set-up. I won't be reving that hi as I'm not balanced for it yet. Great job Logan. You have really got something going here that will benefit any NA rotary enthusiast. After all these years, it's about time someone engineered OPENING semi PP's instead of the always open set-up.


Edit: Sounds like your PP's are opening just below 4K. Have you tried opening them later to smooth out the transition and improved bottom end? Looks like the semi's aren't really doing much till 5,300rpms.

I "heard" they made 426 to the wheels at a rule limited 8600rpm, I did not see this with my own eyes

(2-15 Mazda RX8 (Prep 2)
2-15.1 20B Cosmo three rotor (Mazda Spec parts). 2.0 liter, 9.7 compression ratio, 3-52mm throttle bodies, maximum of 6 injectors, maximum fuel pressure 4.2 bar, intake manifold is free. Maximum RPM 8600.)

Logan, are you able to close the PP throttle bodies completely so it can idle w/o the brap brap brap? also I see you have a tag, how much driving do you do? it must be FUN!

BigAl...

AWSOME, congrats on that achievement!!

Great Job and numbers

Good job guys! :icon_tup: No surprise though, I know you guys will get more power....

Well, I had wanted to stage them with rpm, but for time constraints they open mechanically. Half throttle is the side ports, and then past that the p-port ITB's will start to open. So on the dyno they are actually open from start to finish, 1500 on up. Torque was actually the same except from 4k-5k they had a little less. For the simplicity and no fear of a failing soleniod, I think I like this mechanical setup. The transition cannot be felt.

The semi p-ports are closed with anything less than half throttle. There isnt a brap, the large street ports definitely give a bit of a rumble though. Even the best ITB's have some air leakage, so there is a little turbulent air going through the p-port at all times.
I do a decent amount of driving. Have gone to a few track events, want to visit big tracks and do time attack and more. With the dogbox its a handful on the street, but I love it. lol

WOW. I could never have expected this great of results, congratulations to you sir. This should quiet up the N/A haters for a few days!

After I'm done with this FI setup for my 13b, this will be my next build. Nothing like being NATURALLY ASPIRATED!

Jeeeez a semi-port engine can make that kind of power??? wooow

Theories are one thing. Taking those and putting them into practice is another.

Game changer.... yes.

Epic.

N/A performance has just evolved.

Words can describe what you have done.

Nice work..

Need to ask why you write rwhp when the dyno paper says 421 on flywheeel.
421 on flywheel is somewhere around 370 on the rear wheels.

Look at the video again. It's a dyno dynamic dyno which reads from the rear axle. Personally I too am curious as to how much power is actually being put down with tires actually mounted.

421 is rear wheel horsepower. On a dynapack you can enter a TCF value to estimate "flywheel" power, so on the dyno there is "power" and "flywheel power". Since obviously I did not enter a TCF value ( see comparison charts where TCF is 1.00) then both the "power" and "flywheel power" are exactly the same. Besides how would a chassis dyno read flywheel horsepower?

It will be around 415-430rwhp on a roller. I have taken many cars from this dyno to rollers and depending on which shop I go to, most read 2-5% higher. And one place reads pretty much identical.

Update: 428rwhp
 

Did some adjustments to header and p-port manifold length. Luckily both are adjustable :) Results weren't too bad. More to come soon!


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looks awesome bro..

gives my N/A 20B hope..

do u guys sell an ITB setup for the 20B? or is it always a local one off kinda thing for us 20B'ers?

amazing stuff. keep up the good work

Did you do the exhaust and intake adjustments at the same time or did you separate them to see where your gains where? I bet you'll get even better results if you furture radius those throttles body at the top and or fab up some velocity stacks for your PP throttle bodies. Smoothing the air flow entry will always help things. I've personally made my own out of fiberglass and bondo. ;) It's great that your reaching your peak at a lower rpm range.

Yes we do, once ordered we will build it. Dont have any "on the shelf". Need one?

Yep, I always do one change at a time. Otherwise you will never know the full story. The throttle bodies do have homemade venturi's. Eventually I will make a "real" setup with actual velocity stacks, and machined transitions etc. And thanks! It is getting harder to control while accelerating, even with 315's. Im happy. lol

how do you actuate the p-port itbs? can this be adjusted to different rpms? maybe you find an optimum opening rpm to maximize benefits and eliminate unwanted effects?

Its mechanical. After half throttle there is a aux cable that pulls open the p-port throttle bodies. I was going to make it come on at a certain rpm. But after testing, the p-ports did not remove any torque open at any rpm. So it was just added complexity and a point of failure using electronic devices. The injectors on the p-ports however are ran by the electromotive, and come on at low vaccum to 0 vaccum.

That depends,

do u think it would benefit a stock port motor?
does it reduce the overall height of the motor vs stock intake? (my bonnet doesn't quite close at the moment)
how impossible is it to tune yourself using a PS2k using only TPS input since ITBs have no vacuume?

and finally of course.. whats the damage gonna cost :p

Benefit a stock port motor..... yes. Reduce overall height..... yes, a good amount. How impossible to tune.... not impossible. The ITB's I have ran had plenty of vacuum to use a MAP based system. But if you want to tune TPS that isn't difficult either. Damage... a good amount :) - $1990.00

vacuume really? that's good news.. I always thought they pulled zero vacuume and were tough to tune... i'm glad to hear that

do u make the long runners the wrap up and over the motor? or are they shorties that point straight up like a carb setup?

2k cover everthing u need to install? or is there something extra?

are the injectors stand off? any more info?

(sorry I realized I'm shitting on ur thread, make a new thread? switch to PM? or leave it here?)

thanks

This is what I do testing for, to manufacture and sell products :) It wraps over the engine, so the ITB's will be on top. 1990 will be everything except the injectors. Price may vary a little depending on material and machining costs. Setup for the standard metric top feed injectors. Just like the FC and 20b use for secondaries. Can be made for american o-ring if requested. You will have to fit a TPS as well.

have you made any before? would I be able to put a box around it? (i live in a dusty dessert climate)

do you have any pics?


you've caught my interest...

This setup looks nice. Is there decent cost savings going N/A 20b versus FI?

Do you mean vs turbo?? This n/a is fuel injected. If you mean is there cost savings going n/a vs turbo? In my case no. I actually think it cost more.

Logan can better answer this question...

You can build a box pretty easy, then put a filter on it. The few 20b ITB setups I built before used mazda race manifold for the 13b. I cut one in half and machined a custom flange etc etc. It was a pain in the butt way to do it. I can dig up pics of it though. The new way is custom intake manifold from scratch. I should have pics of that setup hopefully in the next couple weeks, as I am building one for Christopher. (20b n/a gtu's)

Blast from the past :) Using the old method

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Like Chris said, most likely you will spend a little more. But it really depends on what goals you have in mind. Once you have a semi p-port setup and ITB's with a custom header, the cost is going to be higher than just tossing in a stock port 20b with the stock intake, and making a quick steel header for it.

^ Yep! The savings however, comes in the long term because if properly built, the NA 20b will last much longer and be far more reliable than it's boosted counterpart.

Yeah I keep going back and forth on mine. Should I boost it or shouldnt I? You don't need a lot of power in a 1st gen but I doubt I'll make my power goal of 300 with streetports and stock rotors+ stock intake manifolds and a quick steel header.

It's an early engine #756 so what can I do with it? Keep it NA? Or go for the gusto and get the same cheap turbo stevesimon got from cxracing and keep the boost low. Kinda wish I didn't port it now if it's boosted.

I wonder how much power an early engine can really take before the shaft or one of the plates lets go. 350? 400?

I dont think the early series are as bad as people say. Carlos Lopez has personally taken the early irons to over 500rwhp. And concerning the e-shaft.... when is the last time you heard of one failing? That was a result of shear power? Personally I think 500rwhp is safe on any 20b properly tuned.

When is the last time I heard of one failing as the result of shear power (no pun intended)? Never in recent memory. The only shaft related problems that come to mind were mentioned by Zero R about storing the shaft incorrectly, causing it to bend. Whether over time or immediatly as soon as you lay it down on its side, I don't know.

That threw up a red flag. Honestly, how can a robust, well engineered piece of steel bend over time just lying on its side? Maybe after a thousand years but not in just a few months. He said he stores his shafts upright in a wooden fixture and says if they're stored improperly, will cause the center stationary bearing to wear prematurely which is hard to tell at first but then makes itself known after a while.

The engineer in me can't wrap his head around that one. I probably jarred the shaft a lot more just separating the front journal section (heat with BFH and crowbar method), since I don't have a puller, than anything that could happen to it just happily lying on a piece of cardboard supported at three places. Both journals and the long end are contacting the carboard with no weight on top of it anywhere. Just a plastic bag to protect it from dust.

I'm sure if my shaft survived the separation, it will be perfect to throw right back in the engine come spring time or whenever I can get back to work on it. Heck I once applied something like 600 - 800 foot pounds to a front 19mm nut that someone had locktited on a 76 Cosmo 13B. I bent a counterweight stopper (angle iron) and then decided to take a 1" hole saw and cut (drilled) around the 19mm hex allowing the flat part to relax until it could be removed by my impact wrench. I didn't have any propane or mapp gas at the time. This shaft survived and ran fine and smooth during test firing in my REPU which had hockey puck motor mounts (they let you really feel the engine). This engine is now in my rotary baja project just waiting for a few things before I can drive it.

Carlos Lopez is awesome. I talked to him a few years ago and he recognized me from my website. That was pretty cool. This is before forums really took off. Anyway you guys both have a lot more 20B experience than me, and if he's done over 500rwhp, and you say it should be safe if properly tuned, then 500 is my new goal. :) I was just going on what everyone around here (this forum) says about the early engines; they're weak, only run them NA or low boost etc.

You know, with my port job, I think 500 will be achievable at 14psi. The ports look like a Judge Ito/Rice Racing/Blake Qualley job. Similar closing shape and similar opening timing. I could close them a little later like a typical Judge Ito/Rice Racing port, but with boost, the power is in the turbo and not so much just in the ports. Blake was doing a lot more NA work, but mine open similar to his and Rice's at 11.3mm (primary) and 10.9mm (secondary) from the coolant seal groove.

Thanks. Your post has really helped me out. :)

Aren't all rotaries fuel injected? With FI I mean forced induction.

For my build I am looking to go no higher than 20-25k for the engine. A forced induction 20b would barely squeak in there if built by a shop. If a n/a 20b costs even more, it would cost too much for me.

I agree here, that's why I am so interested. For my build, I am still up in the air on a 20b versus a built LS7 (hide's behind computer screen to dodge flying tomatoes). For around 20k I can get a Katech built LS7 with about 550rwhp and 500rwtq, but it just doesn't have the uniqueness, killer sound and high-rev fun as a 10k rpm n/a 20b. While the rwhp of this killer n/a 20b posted here is nice, the rwtq is only about half of a good LS7 setup. Not to make this a versus thread, but it's a hard decision!

^ The N/A 20B is honestly just something you have to want, all for illogical reasons. Dollar for dollar, you aren't going to even come close to the LSx engine for power output. Logan and others have made incredible progress lately on this front, but as we all know 450-500whp from even an LS1 is only a cam and heads upgrade away. As you said, the sound, feel and uniqueness of the 20B is what lures the few of us in, but in racing and to be financially sane, none of that really matters.

$20k will just buy the LS7 katech engine. Are you looking to spend 20k on the engine only or the entire swap? I am sure you realize 20K will not get you close on a LS7 full swap. Not just any 20b n/a can go to 10k. There is a ton of mis-understanding in this area. The cost goes WAY up in price for a 20b that redlines at 8500 and one that can go to 10k. The price is so much higher due to these three factors- apex seals must be ceramic ($2000) New housings are needed instead of used ones for the ceramic seals ($1800) and finally a Drysump front cover/ system must be used to supply oil that high in rpm ($4000). But if you are looking to spend $20k on a engine, then the 20b n/a is way cheaper. Even one built to 10,000rpm spec just like mine. Oh, and its torque to the tire that matters, and how long that torque takes place. Horsepower and average power in the shift range is what wins. Anyone that doesn't believe that can ask themselves why in japan there is 300hp class and 500hp class. No mention of torque. Even in nasa they place you in classes based off hp/ weight. Not tq/weight. With that said, the LS7 is a fantastic engine. I say the only solution is to build both ;) and then give me a ride damn-it! lol