Where is this oil coming from?
 

Did a little cruise around town in my newly acquired 83, filled up, and decided to pop the hood when I got home when I noticed this oil. Where is it coming from? How concerned should I be?

http://i53.tinypic.com/2epst9t.jpg

hard to tell really. the oil looks somewhat clean which makes me think at forst that it was spilled when added. do you notice any other place that its leaking oil? the main concern is a faulty o-ring between the side housing and the rotor housing. this will cause oil to seep out and puddle in the dip where the 12A engine code is cast into the housing.. clean it off really well and drive it and see if you get the same puddling. if not we can look elsewhere. look around the upper front cover area for any leakage.

If I don't say it, somebody else will. That's what people call the leak of death. Sounds scary but it's not. All it is is a leak coming from the o-ring up under where it says Mazda 12A to the left and right (where side plate meets housing). There's an o-ring on each side that gets hard with age and heat from the beehive and no longer seals perfectly resulting in a little puddle of oil where you see it.

The engine can run for years like this but it's best to plan to do a quickie rebuild as soon as practical for your budget. Good time to start learning the basics like purchasing a rebuild video (the Atkins or Mazdatrix ones are good I hear). Or start looking for another 12A to swap right in so the car is down for just a short period of time, and then you'll have a nice opportunity to tear down and rebuild your 12A. :) Or look for a 13B, but 90% of what you'll find out there are the modern fuel injected ones making simple installs in a first gen more complicated. I prefer the old school carbed 13Bs personally but anyway you'll need at a bare minimum a GSL-SE oil pan and maybe a 12A front cover depending on where the engine came from (2nd gen front covers and oil pans are a whole lot different). Reason is our engines mount on the front and 2nd gens mount on the intermediate plate. FDs mount on the rear plate. You'll also require a Racing Beat front mount bar which allows the slightly longer 13B to fit without hassles. That 20mm length difference (3/4") doesn't sound like much, but it is when you're installing an engine.

You've got plenty of time to plan your next move. The leak of death really means the leak of opportunity. These cars are so easy to work on compared to everything else out there you'd be doing yourself a favor and learning to do an engine swap all at the same time. :)

Cleaned it off and drove it again, another pool about the same size, more to the left of the 12A emblem.

How much does it cost to have that o-ring replaced? Other than wasting oil, are there any other concerns with this leak?

Yep that's the Dreaded O Ring Leak of Death all right. Except like Jeff says, it's not really. An engine rebuild or replacement might be in your future, but in the mean time you can drive it as long as you can afford the added oil and don't mind the oil spots in the drive.

And there are some things you can do to slow it down or even stop it. The easiest most effective thing is to use an oil additive that will condition the seals to slow the leak. I had great luck with this on my first 84 GSL, it leaked about as bad as yours when I first got it and I was thinking rebuild for sure.

But then I tried some of this Golden Eagle Engine Stop Leak and Whoaa! The leak went from drip drip drip to almost nothing. I continued adding the stop leak at each oil change and the leak kept getting smaller and smaller. Never quite went away but I did continue to drive the car for another 5 years and 50,000 miles without any engine problems. When I scrapped that 84 GSL the engine was still running strong.

Another thing I've seen done is, believe it or not, use some J-B Weld or similar epoxy material to seal the leak from the outside. Obviously this needs to be done carefully, clean bare metal is necessary and you need to put down a good base to get a seal, but if done right it works.

Good luck and welcome to the world of rotaries!

Jeff, congrats on Post #11,000!

Try Valvoline High Mileage oil. It has an addetive that swells and softens the o rings.

Would you consider a leak like that after 5-10 miles of driving to be severe?

Yes. I bet it's dripping down off the engine too. Or onto the crossmember.

And you reckon a bottle of noleak will help fix it?

do not add the stop leak.. it could swell the oil control o-rings and gum up seals. not reccomended at all imo.. rebuild or replace the engine.

I don't exactly have $1500+ to spend on a rebuild at the moment, and this car needs to work for a good 5-6 months. I'd prefer a quick fix for now and a rebuild possibly over the winter.

i know it's probably my own bias against stop-leak products talking here, but i'll say what i feel i have to say. i feel a tad conflicted, because i feel like i'm encouraging you to half-ass it, which i am, but i know how it feels to not have the money and be in this sort of jam. however, i'll put this out there and let you decide.

it doesn't have to cost $1500. if the engine is otherwise healthy, all you'd need is a soft seal/gasket kit (although, at minimum, i'd look seriously at new springs, too) and the time it would take to pull the engine, clean it and rebuild. it can be done in a weekend if you can get everything together and anticipate/preempt any reasonabe other issues.

aside from the annoyance and mess, as Jeff said, you can continue to drive the car until fixing it is more convenient to you. if you don't feel up to it, i'm fairly sure you can find someone in your area that would be willing to help. find that person and you can work out whatever details needed between the both of you.

Anyone in the Twin Cities/MN area willing/able to help would be much appreciated. I am going to try a bottle of stop leak for the time being, anything it gums up can be cleaned during a rebuild anyway.

if you need a rebuild video let me no..i will make you a copy...

you'd probably be best served posting that in your Regional forum.

Here's the stuff I used Gamah that fixed a leak that looked a lot like yours:

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h...en/noleak1.jpg

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h...en/noleak2.jpg

Like I said, it cut a drip drip drip (~1 qt every 3-400 miles) to practically nothing, down to normal consumption for a 12A. And that was in a nice strong motor that kept running strong for another 50,000 miles. Theory vs. practice, if you will.

I added 1 bottle of this stuff at every 3000-5000 mile oil change and used Castrol 20-50W to give the oil a little extra body. No more drip drip. No more big oil smoke clouds at start up in the morning.

Try it, you'll like it. If it doesn't work then you can rebuild the engine for $1500, $1000, $500 or whatever.

About a hundred times more expensive than the Stop Leak.

If you must wait to rebuild the engine find a used stock engine to swap in, then you can take your sweet time building a monster engine to go in.

Know of anyone with one?

PM me your phone number.

yes, i bought one that was so bad it actually caught fire.

however ive also had a couple that i drove for 10-20k BEFORE i fixed the leak. if you don't let the oil build up too much its ok.

i haven't had a 12A rx7 that DIDN'T leak there.

imo i'd try the stop leak, but the Jb weld method doesn't work, ive bought a couple cars with all kinds of creative things bonded to the leak, and it doesn't work, IMO.

the one that caught fire was fun, there was like 2" of silicon and JB weld and stuff on there, the main structure of the "repair" was a bottle cap

Definitely a serious leak. The seller should have disclosed that before you bought it.

And yeah, the JB weld idea is sketchy, but it can't hurt and I've seen some decent efforts. Bottle caps are probably not a good idea.

Still, there's worse things that could happen. Put some oil in that thing and take it for a drive.

video sent....get some popcorn :popcorn:and a pad and pen...class is session...you owe me a 6pack...:)

Its rebuild time! :nod: If you plan it well you could get it done over the course of two days. Good luck with the rebuild. :icon_tup:

My engine is losing over a quart of oil per 100 miles... I got scammed hard. I'm in the process of being forced to quit my job or face being fired, and low on cash. Can anyone in the twincities help me out? You will be repaid, eventually.

Low Budget Solution to the O ring oil leak:

1) Change your oil to fresh 20-50W oil (Castrol preferred). Old lighter oil will leak faster than fresh heavier oil. That should help some.

2) Add the engine oil stop leak, this will condition the seals and may help slow the leak significantly.

These two things can slow a serious leak and make it manageable. Have you done them yet?

I did a fresh oil change today, will drive it some to drip oil out, then add stopleak in hopes it works.

Cross your fingers, there's no guarantee but it sure worked for me.

The stop leak doesn't take effect immediately, it needs a few days and a few hundred miles to do its thing and the longer it's in the better it seems to work - that's why I continued adding it at each 3000-5000 mile oil change.

Good luck, let us know how it comes out.

It's warm out today (almost above freezing!) so I decided to take it out and warm it up proper with some in town driving before hitting the highway and doing a couple 0-60 pulls. I managed about 11 seconds which isn't bad considering I was babying the clutch. Oil seemed to behave fine, it isn't puddling so much to the left of the MAZDA imprint as it is the right side. Could this be a filler pedestal leak?

Also, is it normal for the motor to bog down from idle if I slam it to the floor? Partial flooding? It doesn't bog anywhere else whilst revving, but does seem to occasionally misfire if I hold it at any specific point on the tach. Is THAT bad?

That stuff sounds pretty normal.

Oh crap, mine has the same leak. '83 with 86,000 orig miles and everything stock I figured I wouldn't do anything to it until it turned 100k. I'll try some sort of leak stopper, but if I have to rebuild I know I'll want to have it modified a little.

if the engine hasn't fully warmed up it could be normal. When you say bog down do you mean it looses power and then comes right back, or does it act like it might be running out of fuel? On both of my 83s they had symptoms similar to bogging down and it was a clogged fuelnfilter Change the fuel filter and get some fresh gas in it. And see if that helps. Filters are so cheap it should be changed every couple years.

it revs down and has no power for about half a second, then catches up and revs fine. The misfiringis definitely more pronounced when the engine is cold, but happens regardles of what RPM I hold it at (2k, 4k, etc) it doesn't seem to miss at idle unles it's cold, though.

Try adjusting your accelerator pump (AP). Check out the back yard mechanics club site to learn more.

Since I'm having the same problem and I'm contemplating the oil treatment, fired off an e-mail this morning to Goldeagle, the company who makes NO-LEAK Engine Oil Treatment. They said: "We would not recommend using our NO LEAK Engine Oil Treatment in this engine."
I'm going to check with a few other companies too and let everyone know what options are available.

Have you ever noticed that in today's litigious society nobody claims anything works? Nobody knows nothing.

You send an email asking if it works.

They send an email back saying it works great for rotary engine oil seal leaks (which it does, at least in some cases).

You use the product and something happens to your engine.

Email in hand, you sue their company, whether their product had anything to do with your engine failure or not.

What they sent you is called a disclaimer.

Incidentally, ask any regular mechanic, parts supplier or manufacturer anything about a rotary engine and most likely you will get a disclaimer.

It seems you have a simple choice:

1) Do nothing and continue to add oil and drive the car.

2) Do an engine rebuild.

3) Add the stop leak and 20/50W oil. If the leak slows or stops, good. If it doesn't, go back to step 1 or step 2.

Note: I still run a bottle or two pf the GE stop leak through the first oil changes on a engine that's been sitting even if it doesn't have the O ring leak. This cuts down on the amount of "start up" smoke you usually get with higher mileage 12A's. I've never had any problems with these engines.

Note: I did try one of the less expensive no leak products once when I couldn't find the gold eagle stuff (about $3.00/bottle instead of the $5/bottle for the gold eagle) and it didn't work nearly as well - the leak started to come back. Their might be others out there but you might need to do some trial and error to find them.

Disclaimer: I do not own stock in the Gold Eagle company.

Your funny. Actually I was thinking that maybe they did a search for Wankel Rotary, saw a picture and just assumed. I emailed about a dozen other companies last night and I'm really hoping to get a very positive response. If not I'll probably spend my paint job money on a rebuild. I prob. should just try it based on your feedback and others who have done it w/o any harm. I am just concerned that i'll cause more damage long run and the rebuild will cost more. Is that even something to be concerned about? I mean what harm can it do that isn't already broken? I honestly cant imagine doing a rebuild and not replacing every single gasket and o-ring anyway.

My point exactly.

But maybe some Rotary Guru knows something I don't know about the damage adding stop leak will do to your 12A that a routine rebuild won't fix anyway. Damage to the seals that are already leaking? You need to do better than that.

Tell me and I will change my stop leak habits accordingly.

What I don't like is people with opinions ("You gotta rebuild it, the stop leak will wreck your engine") without any information or data backing up their claims or an explanation of what would happen.

Sounds like something you might hear at a transmission shop. Or from someone who rebuilds 12A's for a living. Or maybe just somebody who has never tried stop leak and doesn't know what they are talking about.

Changint the oil seems to have magically fixed my spewing leak... so instead of rebuild, anyone in the MN area want to help me strip Nikki?