What are the gains from MSD igniton?
 

So I got my exhaust, next will be the Yaw carb, after that id imagine electric fan, but is the igniton worth it?- most of the results ive herd werent so impressive-anyway what are your experiences and any thing else you guys would recommend?-thanks

do as search theres a hell of a buttload of alot topics abotu it. i have good stuff abotu teh direct lead fire or dlfdis or watever the heck it is hehe watever. jsut do a search.

The MSD is a godsend. Faster starts, better low-RPM driveability, better gas mileage. MUCH better cold starts and cold driveability too.

And if you're in it to save money, or would simply like to learn more about it, DLIDFIS is the answer. Click my www button.

I upgraded my whole ignition recently to the MSD 6A, Jacobs wires, 3 new MSD High Vibration coils, NGK B9EV's, new Mazda cap and rotor.

I was not impressed. I saw no difference. I have not yet tested it in cold weather though.

yea i'd say i'm not impressed with the msd it runs nice made the torque curve almost too flat i cant tell by the seat of the pants dyno if its faster or vhat??

For the dollar, I don't think you could spend your money any better. I noticed a power increase but the most noticable result was the smooth climb through the RPM's, longer lasting plugs, better gas milage, and a rock solid idle. I happen to have 2 MSD's right now and one's for sale - I fryed one a few months ago and sent it in for warrenty replacement. Took them forever to get it back to me so I bought another one - that should be testiment enough that they are a great upgrade to your ignition - I couldn't wait to pull that ignitor set up and get back to the MSD. If anyones interested, I have a 6AL for $150 canadian ($100 US) - new rebuild with completely new guts and all the accessories (+ receipt from factory and strickers too!!!). Sorry for using your thread for a want ad but the topic came up and I had to exploit - PM if interested.

I got a smoother idle and a lighter wallet. I took the box off and put it on my TII where it would do more good.

Don't waste your money unless you've got it to burn... if you've got a rough idle, hard starting or what not, replace your sparkplugs, cap and rotor, and set your timing. There ya go... nice smooth idle, good power, without a couple hundred down the drain.

Oh, and the electric fan is not worth it either (at least in terms of any power gain), unless you get something for cheap.

Here's the route for power on a 12A: exhaust, better carb, porting. The other little (but expensive for what you get) stuff is nice, but don't worry about it until you have the real mods done.

After the exhaust and carb, assuming you don't want to build your engine, I'd waaaayyy rather sink my money into suspension mods and wheels/tires, if I were in your position. Those mods *will* make a noticeable difference on the road.

:bsflag:

I was replacing plugs every 2500 miles, cap and rotor and wires every 5000-7500 or so, timing was always dead-on... sure it would run acceptably when warmed up but in the winter it was a total bitch.

Hey, I'm sure it was bad in the winter, I won't argue with your experience. I believe it. Personally though, I drive my car in the summer/fall/spring only. I guess I automatically assume this when people ask questions... in my mind, it's a crime to drive a nice RX-7 in the winter:)

Anyways, that's where I'm coming from - I and others I know have no problems with the stock ignition and I can't imagine why you'd want any better than what it provides when in proper condition (for the mildly modded cars we're talking about anyways).

For a guy looking for power and summer driving, I still say there are better places to look before MSD and e-fan.

However, I'm sure that if what you're looking for is easy winter starting (which is so far from what I'm looking to do with my car I don't even remotely think about it when talking about this stuff), I have no doubt the MSD may be a nice piece.

If you cant start in cold weather and your timing and plugs are fine, look into your carb and choke not ignition. I dont get it. If you car idles rough, something is probably wrong with your idle circuit in the first place. Replacing the ignition system sounds like a bandaid fix to me. I've always ran the stock ignition and never had any problems starting, accelerating, redlining, idleing... even with power way beyond stock.

On the other hand, peejay's taken a gutted stock 12A with his mods into the 14's and everybody else hasn't..........;)

If gutted stock= street ported with a header, and 14s= 15.1 then yeah :)

I know he's mentioned 14's with a goal of 13's before WT was dead. Or was it V8kilr? One of those guys, but I'm thinking it was peejay...:cool:

Why are you assuming everyone else hasn't lol?

RXcetera and I are running those times. Both with stock ignition;)

WT's goal was 14s with a stock carb. Only missed it by .1xx :(

LOL

Besides, this was when the car was DEAD STOCK... I put the MSD on a couple months before i did the engine swap.

The carb was adjusted right - in warm weather it would have a 3000-3500rpm idle with the choke pulled all the way out.

As for winter driving... I *love* the way the ol' SA handled the snow. It was 95% as good as my 4wd Subaru was. Dead-nuts predictable when sliding the roads at 70-75mph (I was taught to learn to slide, instead of bothering to find traction :) ) and I never once got it stuck.

LOL

It wasn't gutted, it wasn't stock (except for the carb), and I didn't get into the 14's.

i can run low 14's with stock ignition. i have not had the money or time to screw with ignition.

jr

Sure, no doubt you could... the ignition isn't for ultimate power, the ignition is for driveability! If you don't care about driveability then don't bother.

You don't have to "not care" about driveability to keep the stock ignition. It has fine driveability, at least in every condition I've ever seen with it.

Define what you consider driveability. I can't think of anything lacking with the way my car runs right now (RB Dellorto, RB exhaust) It idles nice and smooth, starts easily, and does just about everything I want it to. I just don't see why I would want to improve on something that is already just fine.

I don't know guys - sounds like different results from different people. I can tell you this... I fryed my MSD this summer and went back to the ignitor (with the performance coils and wires) and the car ran like shit compared to the MSD. It was so disappointed, I went out and dropped another $300+ Canadian to get another one rather than wait for the blown one to return from the factory. I just couldn't wait - I was so spoiled by the MSD, I couldn't drive with a stock set up. I'll say it again, best bang for the buck (and I run RB header/Exhaust, Koni's and Tokico shocks/springs, upgraded wheels and expensive rubber. The MSD was peanuts compared to these mod's.

What do you mean it ran like shit? Explain.

Dude, if I took you for a ride in my car, I guarantee you'd agree it runs anything but like shit.

No low-RPM hiccups or bogs especially when cold.

The ability to start the engine in the dead of winter and go back inside while the engine warms up, or brush the snow off the car while the engine warms up, without having to sit in the car and keep blipping the throttle to keep the plugs from fouling.

(Don't give me any BS about "the best way to warm an engine up is to start driving it right away" - impossible to drive with a cold engine because the lack of defroster heat means you can't see out the windshield until the engine warms up anyway)

Plus, and this is not insignificant - the engine becomes MUCH more tolerant of worn plugs. I could leave the plugs in for 7500 miles or more without degraded performance, because the ignition'd just power through the crap. It's nice not having to order new plugs every month...

I don't know man... you aren't convincing me too much. I start my car up at 5:20am every morning with a pull on the choke and a twist of the key (coldest yet is 50 degrees though... admittedly not winter), walk inside for 10 mins and get ready for work, and then jump in the car and go. No problemo.

AS WELL... when I stored my car at my parents' house, I used to start my car up weekly in the frosty cold of Ottawa winters. I seemed to think this was a good idea at the time. Anyways, without getting into that argument, I never had *any* of the problems you describe. Sometimes I would have to charge up the battery a little; that's it. I never had to blip the gas to keep the car from stalling, or anything remotely like that. When it fired up, it would run smoothly and nicely all through warmup. So I reiterate that the stock ignition is not an impediment to good starting, etc.

I agree with Rxcetera that the root of your problems could lie elsewhere. Why do you assume that your problems are ones experienced by everyone else (not by me), or that they are necessities of a stock ignition setup?

I agree with you about driving the car right away; I don't like it. It's hard for me to keep it under 4k lol, and I figure I might as well warm it up thoroughly beforehand and avoid the issue.

The plug thing is interesting, but it'll take a whole lot of years before you'll save the couple hundred that MSD will cost ya.

I don't think we're gonna agree on this one. We're all speaking from personal experience, and that appears to differ quite a bit.

The convenience of not changing the plugs (which means ordering a few days in advance since nobody stocks them) every month is great. So is the convenience of not having to pull the plugs and inflood the engine when it's freakin' cold outside. It's especially inconvenient when one had only woken up 30 minutes before, still has wet hair, is running late for work as it is, and hasn't had one drop of coffee yet. (0degF is, what, -17c or so?)

So you can see why I'm addicted to my MSD. The convenience factor is out of sight. The MPG gains are a nice touch. And you still appreciate the benefits long after the $250 price of entrance ($180 6AL + two $30 coils) is forgotten.

Heck, that's less than a set of tires.

I guess it comes down to personal preference; if you feel it's worth it for you, that's really all that matters. My whole point in this thread was to save the guy a couple hundred bucks on a mod he doesn't really need. Contrast this to say, a fuel pump and regulator, which are absolutely necessary. That's where I'm coming from here. I just wanted to establish some sense of priority, in terms of what mods are more or less important as compared to others. Thing is, as we've seen, that's difficult to do, because the value of any given mod is heavily biased by personal preference.

The other thing is, all I'm saying is I think my stock ignition is perfectly fine. I'm not saying that if I installed an MSD, I wouldn't be happy with it or notice a difference. But at the same time, there's no problem with what I have now, and nothing to motivate me to spend the cash.

Hmmm... MPG gains... I actually wouldn't mind some of those.

Oh, no doubt, a fuel pump and regulator are the first things any person should get for a carb'ed model.

The guy was asking about the gains from MSD, I'm just relating that. If I didn't drive in the winter, or lived where it never got cold, my priorities might change. Most 12As do not make enough power to where an upgraded ignition system is a power benefit. However, in my opinion and experience, the rotary's flooding characteristics (the vicious circle of misfiring causing cylinder wash causing low compression causing misfiring etc until it stops running due to being flooded out) are at their worst on cold starts.

I also would not recommend the MSD for '79-80 models that must pass emissions. They shut off the trailing ignition sometimes in order for there to be incomplete combusion, to keep the thermal reactor fed with unburned HC's. In this case the MSD works too well and the thermal reactor can "flame out" because it can't keep the internal burn going. My '80 barely passed its final emissions test which was done with the MSD - six months earlier it had passed the tst EASILY - numbers so close to zero that it was funny.

What I don't get is why I've never seen this flooding characteristic you're talking about. I've never had that problem, whether in warm or cold weather. There's gotta be another culprit here than the stock ignition. Maybe the MSD helps the problem, but obviously there are cases where the problem doesn't occur in the first place. I don't know enough about it to guess much further than that. Just that my RX-7 does not, and never did, flood or act up on cold starts. Although, I really didn't drive it in extremely cold weather - just pull it into the driveway and let it run. I have driven it on fall days which were decently cold enough... and I can't remember any problems. On a side note, I love it in cold weather, because it feels fast as hell.

SilverRocket - You may have misunderstood my point... my car ran like shit COMPARED to how it ran with the MSD. I'm sure your stock set up is fine and I'm certainly not saying it isn't. I've tried both as I tried to explain earlier, I found the MSD to be an outstanding improvement over the ignitor. Most likely it has something to do with the rest of the set up, ie; Accel coils, 300+ wires, and direct fire. Anyway, there's your explaination, mind you it's sometimes tough to draw comparisms unless you have tried both set up's. And I fully understand you are not going to go out and buy this product to prove a point, however, unless you do, you're in a tough position to debate. Later Dude

I gotcha the first time in regards to the fact that you were making a comparison. What I was asking is, explain exactly *how* the stock system runs "like shit" in comparo with the MSD? Just saying it runs like shit is extremely vague.

I agree that until I have made the swap myself I can't make an objective comparison; but that doesn't make my point weak. My point is that in my experience, the stock system doesn't need to be upgraded; especially from a power/performance standpoint. I'm not doubting a certain increase in 'driveability', and I'm still not sure I get what that's supposed to mean, because in my books the stock system exhibits excellent driveability. Or at least, the one on my car does. So again, I'm not debating your experience with your car or the value you feel the MSD provides - I'm just saying that when building up a first gen, I feel the $250 could be better spent elsewhere, unless you already have everything else.

Well... I've tried msd on other RX-7s other than my own and never noticed much if any difference. Neither did some other posters on this thread.

What I think is that you guys have some serious OTHER issues going on that the MSD helps overcome. Peejay, if you're fouling plugs every month, something isnt right. I'm suprised...that whole statement doesnt fall in line with the regular expertise you usualy display on these boards. Gimme a break guys, I've never had any trouble starting my Savanna in cold weather, it idles fine, revs smoothly and quickly all the way to redline, doesnt backfire, doesnt flood and doesnt eat plugs in anyway and it has a breaker points setup!

If your car is flooding out when cold, your compression is probably shot. If it wont start without giving lots of gas and idles rough durring warmup, your choke flap is probably not adjusted properly. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the stock ignition. Sure, MSD is considered an upgrade, just like 13 inch alloys instead of steel wheels... it's cool, but doesnt do much in the "performance" dept.

BTW, like Silver, I run a properly tunned Dell on a OLD stockport 12A with streetport exhaust and a properly working and maintained stock iignition. I have NEVER flooded the car (even in Canadian winters), never had problems with running cold (except when the mani is frosted up lol) and never backfired. The car redlines too easily and does not "bog" or "studder" or whatever. Lest you think that might just be the dell, the Nikki was exactly the same. The only problem I ever had with the Nikki was getting the car to run smoothly while warming up... turned out to be a choke issue.

The flooding is due to insufficient spark. When it misfires, the unburned gasoline washes the oil film from the rotor housing, so the seals stop sealing well. This lowers compression. With lower compression, it's less likely to fire, so it keeps misfiring, and eventually you have no compression at all.

The only cure when it starts misfiring and loading up, is to give it throttle and push the choke in, so it can clear out. I recall one really bad morning where I had the car floored for a good solid minute and it wouldn't rev over 3 grand, until FINALLY the plugs cleared and it started running again.

The problem is rotary specific. It helps to change spark plugs every oil change, and keep cap/rotor and wires in tip-top condition. It also helps to not drive in the winter, but THAT's no fun :)

Not fouling, just wearing out. The center electrodes look like triangles after 2500-3000 miles, and the gap is excessive. That's how much I'd drive in a month...

Choke was set up just fine. It's not something that can go out of adjustment either.

I havent changed my cap in more than 4 years. Last spark plugs where bought spring of 2001. The car is daily driven now as it was all spring. Let me tell you, it get COLD up here at 6am on a snowy spring morning. Even with the minimal choke the Dell provides, cold start has never been an issue. Like I mentioned before, if you car floods that easily, something else is wrong. It could be a million things... from a weak battery, to a slow starter, to a choke mech that's out of adjustment.

Any properly working Nikki and engine will start in the coldest weather by doing this. Sit in car, turn ign to acc, pull choke all the way out, blip gas 1/2 way down quickly, turn key, car starts and idles at ~3000. This is normal behavior for a 12A, even in the harshest of canadian winters. If your car doesnt work that way, something is out of whack.

WTF?! Are you being serious? About 90% of everyone who comes to see me with an RX-7 that wont start, runs rough or stalls durring warm up needs a simple choke mech adjustement and tune up. No wonder you're having trouble starting.

What's to adjust? The linkage arm is a solid rod from the butterfly to the linkage. The only "adjustment" is bending the arm. (This is an '80 carb...) It only had cold-start problems when it got REAL cold (subzero) which of course is the most inconvenient time to unflood an engine. Any other time it'd start right up, no plug fouling or anything.

Keep in mind this combination is LONG gone... :) I only drove it stock for 30,000 miles before I got sick of only 100hp and went street port. That engine/carb combo became a garage ornament in late March 2001 and it's been sitting there, filled with ATF to prevent rust, blocking the pathto the '87, waiting for the day I pull it apart and bridge port it or something. Compression was 110-120ish.

Maybe I'm using too strong a metaphore - the term "Shit" may be a little strong. Let me try to give you an example of how my car runs with the MSD:

I was chatting with a group of 7 owners one sunday night at the local parking lot hangout. This was just after I blew my MSD and I was complaining about how the car idled, sputtered, missed, and so on. Two of the guys walked over and said WTF are you talking about - that car is running smoooth. In their opinion and experience it was - point being, without the MSD, I found the car ran rough, maybe not shitty, but rough. I've got 84,000 original KM's on my car - it runs like new. And with the MSD, it runs better than new (IMO) - smooth as glass and if it wasn't for the header, you would barely hear it. If I get a stumble of any kind, no matter how minor, I'm running like shit. As the miles pile on and the car gets older, my standards will probably drop considerably but I will always run the multi spark over the ignitor. As a side note to Peejays comment on plugs, I run the plat. 2/3rd gen plugs and also found a noticable improvement over the stock plugs - however, when I lost my MSD, I was burning them up very quickly (and they are pricey) - I don't want to open a can of worms on plugs (next thread maybe)but I thought I'd through this in. As it stands, I am still running on the set I installed this spring - no noticeable wear and no fouling. So... we're all happy with our set ups, which is good, but you still need to pass on experiences and preferences. Believe me guys, that's all I'm doing - run what ever makes your 7 happy. Who ever started this thread is certainly getting what they asked for - good advice. cheers!!

There's a few pages devoted to choke measurements, tolerances and adjustements in the 80 workshop manual. The choke setup on these cars is pretty complex and requires vaccum signal, electricity and good old springs to work properly. I've rarely seen one working 100% as it should, but even when "close", most people are amazed at how their RX-7 is supposed to run at start up and warmup.

Btw, the choke flap is usualy the culprit. It's either closed when it should be open (stumble, stalling) or open when it should be closed (hard starting)... usually a little bit of both lol.

Haha, this is exactly how I feel too. Ask Silver, I'm really anal when it comes to smooth operation of my car on accel, decel and idle... you have to be when tunning Dells. Strange thing is, I and many others I know acheive this smooth state by running stock ignition on an engine with 200,000+ kms ;). There is no way you could convice me that my engine studders or misses and so on. So how does it get better than that? Like I said, I couldnt tell the different between a proper MSD setup and a proper stock setup. But I guess that's just my opinion.

Lol, the guy who started this thread ran away crying a long time ago. Why did I buy an RX-7 :(! LOL!

peejay, my plugs have 8000 or more miles on them. :)

My car has gone about 2000 miles in the past 7 months :(

FTR, I just replaced the original coils with MSD's, installed new plug wires and new plugs (probably 50k miles on the old set). The car runs much better now with a smoother idle etc... Given that I changed several things at once, I can't say exactly which part helped. I'm guessing it was a synergistic effect of all the new parts replacing old parts.

I'm gussing the plugs.... 50,000 miles is WAY too long for ANY engine, especially a rotary.

My plugs were in the engine in '96. I got it in '97 with 7000 miles on them. I installed new plugs and drove on them for a while. Then, just last year I put my newish (under 3000 mile) plugs in a different engine to get it running, and put my old ones back in my engine. Yeah, at least 8000 miles and they're quite rounded at the tips (well, Leading are anyway). Not a problem for DLIDFIS I've found.

Nice thing about upgraded ignition systems. They'll fire any kind of crap :)

I started using cut-down Autolite 3923 plugs. I had a set in there for something like 15,000 miles. Pulled 'em out, put new ones in, and detected no change at all. (I LOVE my MSD)

did anyone else yell "dear god!" when they read that???? what kind of wires were you using??? Is your engine ported???

:beer:

Hey.... exactly.

Let me tell you guys, RXcetera's cars run very well. It doesn't get any better. Mine is not half bad either.

How about you guys who are bitching about the stock ignition come up here and go for a spin in our cars? I absolutely guarantee you'll come away with some drastically changed opinions. They'd be the ones you would have inferred if your cars were set up correctly in the first place;)

Once you've driven a car with MSD direct fire, you can feel the difference. Engines with standard ignition feel.... gritty. Less smooth. It's hard to explain in words.