stupid pulley question.
 

how do i ask this with out sounding like a complete dumb ass. iam thinking of buying a Gilmer Drive Pulley Kit. I am removing my rats nest, and would like to keep things simple and run just one belt. i remember reading in a post on this site that you have to be careful when you remove the pulley on the e-shaft. i forget what post i read this in, i cant find it now. what do i have to worry about ect.

Isnt the gilmer drive pulley kit a under drive system?

Watch this video and I bet you will change your mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g9d9G3NaYc

from what i have read depends on what kit you get. the one i am looking at is not a under drive kit. i am just worried about removing the e-shaft pulley. is there any thing i have to worry about. :dunno:
http://www.tweakit.net/shop/images/r...13bt_01_sm.gif


i know about the sound ect. just worried about removing the main pulley.

Sounds like its running a blower.

I think I read something about if you remove the front pully you have to reset the backlash on the e-shaft / bearing or something along those lines.

thats it thats what i was worried about. i could not remember what it was for the life of me. but i think read some thing like you only have to worry if you loosen the big bolt the center 19mm) not the smaller outer bolts. who should i ask to find out.:dunno:

If you ever remove the 19mm bolt on the front pulley, you need to read this first:

http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/pulley.htm

do i need to remove the 19mm bolt to install the pulley.

i feel like a such a noob.:newbie: that link got me even more confused.

From what I read you just need to keep the clutch depressed the whole time you're working on the front pulley.

From that Mazdatrix link provided by gsl-se addict : What any of the above steps ( depressing the clutch being one of them) will do is to hold the rear torrington bearing in place against the thrust plate - keeping it from dropping out of place if the spacer moves forward

aslo, make sure the keyway pin for the counterbalance doesn't come out. that happened when i was installing my S/C pulley, and i had to pull the front cover to get it lined up again! big PITA

so if i under stand this, when i get the pulley kit i need to have a friend or a 2x4 hold my clutch pedal down. remove the 4 smaller bolts and replace pulley. dont have to worry about any thing else ect?

i heard that the gilmer drive pullies play hell with alternator bearings too... truth behind this?

so i did more researching and iam still confused. guess ill try to find some people who have rebuilt motors and ask them.:dunno: unless some one chimes in.

Wondering the same thing myself about this. Was gonna get the setup also

iam just out of it i guess. i was hoping changing the e-pulley would be as easy as changing the alt pulley. if i got this right all i have to do is have the clutch held down while i remove the 4 small nuts and the 19mm. throw the new pulley on and re tighten to spec. is that true , please some one chime in here that has changed there e-pulley and tell us what we have to do.

if you are removing the pulley have the clutch pressed in fully during the entire process. simple.


edit: wat 4 small bolts (having rouble picturing it) think you just need the 19 no?

i think i was confused by a picture of a car i found on the net:wallbash: so forget the comment about 4 nuts.


i was just worried that this was over my head. i think its just iam so scared of messing my motor up over some thing simple.

before i replace the pulley is there any thing else i need to do to the car besides having the clutch pressed in the whole time.

i know to disconnect the battery, and have any thing out of the way removed. is there any thing else i should be careful of.

what is the reason for having the clutch pressed in?

thats the thing i would like to know to

read the freakin tutorial from mazdatrix............

It CLEARLY states that it is being depressed becuase it applies pressure (indirectly) on the flywheel which results in it holding the 'thrust' bearings in place against the thrust plate without allowing either of the bearings to slip and be pinched by the plate resulting in damage to the bearing and ultimately you shaft,

read that tutorial again


"Here is the "bad" thing that can happen when that front bolt is loosened - there is nothing to hold the spacer in place, and it gets pulled forward when the pulley is removed. Since the bearing can't also go forward (it's against the thrust plate), it simply drops down behind the spacer."

This shows the bearing dropped down out of place, between the thrust plate and the rear thrust washer.

You can see what happens to the bearing when the front is reassembled, and the bolt tightened! The spacer smashes the bearing.


thats what happens folks if you do not maintain clutch pressure. Unless you engine is out in which event, you need to set it up on flywheel




EDIT: What any of the above steps will do is to hold the rear torrington bearing in place against the thrust plate - keeping it from dropping out of place if the spacer moves forward.

Yea do not get a friend to hold the clutch in. Because you don't know if your gonna have to stop and do something or if he or she will simply lift off and the bearing can drop. Block the tires so it won't roll. Emergency break then something to keep it pressed in.

st got a email from pineapple racing. they told me i just have to remove the 4 bolts and ill be fine no worry about bearing.

the pully...the stock pully is placed and timed on the e-shaft a certain way but can be bolted differently...If you don't mount the stock pully back up in the same way it came off it will throw the timing off...So just becareful...Im sure the gilmer drive pully kit comes with instructions...i plan on buying the same kit myself...But im pretty sure the gilmer kit come complete where he/she take the stock pully bolt out put the gilmer pully in throw back the huge main pully bolt in and he/she is set...

It won't come off without the center bolt though right? How does taking the 4 off stop the bearing from dropping?

Why would anyone want to use a Gilmer belt for this application? It's a PITA to install, with a chance of disturbing the motor, and it means a more difficult field repair if/when a belt fails.

Gilmer belts are designed to maintain critical timing in the valve train of a boinger, they are not designed to carry larger loads. In fact, they probably fail easier than a v-belt (properly tensioned).

If you think that a Gilmer belt driving an alternator will add eye-candy to your car, you are mistaken. Perhaps you should print "NOOB" in big red letters on your forehead, for such is what knowledgeable RX-7 owners will think when they see that setup.

So is the Pineapple way b.s. or what?? I am just about to change my water pump here today and have everything off but that shaft bolt.

yeah the gilmer belt systems are a pain in the ass to install...are not really meant for street use...look good, but are really mean for short burst like the 1/4mile or the 1/8th...13b_rx3 is running one on his setup...looks good does what it has to do

Do the v-belts, or the dual sheave pulley for water pump with dual vbelts not accomplish the same things. Just curious since even super cars have vbelts in them

The pulley is in two pieces. There is the hub (held on by the 19mm bolt) and the actual ribs/pulley that are attached to the hub with the 4 small bolts. If you only remove the small bolts, there is no chance of dropping the bearings. For the waterpump, you should not have to unbolt anything on the main pulley. If you do for some reason, then only the 4 small bolts. The only time that you need to remove the large bolt is if you have to remove the front cover (like for an engine rebuild).

The confusion came because we were not sure if the glimer drive replaced the whole hub/pulley (worry about the bearing) or just the ribs. It appears from the pic and Pineapple's response that it keeps the stock pulley hub, so need need to worry about removing the 19mm bolt or worry about the bearings dropping.

I also believe that the glimer drive is a waste for a street driven car. Spend your money elsewhere.

To summarize and make it easy to understand, you don't have to remove the 19mm bolt to remove the pulley, just the 4 bolts around it.

It makes more sense to solve the waterpump wrap-angle problem by using a double sheave on the eshaft and the waterpump and using a short belt that will wrap about 180 deg around that sheave. then the inside sheave on the WP is just an idler for the alternator.

sorry for pissing any one off.
the reason why i was thinking of going with a gilmer setup was, because the yahoo belt is a pain to put on. you have to walk it on to the water pump pulley like a bike chain and it can really be a pain to do when your pissed off on the side of the road. the gilmer belt in my mind would be just as easy to put on as the belt that wraps around the alt/water pump/ e shaft.

i found a set of glimer drive pulleys that are round tooth, not square. the square cause more heat build up and are much louder.

so iam sorry for getting on any one's bad side.

Hum I took off the 4 10mm's and it won't come off (main pulley).:wallbash:

Yea I read what was said about the waterpump. Just looked like I needed to get the main pulley off to get the waterpump
off. I'll give it another go without. I could not get to the nut on the bottom of the pump because the wp pulley was in the way.

edit doah: I guess I can use an open 10mm.. duh (kicks self in ass).

I don't think that you were pissing anyone off?? It is good that you asked. Some people don't, think they have to pull the 19mm bolt, and end up screwing up the front bearings. I also have heard that the glimer drives are hard on alt bearings.

Have you tried running a dual sheave alt pulley using 2 belts? Do you have A/C or P/S? If you don't have a/c or p/s, look into an alternator relocation bracket by Pineapple racing. It moves the alt over to where the a/c compressor would be. It makes the top of the engine cleaner and gives more contact area with the waterpump (you only need 1 belt even without airpump). I am not sure if Pineapple is still making them or not. It was Blake's thing (RIP :( ). You could call and see. Otherwise see if you can find a used one on here. It is a better and cheaper solution than the glimer setup.

I asked them about it and they said no.

I changed a waterpump on the SE about 2 weeks ago and the eshaft pulley must be loosened and pulled away to clear the WP pulley, but you only remove the 4 small bolts, NOT the big 19mm nut. Have the engine at TDC with the pulley mark aligned with the timing peg when you do it to ease re-alignment when the pulley is replaced. and take note of the spacer shim so you replace it on the same side of the pulley.

Gilmer belts require accurate alignment and tensioning, and are less tolerant of imprecision than v-belts. Ask anyone who's replaced one on a boinger. Also, they make a lot of noise, which you can get tired of quickly.

Gilmer belts were introduced in the 50's by race mechanics who wanted to reduce the rotating inertia of valve trains by getting rid of steel timing chains so that they'd accelerate faster, and the damn things were put in boingers by cheap auto makers to save money.

no a/c no p/s. i was talking to a few people that run a gilmer setup and they said yes it will wear the alt bearing out if you have it too tight. you have to find the spot thats not to tight and not to louse. other then that and the sound why is a gilmer drive a bad idea for a summer car?

i don't like getting on peoples bad side. i am a welder fabricator and machinist by trade. if you need help with that stuff iam you man. i know 1000x more about working with metal and wood then i know about motor's. i under stand how our motors and piston motors work but, dont know every thing about them but want to.

like i all ways say,i would rather ask dumb question's then make dumb mistakes.
i learned how to make basses and guitars from asking 1000's of question's reading every book i could find and not having any one show me hands on how to make a bass. now i make them for other people. i read my chilton's like a bible. i use the search button all the time, but if i don't feel i really under stand some thing i won't stop my self from asking and looking dumb in the end.

They can be a pain to separate. Spray it down with wd-40 or PB B'laster.

Hit it with a rubber mallett like it owes you money. It'll submit.

Well I learned something I didn't know. I don't think it got to crazy. We just all have to chill a tad and refocus on the tech and not the personal as much. I have used the wrong words many times and pissed people off for no good reason or intention.

its all cool i have really thick skin. i was born 90% def(missing a bone in my ear drum) and didn't have it fixed till i was like 6. when you young kids and def kids can be bastards when they don't know you can read lips lol. any ways its all cool.


so back on topic to remove pulley and not the hub its just 4 bolts and a few whacks with a mallet to break the crude holding it on. besides the possibility of a gilmer setup wearing out the alternator pulley bearing if you have it to tight and the sound(not a problem to me). why else would it be a bad idea to use one on a summer car. if its just the problem with the bearing could i move my alternator and make a bracket for a Belt Tensioner so the load is spread out better.would that help ?

also i heard the problem with running a dual pulley on the alternator thats its hard to get two belts the same size that stretch the same and it can mess out the alternator bearing to(or is that too)

they main reason i am not 100% with using the yahoo belt is because its a pain to replace ect.

Thed Pineapple racing setup is like this:

https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2080...8ee13a.jpg?v=0

I am gonna try the 3L220 lawnmower belt for the main to wp and just a standard gatorback from main to alt with no air pump or ac. That belt is supposed to be perfect for the WP.

thats the yahoo belt.thats what pineapple calls it. they allways have them in stock.

Yes. Once loose the pulley comes off easily. But make sure that the timing mark is pointing at the timing peg on the front cover so that you can put it on the same way and not queer the timing by 90deg or 180deg!

Also, note that shim with 4 holes and whether it's in front of or behind the pulley.

Sounds to me like you're letting yourself in for more trouble and expense. Why do you want this damn Gilmer belt? The standard setup should work if you have new belts and proper tension.

Someone found a way to get two matched belts in a package, but I don't remember how. If the two belts are tensioned the same they will double the unbalanced radial load on the generator and Waterpump and lead to earlier failure.

I'm guessing that you removed the PS and AC to get to this point, so I'd improvise an idler for the PS or AC bracket, put a double sheave on the WP and a dbl sheave on the Eshaft, run a standard vbelt over the inner eshaft sheave, the WP inner sheave and the std Alt sheave, then a new Vbelt over the outer eshaft sheave and the outer WP sheave and your new improvised idler.

That way the only big radial load is on the eshaft, which should be able to take it, the belts don't need to be balanced, everything has a tensioner and everything has a good belt wrap. And you won't be standing by the side of the road trying to figure out how to repair a Gilmer belt. Or how to get the right one out in the boondocks.


I've never used a 'yahoo' belt and I don't remember what it is or why anyone would use one, but I'm sure there's a better way to do things.

And how often does a guy have to replace these things, anyway? I once figured out the easy way to remove all 4 belts, and/or replace any one of them, put it on my Palm for a field repair, and also published it here (somewhere).

Another option, if you're willing to do some work, is to use a serpentine belt. My motor happens to be a Cosmo 13B-RE, but the basic concept will work on any rotary if you can do some machining (and you can). This setup is what Mazda uses on the RX-8. There isn't much belt wrap around the water pump, but the extra ribs in the serpentine belt seem to provide enough friction that it won't slip. As added benefits, the belt is quiet, durable, and an RX-8 belt will fit, in case you need a replacement.

Oh, and as far as the Gilmer belt is concerned, I don't agree with some killjoys who think it's a bad idea. If you don't mind the noise, I think they're cool. And the concerns about durability surprise me. Even a thin Gilmer belt will last more than 60K miles driving the surging loads of a valvetrain. In the rotary application, the belt is huge and it's driving a constant load, so the stress on it should be much less. In addition, you shouldn't have to tighten it much, since the tension is there in V-belts (and even serpentine belts) to resist slippage -- something you won't have to worry about with a Gilmer. With less bending moment on their shafts, I would think the accessories would last longer. If it was good enough for Mad Max, I say it's good enough for us.

- an experienced rotary guy

If you go with the dual belt alt pulley, you can get a matched set of belts at NAPA.

I have had and still have an issue relating to your question...

To answer your pulley question its simple...

Mazda designed our pulleys as two part assemblies, why I have no clue. But according to the FSM the main part of thee pulley, the counterweight section I guess bolts onto the E-Shaft and is Keyed on like a regular pulley on a piston vehicle.

But! The second assembly is the actual pulley part that holds the belt and it is secured on the counterweight by 4 10mm bolts. Index both pulleys and the counterweight when you remove it because you will not be able to properly read your timing otherwise.

The pulley itself is not indexed and bolts on at 90 degree increments... so if you bolt it up wrong, don't be surprised if you your timing looks to be 180 degrees off when you use a timing light.

Which is currently what I am having to do because some idiot before hand decided to remove the stock pulley and flip it about 270 degrees to the right... I thought it was 180, so I need to go back and move it another 90 degrees.

Basically, if you don't give a shit about your timing and don't plan on ever checking it.. then don't index the parts... if you want to be safe and I recommend it, index both pulleys in case you need to put the original set-up on and you should bee good.

Its for those of us with rats nest removed (which im guessing you haven't removed cuz if my geography is correct SF Bay area is cali?) And no air pump to run.

So that is one of the few options in terms of belts to run

Right. I need the airpump for smog. I don't think it needs much power, anyhow.