Should I panic?!
 

Hey group, I recently dropped a replacement engine, 13b, in my '85 se. Before I put it in, I could turn it with a 19mm and arm strength. After installed I put a little marvel mystery oil in the leading spark plug whole, turned maybe half a cycle, now it won't budge. What have I done and how do I free it up? The engine only has 77k miles, never overheated but sat for 8-9 years.

Turn it backwards with the plugs out. It's either carbon locked or you hydrolocked it, either way, gentle backwards rotation should assist.


An aside. If you stripped out the threads for the slave cylinder, and don't feel bad if you did because this is common!, if you use a longer bolt in an effort to get to some undamaged threads, if it is TOO long it can lock against the flywheel and keep the engine from rotating.

Should I panic?!
 

Thank you for the input. So when I try to reverse rotation, the crank bolt just loosens. Is there any way to keep this from happening? Also, I haven't even reached the point of installing the slave cylinder. I literally just got the engine and tranny secured when I had the bright idea of turning it. I rushed it I think.

You shouldn't use enough force to loosen the front pulley bolt. If you did loosen the pulley bolt, there is a small chance that the front of the motor has to come apart to reset the thrust bearing stack. Might be okay if nothing moved, definitely okay if you meant that the bolt started to loosen instead of turning anything.

When you were turning it before, was the transmission attached? I helped a tried pull the engine from his wife's truck after it "locked up", and it turned freely once we got it removed from the transmission. A bolt somehow got in the bellhousing and wedged the engine from turning.

The transmission was attached but was in neutral. The engine I put in had the transmission attached to it. I removed the old engine and transmission together as well. I did loosen the pulley but did not see the front separate. I wasn't really looking for that to be honest. This is all foreign to me as my prior rotary engine wrench turning consisted of tune-ups and oil changes.

I know this is the least of your worries right now, but when you get to the slave cylinder . . . this is a good place to use studs instead of the original bolts.

Thanks for the advice, so in an effort to turn the engine in the opposite direction to free it, I bought a pipe wrench, chain grab, to wrap around the pulley and try to turn it. Haven't had time to give it a go but will post my results as soon as I do.

If it takes that much force to rotate, you will break something. You should never use more than about 5-10 ft-lb to turn the engine by hand. Really, you should be able to rotate the engine with your fingers on the alternator fan.

Yeah, when I first acquired the engine, I was able to turn it easily. When I put it in the car, all I did was put some mmo in the leading plug holes, I tried putting some in the trailing holes too but it ran out. Attempted to rotate clockwise, it turned about a half cycle then froze on me. I'm worried, seriously.

Were the spark plugs out of the engine when you went to turn it over by hand? How much MMO did you put into the engine?

No, the plugs were in but only hand snugged. I didn't measure the mmo, but no more than a cap full in each hole. In the event that I am able to free it, what the heck do I do next? I'm sorry to be the new guy asking all these rescue questions but l really don't know what to do.

I'd remove all the plugs first. Might even remove the exhaust manifold. The try to turn. Like said above, don't go all monkey on it.

Don't worry, I'll take it extra gently.

CAUTIOUSLY optimistic.
 

First off, THANK YOU all for your input,, knowledge and assistance!

Update to my issue... the engine is free and turns now but it seems like it won't turn a complete revolution. At this point my whole project is at a stand still. My initial plan was to simply put this replacement engine in my car, follow the "first start" guidelines, and smile, alot. Now I'm stumped because I simply do not know where to go from here. Should I just accept that I must rebuild an engine with only 77k miles on it?

A little history behind it all, I purchased this car with a cooked engine. The previous owner said his daughter was driving it and it overheated. It too was seized, the old engine, but I bought it because I had a replacement engine and the body is solid with no accidents and minimal rust.

Its important imo, to have the spark plugs put when turning the engine. This helps to release any pressure buildup that would be a result of a potential hydrolock after installing mmo or automatic transmission fluid.

Can the engine be rotated back and forth? I would try working it back and forth from lock to lock with the plugs out. See whats coming out of the spark plug holes if the engine is making compression on the rotation. You may have freed up carbon and its not fully broken down. You could have some more trapped and its binding the engine due to puddling. Worst case is you have a seal thats dislodged. Unlikely but its a possibility. My money is on carbon lock due to you saying how long it sat. I would just keep trying to work it back back and forth. I've used WD40 in small amounts on engines that have sat for some time as well. I put it in just like I do mmo, right in the plug holes. Not a ton, but it has helped me in the past.

The engine will move back and forth, I'll do that and see how things go. I'll try to go a little farther as I do this process. I'll tell you now though, if I have to rebuild, I'll be searching for a step by step tutorial because again, this is not the type of technology I'm accustomed to.

Keep us updated on what you find. Atkins Rotary has a step by step rebuild of the 13B on DVD available. It can be very helpful!

Thank you and I'll certainly post my progress or lack there of. I'm pretty handy with tools but very skeptical about tackling a rebuild on this engine. I'm hoping that I won't have to do it at all.

So in turning the engine back and forth, clockwise, there seems to be a hard stopping point. I understand that it will be resistance on a compression stroke but this seems like I'm hitting something. Adding torque just seems to stick the engine in place. Does this sound like a familiar symptom or you all baffled as I am? It's not making logical sense to me that it won't turn even with the plugs out.

if i understand this right, u could rotate the e-shaft full revolutions before the trans was put on it. and now it wont? did u have to install clutch/pressure plate to the engine?

Not quite, the transmission was attached to the engine. I was able to turn the motor before I installed it. Now it's free but I can't quite turn it all the way without muscling it.

I'd remove the exhaust manifold and inspect. My not be a bad idea to remove the trans or at least the two inspaction plates and have a look.

Crazy question, but when you installed the engine, did you remove the upper intake manifold and dynamic chamber? My concern being that something like a nut, bolt or socket fell down into the lower intake manifold and is being wedged between a rotor and a housing. I will install the SE engines with the upper intake manifold and dynamic chamber removed, but I use wide masking tape and I seal the intake ports on the lower manifold before starting any installation. I'm just throwing that out there as a worst case option if in fact the upper intake manifold and dynamic chamber were removed before installing the engine.

Are you sure the thrust bearing is still in place after loosening the front E shaft bolt? the standard bearing is quite thin...

Of the THREE DVD tutorials I am aware of: Atkins, Mazdatrix and a nice set (of 3!) from New Zealand, of which I bought ALL for my rebuild, the Mazdatrix one was the best detailed and informative for the $$ ($30 at the time). Atkins was OK...

Best of Luck if you need to try it. Like you my total experience previously was tune-ups and oil changes, but I pulled it off (now running with new owner). You will need to invest in some specialty tools: engine stand apter, pressure-testing kit (to be sure engine is sealed up correctly: avai from Pinappleracing.com), etc. but nothing too $$, esp compared to having a shop do the build.

Stu A
80GS
AZ

The intake was off and I did not cover the holes. I considered something may have fallen in there. I know for a fact the shavings from me scraping off the old gasket probably fell in. Are there any ways of looking to see or cleaning out the chambers without taking the engine apart? Also, when the bolt loosened, again, I didn't notice any changes or looseness to other components but I wasn't really looking for that, this being my 1st rodeo and all.

I greatly appreciate all the input from the club. I aspire to get to where I can assist others too.

Take off the exhaust manifold.

Ok, can I also remove the lower portion of the intake? I don't know the name of it. The smog pump feeds it.

You can if you want but I don't think it will allow enough access to the rotor housing. By removing the exhaust manifold, you can inspect the apex seals (most of it anyway)..

Removing the exhaust manifold is the easiest way to see if something foreign is in the engine. Can be difficult to see with the engine in the car however. A telescoping mirror and a quality flashlight will be useful if you take this route. Otherwise, remove the engine and then the exhaust manifold and look directly into the engine via the exhaust ports as you rotate the engine over. You can somwhat see into the lower portion of the housing and can assess if there's damage. This can also be done with the engine in the car by using the mirror and flashlight method but it is more difficult to see.

I'll give that a try. I've accepted that the worse case scenario is me taking the engine out again and having it rebuilt. Thanks for the help!

here are my thoughts on your predicament. the engine will need to come out. you said you've already accepted that, and that's good.

the reason is has to come out is because somehow the front bolt came loose and (presumably) there was no pressure being applied to the clutch when it happened. i wouldn't trust the bearing to remain in place, so you will need to pull the front cover and given your experience, i think it's best to do so with the engine facing up.

while it's out, you can try to fish around the intake ports with a magnet to see if you get whatever may have dropped in there out of it. my guess (and that's all it is) is you'll probably be able to fish it out from the intake because the resistance you feel is it getting wedged in the compression/ignition area. it doesn't sound like you forced it all the way through, so when you spun the engine backwards, it should go back into the intake area. that said, you'll have the engine out, so go ahead and check the exhaust area too. it's the easiest part to see without a special tool (mirror, camera, etc.). hopefully it's just some carbon flake or something and you didn't really drop something in there, but as long as you didn't force it to turn, you shouldn't have damaged anything.

i dropped a carburetor nut down an intake once, but i actually saw it fall in, so i had the presence of mind not to move the engine, plus i knew which chamber it went in. your situation, not knowing if it happened at all, or if it did happen, then where, is a bit more complicated, but i'm not yet convinced the engine has to come apart.

Hey gang, just wanted to update you as to my progress... Not much, I was told to continue to lubicate lightly and move, or turn, the engine back and forth to possibly work past the stoppage that I'm encountering. Clockwise, I still hit a point but it feels like I'm wedging to a stop rather than hitting something. Counter clockwise, it seems to want to do a full rotation. I'm tempted to take it all the way around but wanted to check with the group to see if I'll run the risk of engine damage by doing that. I'm getting frustrated because I expected to be cruising around the subdivision by now.

Thanks in advance for lending me your time.

I dunno. It was turning easily by hand. Now it suddenly is not turning. That sounds like an important thing is out of place. The notion that it will just resolve itself with lubrication sounds aspirational rather than based in reasonable expectation. The accidental loosening of the front eshaft nut and the possible movement of the thrust bearing adds more concern.

Not trying to be doom and gloom, and I know how tempting it is to get it on the road, but if it were me, I'd stop, take a few breaths, pull it out and inspect everything as folks in this thread (with practical knowledge!) have suggested. If you don't do that, you'll always wonder if you should have.

Thanks and agreed that I should not rush it.

Just to expound on my reply, yes the sensible thing to do is pull it back out, dismantle and rebuild but I really don't feel like I can pull that off successfully. Then, the cheapest rebuild kit I've seen is just shy of $1000. I'm in central North Carolina so there are no shops devoted to rotary engines in this area. Ok let's say I had access to a rotary shop, I can't imagine what it would cost to have someone else rebuild it plus I would want to be there to watch and learn during the entire rebuild process. This is saddening me more and more as I go along.

Hey Todd-
you.can.do.this!
I was forced with either rebuilding the 12A on one of my first 80SAs or just roll the whole thing (figuratively) into the river. My entire mechanical experience was oil-changes and parts swapping. I figured: nothing here to lose! There are excellent How-2 videos out there (Atkins; better: Mazdatrix) that walk you thru what 'secrets' there are (don't rely on FSM - too vague, tho good for specs). You need a few special tools, but avai and cheep: rotary adapter for engine stand: $70 (sell if off after), pressure-tester to confirm block is correctly sealed once buttoned together on Stand (Pineappleracing.com sells these for about $70 also, IIRC). Plus the rebuild kit. If your seals are in spec, the gasket kit is about $125. If you decide (I did) to replace oil seal rings and apex, then, yeah, another $500. This all presumes the rotor housings are fine - some wear and even a bit if 'chipping' of surfaces internally is allowable.
Recommend you start with dropping the $30 for the Mazdatrix rebuild DVD and just watch it to see what they do. Easy way to judge if you are up for the task. Best $30 you will spend, regardless of what you do!

'luck on the Build!

Stu A
80GS
AZ

I agree with Stu, you totally can do this.

Thank you Stu for the encouragement! This might be a silly question but at what point do I need to commit to a rebuild? The engine only has 77k original miles. The guy I bought it from took the engine out of a wrecked '84. When I picked it up, it was in a shed but I'm sure over be years, it's been rained on because there is some light rust about the non aluminum components. Also, I saw on YouTube where a guy loosened the center bolt and it jumped in his hands almost. Mine did not do that.

Either way, I'm going to buy the DVD you suggested and study it well.

Thanks Tourki, you guys are really helping me to look at my situation in a more positive light. I feel like I got a potentially great runner in this SE and I don't want to screw it up.

You may not need a rebuild. Do as @diabolical1 suggested. remove the engine, point the front cover in the air, and remove the front cover stack and inspect. Good time to reseal the oil pan if it is leaking.

Ok, I'll give that a shot. Thanks for the suggestions. Also, just wanted to apologize to Toruki for my spell check misspelling their name. My bad on that.

lol, I didn't even notice the misspelling . I've learned learned tons from this excellent group...there's so much experience here and it seems like there's always someone who's an expert on the very thing you need.

Before you tear it down, check to make sure there is nothing in the engine wedging a rotor. A bolt or nut perhaps. You should be able to have the engine out in a couple of hours and then remove the exhaust manifold and peer in with a light. From there you can rotate the engine and check for anything foreign inside of the engine. Personally I would do this before tearing the engine down. You might be able to save a lot of time and money. If you don't find anything and want to proceed with engine teardown then we are here to help with that as well.

Thank you all for the support. I plan on tackling the engine Tues and will keep you posted on what I find. This is a kind and generous community of rotary owners and I'm glad to be a part of it.

if you don't have one already, get this: (or something similar)

If you don't find anything from inspecting the exhaust openings, you can remove the front cover without getting into the rotors. If the torrington bearing is the issue, all that is needed at this point to a new one and a front cover gasket and resetting endplay.

Another tip. If it comes to removing the front cover, find the timing marks before tearing anything apart and mark the pulley and the hub for reference.