should i go for MSD or 2nd gen direct fire mod?
 

as title
it's for my gsl-se
anyone had experience both?
any input will be welcome

OMFGBLACKBABYJESUS@ABBQ!!!!!





















MSD FO SHIZZLE, garunteed hella more spark!!!! just run a single box on the leading side thru the distributor.

i personally think that the second gen coil is about the same as having an msd but like 400X cheaper.

MSD I have it and my idle is smooth and free reving but ive never tried 2nd gen coils.

I've had both setups in my -SE.

I wasn't too impressed with the MSD. It didn't feel any more powerful, and it was expensive... And took up a LOT of space.

The 2nd gen upgrade was cheap, easy and took up little space. I also felt it ran smother and stronger with the 2nd gen upgrade.
Plus there's the new 2nd gen ignitor trick too:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/clunk-when-comming-stop-58983/#post482508
It'll make it even BETTER!

2GCDFIS with tranisistor trick is far better than an MSD.

Is that your final name for it Jeff20B?

2nd Generation Coil Direct-Fire Ignition System...?

I love your names for your ignitions...:D

And the average total investment is only around 50 bucks! Hella cheap compared to MSD option. This is one mod I'll give "three thumbs up". :bigthumb:

Yes, it is my final name for it. :D

I had a long post explaining all the reasons but I'm sure it would bore everybody so I'll just give the basic reasoning. Most of us were already familier with classic 2GCDFIS, and the ATF/MMO treatment/trick. I put them together and viola! 2GCDFIS with transitor trick. :D (I didn't want to force everybody to memorise yet another acronym, nor did I want TT on the end of it because most people think of twin turbos when they see TT).

Then again, 2GCDFISw/TT doesn't look all that bad. It's just the addition of w/ for 'with' and TT for 'transistor trick'. Meh, most folks may not know what you're talking about. Besides, the transistor trick concept is still pretty young. Let's give it a while to let it sink into the general consciousness of the forum before we use this acronym. :)

Lol! Alright... but at least I'm up to speed now!

How about NPKAASG (Nuclear Physicist's Kick Ass Atomic Spark Generator)? :)

thx for the input guys
i thing i am going to go for 2nd gen upgrade

should i go for the s4 or s5?
or they are the same?

As far as I know, the coil with ignitor assembly stayed the same all through the 2nd gen production run.

Why choose one when you can have both? Fire off a second gen coil direct fire style with an msd.

-Marques

can you give more detail?

Hey Ray,

if you are ever in the south bay, i can give you a ride in a 2nd w/ tt car, i don't know much about the msd though, so i don't know how they compare

oh nice i would love to do that

I liked MSD and went with it...I'm very pleased with the end results. Smoother rev all the way to the red line and just looks sweet. I had to go with what the track guys use.

whats the performance difference between the original DLIDFIS and the 2nd gen ignitor one?

Buy the MSD.

The reason you go direct fire with two coils when you get an MSD is so you don't burn out distributor caps and rotors all the time.

Seriously. The difference between MSD and a standard ignition setup (of which the FC ignition is a member) is like the difference between a standard ignition setup and a damp cardboard match in a rainstorm.

someone should put them through a test.. i really think the difference isnt that great.

I did put them through a test.

My car would barely *run* in a zero-degree start. Pull the choke out all the way, and it would blubber around 800rpm and flood out if you didn't tend to the car.

After the MSD. Zero degrees overnight. Yank choke out, instant smooth 1500rpm, can safely ignore car and get out and brush snow/scrape ice/etc without having to be at the ready to jump into the car and keep the engine from flooding. Oh and 20% better fuel economy, too.

There *is* no comparison. A double ended coil is a hair better than stock, but the MSD literally blows them away.

If you're not using the MSD coils, by the way, you may not be getting the best results, either. Standard coils work with a capacitive discharge ignition, but for best results you need something with somewhat different characteristics.

peejay have you tried the 2nd gen coil with the transistor trick (2GCDFIS with tranisistor trick)? and have you even read threw part of the thread concerning the transitor trick? I do not know from personal experience but Jeff20B I think was one of the first people to start doing the DLIDFIS, direct fire system using three first gen coils. (correct me if I'm wrong) and he beleved that it performed as well if not better than the msd ignition for a fraction of the cost. Heres a link http://www.geocities.com/cd23c/dlidfis.html

But after that he is the one that started the thread which lead to the development with some help to make the 2GCDFIS with tranisistor trick I believe he has a lot of experiance with this and knows alot 2GCDFIS with tranisistor trick is a great up grade for your Rx for a fraction of the cost of the msd just check out this thread about the 2nd gen coil and you will see unless ypu have an extra $400+ to spend but this is just my opinion. https://www.rx7club.com/1st-generation-specific-1979-1985-18/transistor-trick-2gcdfis-411312/

I tried the MSD with two stock 1st gen (Diamond) coils. It was like blahsville. A little more power than stock cap and rotor. Then I tried DLIDFIS and low and behold it stopped backfiring! More fuel was actually burning. I didn't touch the carb through all of my early tests, and the mean temperature was around 50°F each time.

The MSD is worth it to some; I won't argue about that. ;)

here's my situation. i have an ignition box coming in the mail, but i would like to give this 2gcdis whatever deal a shot. i could give real comparisons. and i could possibly be a test dummy since i'm running a blow-thru carb setup. currently on the stock ignition i have to run B9ES plugs gapped to .014 to not sputter and get blown out by too much fuel :eek: hell even then it still does if i just floor it. i ordered the msd because i need some seroius spark here, do you think the 2gfdstd thing will work in burning my massive amounts of fuel under boost? i have a bunch of spare fc ignition pieces lyin around :D

personally i cannot see how the MSD could possibly be better than a DFIS, MSD shares the load from coils, DFIS connects the coil dirrectly to the sparkplug i question how there could be a more efficient way of doing things??

Alright zac; aside from the coil, wire up the MSD as you normally would. Yank out your stock coil. Gut the ignitor out of a second gen leading coil/ignitor assembly. Wire the MSD to the gutted second gen two post coil. Run direct fire on the leading plugs.

It will pretty much work the same as FC's with a CDI box.

P.S. get the hell on aim I know you're awake....I'm bored as hell at work

-Marques

You don't need to remove the ignitor from the 2nd gen coil assembly... ever. If you must hook an MSD to it, simply unscrew the nuts at the top of the coil, remove the stock wires and push them aside/tape them up, install the quick disconnect tabs that come with the MSD, and attach the orange and black wires.

Oh, and James, yes, the high voltage low amperage capacitive discharge output of the MSD ends up at an even lower amperage when split into two coils. The MSD's output is finite. It seems to me that a DIS coil designed for the capacitive discharge of an MSD, or similar CDI box, would be better than two seperate coils. It's simple Ohm's law type stuff.

ok, tomorrow i'm gonna try this 2fcSTD thing out... then when the msd comes........... it's msd2gdfis baby!!!! OH YES!!!! ITS HAPPENING!!!!!!

seriously tho, i do want to try both and see if there truly is a difference. especially since alot of people are putting turbos on their 12a's. i should have the 2gcdfis on in the morning i hope and i'll know instantly if it's making a difference or not. there's one main flat spot in the power band in 3rd gear i'm hopin to clear up :D

I didn't think of just moving the wires to the side. I suppose that will do. He could save some weight by removing the ignitors though ;)

-Marques

no it's not! How can you compair stock equipment to what I run. MSD-DIS is the best system yet... Plus the $150 i paid for my 6a has been well worth it. I bought it in 1996 and it has been in 3 civics, 1 supra, 1 jetta, and 2 Rx-7. I feel it's plenty worth the investment. And the DIS coil is only $35 shipped from summit. You can get a 6a box on e-bay for around $75. well worth the money. Your little 2gdfis doesn't give you multipule spark either. I've got multipule spark and wasted spark...

no it's not! How can you compair stock equipment to what I run. You know how shitty those diamond coils are. People see great things with just repalcing those things. they're only like 25k volts... MSD-DIS is the best system yet... Plus the $150 i paid for my 6a has been well worth it. I bought it in 1996 and it has been in 3 civics, 1 supra, 1 jetta, and 2 Rx-7. I feel it's plenty worth the investment. And the DIS coil is only $35 shipped from summit. You can get a 6a box on e-bay for around $75. well worth the money. Your little 2gdfis doesn't give you multipule spark either. I've got multipule spark and wasted spark...
Who ever said about $400 bucks for a MSD. must have been a 7 series dis drag only ignition cause a 6albtm is only like $215 and that's the best street MSD box. IMHO limiter and boost timing reatard. leets see you guys get that out of a 2g coil and transister trick.

Here ya go

I agree that classic 2GCDFIS perfect. Cheap, but can be improved. I don't think there has been any testing comparisons between 2GCDFIS with the transistor trick and an MSD with a DIS coil designed for a capacitive discharge ignition. Hyper4mance2k, I think you're the only person with this setup. If I ever do use my MSD on a rotary again, I'll get one of those coils too.

It's like comparing apples to oranges at this point; it's nothing but subjective opinion because the transistor trick is simply too new. A few of us have it, and those that've hooked it up so far, totally love it. That's all well and good, but what do they have to compare against? Let's get some real scientific comparative data, please.

hopefully i'll have some of that here shortly ;)

FB II - I think you will be very impressed by the transistor trick if you get to check it out. All I can say is that I never would have believed the amount of hp that could be gained through ignition. I thought that when I upgraded to the straight 2nd gen mod I had gained power, but this is way more impressive.

I just added a Sterling carb, which is dumping so much gas into my little stock port 12a that I didn't think it would be able to handle it. But once I get into the throttle its nothing but power. Sure as hell seems like its burning all of the gas that's going into it. Anyway, I'd love to see some official testing done on this system.

Well, there you go.

You used the stock crapola coils, for one thing.

Secondly, it's NOT about a power increase! With a properly tuned carb or fuel injection, you should see only a minimal (if any) difference in power. The difference is in conditions where the mixture is nowhere *near* optimal, or you're dealing with lots of exhaust dilution, etc. THEN you'll see a night and day difference.

for those of you who don't know what I did....

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...=1#post4828328

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...hmentid=104149

peejay i have had no problems out of my second gen coil.. my car starts up like butta... and idles a hell of alot smoother.. maybe you could have hooked something up wrong or something.. its way better than stock though.. and since i got the coil and dizzy for about $50 thats alot cheaper than MSD.. i thought i read somewhere that msd didnt fire right on rotarys..

How could MSD fire wrong? Its still gets the signal from the distributor, just fires hotter and the car runs smoother at all rpm's. I like to use whats proven on the track. I've been to many drag races and always see MSD 6 box and coils in most rotory powered cars...especially old school Rx's. :bigthumb:

well, hooked up my 2gcdfis today. cranked up first try... haven't taken it out for any boosted runs yet but we'll see what happens. one thing i do like, is how it looks under the hood :D when the msd comes in i plan to do just like hyper4mance2k did :D

well i read something that said msd isnt set up for rotary engines thats why people used jacobs .. i dont have anything to back that up i read it in the 1st gen faq page.. i am just trying to say that for the money the 2g coil cant be beat

FB II- Are you using the transistor trick with it?

wasted spark
 

would it be possible to use an Accel ecoil with dual high voltage terminals to get direct fire instead of the 2gen ignitor/coil?

nope and never will, i almost blew my engine because of this mod tonite. for some reason i didn't realize it's a wasted spark setup. so, basically it's firing in my exhaust stroke and all the unburnt fuel (turbo setup here, lots o gas) is bellowing out my exhaust in HUGE FLAMES while at WOT!!! but, not only is it a light show, it's killing my boost and popping very violently. not cool. oh well, i tried it and it sux. for a boosted carb setup that is. i will admit tho, idle cleared up a bit and off boost drivability was a tiny bit smoother. but i dont care about that, i need boost. lol

so, msd 6a ignition box to the leading side of the distributor cap for me thank you. WOOOOT!

LOL. I guess that would cause some issues...:)

I don't think the ignition is to blame for that, you might have another unrelated problem. I could be wrong, we will se what happens when you get that msd.

-Marques

Remember, If you are using an MSD system, it is imperative that the line running to the distributor be sheilded and not be running near any other power wires. Other power sources can disturb the magnetic field and cause a false triggering. If you look at your original loom it is copper shielded for that reason. If you live near an airport they usually have it since it's around some of there wiring systems.

This might help. http://www.action-electronics.com/braid.htm

I have seen it first hand with my cars as I have been using MSD's for a long time. And also if it is in the engine bay be sure to keep it out of a high heat area. Mine is actually mounted in the passenger compartment so that people can see what I got plus it's out of the elements and moisture and I can change my rev limiter without getting out of the car.

Email me for pics if you want, plus I have the MSD wiring diagraphm book which has the setup for roatary engines.

zfrederick@cox.net