So are you saing that you believe him, when he says someone pulled 170hp out of a stock port 12a? Mabey if he were in Antarctica, in the winter!!!!

I will agree with you on the point that dyno numbers are not the end all say all for performance modifications. However, real numbers, especially a before and after comparison, will do justice to the fact that a part either helps or does not.

To support Revhed's position, Rotorhead reports that he hit 117hp with a DHLA, I hit 112hp with a stock Nikki. Now we all know that a side draft is usually worth more than 5hp over the stocker. Different altitude, ambient temp, yadda yadda.

But when person "A" out of the blue says that they are seeing 20 hp more than person "B" with the same setup, "PUT-UP or SHUT-UP"

The Dyno is the "put up" of the "put up or shut up" phrase. Most of us not being able to compare side by side on the back roads can use these numbers generated by others to determine which mods are right for our individual needs. I will stop believing in dyno numbers when I see that different people in different areas are no longer getting similar results from similar mods!

170 hp, sorry I must do I again:D
:bsflag:

Hold up...

Let me get it on the Dyno, and let you know guys know
for sure..

No fucking around - the real deal,


































The Bullshit Dyno
http://thelittlebaby.dhs.org/kenny/sweet/bsmeter.gif

Yep. It's 170HP worth of Bullshit allright..

no peejay, but i wish i had.... i think that damn thing is holding back at least a couple more hp! not a prob though, welding together a RB header for it later this summer, with a rb presilencer, not sure on the muff yet.... maybe dynomax. whatever makes my wallet scream less

Yeah, the chassis dyno's we use over here are of the load cell type.

Load cell dyno's allow you to adjust the load and speed of the dyno which is very benificial. On a turbocharged car for example you can hold the engine at a fixed rpm and gradually increase the load on the dyno which allows you to tune at different boost pressures. You can also hold the engine at a certain rpm and boost, adjust the ignition timing and see the immediate effects on power and torque.

Dynojet dyno's on the other hand simply calculate power by measuring the effort it takes to accelerate the rollers during a run. You don't get any of the benifits of being able to perform steady state tuning like with the load cell dyno's.

Do you want me to have him scan the dyno charts for me and upload them?

This dude doesn't screw around. It's a complete rebuild using all stock parts (race legal specs.. he might be able to use a different material for the seals, I'm not sure, I doubt it) and he tunes it to whatever he can do. His own custom exhaust, own (Heintz Bros) intake, rejetted carb (or holley, I don't know what one he uses), custom ignition, whatever pullies for the water pump to handle the RPM, the whole works. This setup as I understand it costs at least $3500 for the whole full rebuild, dyno time, labor, etc.

You don't understand.. if you shift the powerband up a few grand (these engines run up to 9 grand so I hear), and make the same torque that you did before at a lower RPM.. If you make 110 ft-lbs of torque at 5252 RPM, you get 110 hp. If you make 110 ft-lbs of torque at 8000 RPM (entirely possible if done correctly) then you make 167 hp. Or better yet, make 100 ft-lbs at 9000 RPM and make 171 hp.

Rotaries torque curve is like Kansas flat. Shifting it up can't be that hard if done properly.

By the way it's not a chassis dyno. It's flywheel horsepower. You're trying to tell me that people getting 150 at the flywheel can't squeeze another 20 out of the engine by enough screwing with the flows, timing, and whatever else?

ok I just sent an eMail to him and I'll call when they open up tomorrow.

You are absolutely correct. however some dynojets (as an option) have air brakes which they can adjust via dial, therfore causing more resistance / load.

One of the local tuners here uses the load/brake for tuning his own personal race car, to do exactly that which you stated above. Most people in the states don't use it, because it would result in lower (percieved) horsepower. Over here it's a numbers game.:rolleyes:

LOL! You make it sound so easy... Do you have any idea how much "squeezing" it takes to get to 150hp on a stock port 12A?? 150 is the limit... it's a figure that can be reached by optimizing EVERYTHING. Where do you plan on finding this extra 20hp?

I know how. The Baby Bottle.

He did it with NOS!
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...&postid=832166
Oops.. sorry.. with a Nitrous Oxide System:wink:

Ok, you say whatever you want, I'll get the dyno from him and get his story straight tomorrow ok? I'm just going on what I heard, and all the racers swear by this guy.

I messin with ya man..:peace:

speaking of Ari Yallon, i spoke with him and Steve Kan on and off for a few hours last Sunday at the import drags. I even got a few tips and will let you know how they work out. :)

I just got off the phone with him, I was mistaken, they just got ITA legal 12A's running around 163 hp.

Now, their E-production 12A cars (you can street port 'em) are running around 230 something, fastest in the country.

Dyno sheets any one?:D

How are they making this number I really want to know!!

Do you expect them to release all their trade secrets to the public?

It's spec racing! Either they are cheating or they have figured out a way to break the laws of physics. They claim to be producing more HP than anyone ever has in the last thirty years. Thirty years of countless R&D projects, thirty years of tunning race cars. Granted this might be a mile stone, but ONE claim with no proof, and no explanation. Come on.

I'm not going to believe this untill I see the tear down!!

Ryan

If you've got the money to buy one, go to www.sdjmotorsports.com and call up, ask for Stan. Talk to him and have him rebuild your core into an ITA motor. Then go to his shop and watch as he runs your motor on the dyno.

K&N on CAI, Racing Beat Header & exhaust
Methinks a streetport (not confirmed)
on an '85 GSL-SE w/ working 5th and 6th ports :)

Can walk my buddies mkiii supra turbo w/ hks downpipe and 3" exhaust from a 3rd gear highway roll, steady pulling until we shut it down, and slaughter him from a dig. :)

Those Mk3's are sllloooooowwww....

I'mn trusting the numbers on Yaw's site mainly because there was no chassis dyno bullshit... the engines were dynoed on a proper ENGINE dyno. The way it should be.

And after you get 170hp you just adjust timing and the fuel mixtures some more and then get 190hp. And then do it again, etc. Pretty soon you have a 430hp stock port stock carb engine :)

And then you add a non-intercooled Super Charger to hit the 780 HP mark just like the twin turbo F&F Supra's...;)

Dude, you forgot the Nawsss :(.

I will say this. I have not dynoed my cousin's 85 GSL yet. Might never do it. But he has only made 2 modifications to his 180K mile 12a motor. One is a custom exhaust just like mine. The other is he put on the dual Rotary Performance intake with the Dual Weber 36's. That's it. Everything else is stock.
I put down 156.3rwhp/127.1rwtq on my 85 GSL-SE. He is pretty close to me. Definately safe to say that he has about 150 or more bhp.

If you want to call BS on me - race me first. :-)

His car weighs 300 pounds less than yours. His car is probably making around 130hp at the wheels, which is possible with that setup. He might be "pretty close", but you are definitely faster.

His lighter car (lighter engine block for starters) would not need 150 rwhp (170 flywheel? I won't speculate on drivetrain losses since my speculations seem to enrage Cannucks for some reason...:p: ) to keep up with you. There's also driver variances, which is why dyno time is so important. On the street, 40 HP might win a race, but it's not a given because of all the wild variables that can change the outcome, the least of which is simply the drivers' skills themselves...gotta get dyno...Right now, Paul has 150 HP as the limit of a stock port based on a lot of dyno runs... :cool:

WTF are you talking about???

Haha... just kidding ;). We agree on this one man!

Sorry, my car is stripped and weighs 2400 lbs. I weigh 140 lbs. My car is actually a little lighter than his. He has a fully loaded 85 GSL. I have a stripped GSL-SE.

Fully loaded GSL= ~2300 pounds.

The '84-85 GSLs will weigh more than the earlier ones. There is more electronics in the car, and the rearend weighs ~50 pounds more than the '81-83 GSL rearend.

So, is this going to turn into an argument too? Cmon Peejay, I think we both know what a 12A can do and not do from experience. Yet some people just love to stir the pot with some second hand specualtion... it seems to always turn out that way. It gets annoying.

Hey... knocking on 14's with a 130hp 12A.... wondeful things can happen when your car is light enough :)

I'm with you. My 83 w/12A is down to under 2100 pounds with a Dellorto carb and streetport exhaust. I can run 15 flat (very high 14's, very low 15's lol) with my engine on the way out (cant go over 6000 in 3rd)... and MAN did it take alot of tweaking to get it there.

:flipoff:

That's real cute. Listen, there's always room for improvement. When you build rotaries for decades, with a rather good size budget for R&D because you sell to all-out race car owners who pay a good chunk for this guy's work... This guy designed his own exhaust system for the race engines he builds (and I guess he sells 'em to people he sold engines to so that they're "commercially available" and therefore legal).

82 GSL, 4-port 13B, Racing Beat street port exhaust, Holley intake, A/C, 2385lbs.

84-85's were much heavier - especially fully loaded. They weighed almost as much as a GSL-SE. Closer to 2500lbs. And he weighs about 180lbs himself.

Simple fact is this. I have the car here. It's by no means our first 12A motor. Setting it up right yields good results. There is only so far you can go on a stock-port 12A, but it is higher than 150bhp - of that I am sure. If you figure a 17% drivetrain loss, that puts my GSL-SE at around 190bhp - and he is somewhat keeping up. Not completely - but reasonable close. I am not a great or terrible driver. Neither is he.

Do the math. If you have a car that weighs about 2550 (including the driver) and you run a 16.1 (which he has the only 2 times that he has taken it to the drag strip (at Commerce, no less), then that equates to "about" 157.0 bhp / 120.77 rwhp. And those were back-to-back runs.

Here you go boys... straight from the 85 sales brochure. Without AC 2325lbs, with A/C 2380lbs.

SE is 2575. Anyway you slice it, stock to stock the SE is still at least 195 pounds heavier.

http://www.monmouth.com/~rothe/85-17.jpg

16.1 with 150hp? wtf? And you say he's almost as fast as you with 190 :eek: hp? Hmm... and how are you getting 190hp out of that SE engine again? With the stock FI?

For the second time on this thead...

:bsflag:

You even look like a crazy, mean Cannuck!! What's with everybody posting their personal pics as avatars...this ain't no dating Forum!!

Race me and find out. You need timeslips, dyno sheets? Witnesses? I can back everything I say up. I have been building rotaries for years. When you have more experience, come back and play. Until then, you are an obviously a jackstand racer.

As for the weight of the cars, go and actually weigh your car. They have a scale at every track. I have been and weighed my car. And that's 2385 (he has air) plus his weight of a conservative 180lbs. That's about 2565. Mine weighed 2540 at Silver Dollar with me in it. You also need to figure in gas, oil, water, etc. They weigh them dry. Mine was weighed stripped down, but with a rollcage and 1/4 tank of gas.

Yes, stock injection system, not stock internals. Engine is ported. Need a dyno sheet? You do the math 156.3 rwhp / 127.1 rw-tq with a messed up ignition system (since then has been fixed).

Do you know what a worn out LSD is?

You need to learn more before you start calling someone a liar. Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean someone more experienced can't. You come across like a little 16 year old punk who thinks he's figured it all out.

Hell, come down here to the NOPI Drag Wars (July 27,28) and I'll let you drive both of the cars. On the track, and on the dyno. Come prove it to yourself. Don't just talk sh!t that you have no facts on. I have proof. I can back up what I say.

Call Arthur at Dynolab (http://www.dynolab.net) and ask him what I laid down.

Here is a pic of my motor, exactly how it was when it made 156.3rwhp.

http://63.77.158.90/se/Image135.jpg
http://63.77.158.90/se/Image132.jpg

As you can see, stock fuel injection and intake. There are new 720cc injectors in there though. I have no aftermarket or piggyback timing or fuel computers.
And yes the a/c and p/s do work.

And no, I have not run the N2O on the dyno or track yet.

My cousin's GSL has the dual Weber 36's with the RP intake. I'll try to get you photos of it next. No promises, but I'll try to get him to dyno it soon. Would that make you happy?

BTW - the GSL-SE's rear end does not always work to it's advantage when drag racing. Once you reach higher hp, it makes you shift and extra time. I have to shift into 4th right before the finish, while my cousin can stay in 3rd with his 3.90 rear. It does make a difference.

mar3, this is the car that you asked about earlier. I was going to sell it, but I'll probably hold onto it until the end of the year. Looking to add a S-AFC and S-ITC now to it. Just converted it to direct fire. Also threw new wheel/tires on it.

For the last time... chassis dyno numbers don't mean shit!!

They are great for tuning and testing the effect of modifcations but they are not a 100% reliable indication of your car's horsepower. Anyone who knows a bit about dyno's will tell you this.

LOL!!! Are you crazy?

No no no....

I'm calling bullshit on this one too.

Are you doing these quartermile runs at some very high elevation and in very hot conditions? I ran a 16 flat in my car back when I had RB exhaust and absolutely nothing else. Stock 82 GS, half tank of gas, no weight lightening or anything like that. I'm tellin ya, there's no way I had more than 120 hp at the flywheel at that time.

I think the most likely thing here is that you aren't making the horsepower you think you are. If you really did have 190 horsepower, you'd be running well into the mid 14's, which apparently you aren't. So.... the logical conclusion seems pretty clear.

Please quit repetting what you hear on the internet and go talk to real race car builders.

Why don't you try to convince Jim Downing, Rick Engman, Guch, and many other established race engine builders that they don't know what they are talking about? Do you need their phone numbers?
How about drivers like Gene Wilson (last years World Champion 1/8 mile drag funny car)?
Why don't you call NASCAR and tell them that their contract is a waste of money?
http://www.dynojet.com/auto.shtml

Dynojets are the main established way of measuring a car's true rwhp. No other method is recognized by the industry like Dynojet's Chassis Dynameters.

Lol, you don't know too much about RXcetera if you're talking about him like that:p:

David,

See, the problem is, if you're so experienced, why are you going and saying all these things that even an average rotorhead knows to be off the wall?

I mean, you can argue all you want, but you're betraying your true knowledge level at every step;)

94 degrees (middle of summer), at Commerce, GA (pretty high up, not sure of elevation, generally, a pretty poor track, but NHRA approved - http://www.atlantadragway.com). Stock tires, lots of wheelspin (2.6sec 60'). So yes, not best of conditions. I do get poor launches, not the car, just me.

Fine, don't take my word for it. Call Dynolab, have him fax you the dyno sheet. Right now. You call BS, you'd better be ready to apologize. Take a look for yourself.

Nice driveline loss figure there buddy. These aren't Skylines or WRX's we're talking about here.

So when do we get to see this "experience from years of building rotaries" start to show itself?

It seems to me that those who chirp about how "experienced" they are, are usually the ones who don't know very much at all. It's looking like you're falling into this category.

Are all you Canadians like this? Think you have figured it all out? What a joke. I'm done with this thread. None of you want to learn anything new, all you want to do is call people liars. I don't lie. I have given you what you need to prove it to yourselves.

I've been building them since 96. I have built several 12a's. The people I have learned from have been building them even more years and have been established for decades. What about you?

On driveline losses, ask any established builder or tuner what they say the RX7 losses. They will all say 15%-20%.

Done with you. If need more, PM me.

Lol, why should I waste my long distance dollars on that?? I don't give a shit. Call them yourself and post the dyno sheet up on the forum if you want to justify your claim.

Look, I'm not saying you're lying about your dyno claim; I don't know too much about modified SE's. What I do know a little about are stock 12A FB's, and I'm tellin' ya, they don't run 16.1's when they have 157hp, and they don't have 157hp in the first place with stock ports.

The only logical conclusion I can reach if you're telling me you're running 16's on 190hp is....

a) You have 2000 pounds of groceries and subwoofers in the trunk.

or....

b) You don't have 190 hp.

Which is it?