Gsl-se diagnose my problem
 

Recently loosened my 6 ports. Along the way, replaced a number of brittle/breaking hoses, rebuilt the OMP, cleaned the injectors, replaced the injector electrical connectors, gaskets, the usual.

Got it cranked and the car will NOT idle. It "searches" continuously until it finally goes dead.

My best guess is a "violent" vacuum breach. If so, where is my most likely point? Either way, I'm gonna have to drag all that crap back off the top of the engine for the 3rd time. (Yes, I didn't tighten my fuel lines down when I replaced them and the first time I cranked I shot fuel all over the place). It had the funky idle then too.

jerij

I would definitely think vacuum leak as it has the symptoms. Check everything you've touched. Did you change the injector seals?

Excactly what he said^ Every one of those things will cause your symptoms except for the OMP. and also correct^, if your positive that you replaced everything tightly but didnt replace the injector seals, that will give you a pretty noticable leak in vacuum

Yes, I did replace the seals. They "appeared" to seat correctly. I got them from Mazdatrix also.

Crap.....

jerij

Is there a better choice/place for the seat/seal?

I might as well change those out again if it's a possible cause.

jerij

You could try some propane , just open the valve on your torch without lighting it and with engine running just direct the nozzle everywhere there might be a chance of a vacuum leak . if there is a leak you will notice a big difference in the way it runs but you need to be in there real close or the propane just dissipates and won't do anything . :) Gerald m.

there are a lot of places you can get them from, but they will most likely all come from the same company. Mazdatrix doesn't actually make them, they just supply them. so long as they fit over the pintle of the injector snug and you snugged down the fuel rail they shuld be fine. Make sure the solid grommet is on the bottom, and the other one(with the indented recess) is on top. if you believe this is correct, it might be time to look at some other possibilities of where the leak is coming from.

Propane is a bit dangerous for vacuum leak detection i'd recommend using brake cleaner. It works just the same, not as dangerous. But I would just remove and reseal everything you removed and check gaskets, any gasket you havent replaced do it and then you should be good.

Get a can of CARB cleaner and use that instead.

If everything was working before, it should after. Find the leak.

Carb cleaner is good too but it rapes paint, just be careful where you spray it.

I would double check vacuum hose routing as well as electrical connection to the BAC. Have you ever replaced the vacuum hoses? I found that after removing my original hoses from the tubes they never really seated properly again. I also found cracks in some of the hoses. It's a cheap fix if the UIM is off already.

just make sure its not something simple before you start tearing it all down.

I use WD-40 for searching for a leak. I've heard that the WD-40 oil temporarly seals the leak and thats why the engine kicks up idle speed.

Yes on the hoses. When I took the UIM/LIM off to get to my 6-ports, a ton of them broke. One on the cruise was already broken (found that problem anyway). I balk at lock-tying them all down.

I agree on the injector seals also. It's hard to see how they could be losing vacuum when the fuel rail appears to have zero tolerance for a misfit.

jerij

OK, it's NOT a vacuum leak. I took upper and lower intake off. Re-seated the injectors, copper coated the gaskets, double checked EVERYTHING. The exact same issue.

I'm turning my attention now to something electronic. Besides the AFM ( I think I've ethered it to death trying to crank with a dead fuel pump) and the computer, what else is there?

jerij

i know it cant idle but can you at least get it to stay on at any rpm? the computer for the SE really doesn't go bad(unless it got wet,which happends to so many SE's, but youll know when it does cuz the carpets soaked).Starter fluid won't ruin the afm(its just a vane with a potentiometer and spring, even if you somehow damaged the IAT it will still run). if she doesn't run and your absolutely positive that there is no vacuum leak, start checking for fuel and spark. fuel pressure, injector firing, proper spark, ect.,ect. any thing to do with those two systems. if it just doesn't idle start with your BAC

BAC I will start. The car fires right up. The idle surge on start-up looks/sounds normal. It's when the tach/RPM's comes back down immediately after the crank, it won't settle at the "cold" RPM setting and then slowly drop to normal. It comes down and settles on "dead".

If I keep feathering the accelerator, it will continue to run, albeit with an occasional hiccup and subsequent more fervent feathering.

jerij

How does your O2 Sensor look?

also adjust the tps.

Read through this if you haven't already: Solving GSL-SE Idle Problems

I'll check the O2S.

I swapped out a TPS from an identical (almost) car. No change on either car.

Next I was going to swap the BAC, AFM to see what/any effect.

Also, I'm not sure if any of the solenoids are capable of causing such a dramatic effect on the idle (and damn, they are a pita to remove.....)

jerij

the engine is in open loop at the cold rpm you are describing. so an o2 isn't gunna be your problem! What happends at say 3000rpm or more? Is there still a hiccup? Check the bac first but if the problem persists at these higher rpm's then start looking into your ignition system. also if there is no problem in the upper rpm's i would say the afm is fine, at idle the vane is closed and air bypasses it thru a channel in the side if it. Unless you messed with the variable resistor(which we all know not to do)it wont have a rough idle. (im not sure if the tps gets looked at in open loop either, but somebody do correct me if im wrong)

(i know it dictates open loop once the o2 warms up but during warm up time is it read by the computer?I only say this because during warm up time on my GTU if you unplug it and the computer reads 5v it makes no difference until it starts seeing a signal from the o2, thrn it goes rich and starts dying)

OK, BAC is good as is AFM (I switched out parts on an identical "good running" GSL/SE).

And you're correct, at 2k-3k+, smooth and even. But as that tach drops to "idle", it just can't catch and falls right through the floor.

Not a lot left, the O2S, some solenoids....

I did put new injector connectors on the car but am POSITIVE (well, almost :-) ) I wired them correctly. I don't think I'd get a smooth 2-3k with that screwed up.

It's got to be something simple I've overlooked.

jerij

O2 will only make a difference in closed loop. This does happen when its cold and hot rite? Does it smell really rich at say 1000-1500rpm?any black soot? What is the voltage at the coils?

Idle problem at cold and warmed up. It does run slightly better warmed though.

It smells rich at all RPM's/temps.

No "extensive" black soot noted.

Haven't checked any ignition components yet.

jerij

has it smelled this way before everything was changed? does it start pretty easy? make sure your coolant temp sensor is hooked up. If you do believe that it is overly rich, the only real method would be to set up a fuel pressure gauge and check it at idle. if its too much pressure than i would check the fpr solenoid that controls the hot starts first. sometimes it can get physically stuck venting to atmosphere even though there is no voltage at it. remove the line to it and see if there is a difference. it shuld go rich when removed, if it stays the same check the solenoid by bypassing it and see if it gets any better.

Guys, I'm gonna get my service manual out an go through the "check" for idle issues in section 4B. It's all I know to do at this point.

Before I replaced the fuel pump, I'd spray ether into the intake to get it running. After the ether was gone, it went dead. I finally replaced the pump and now I'm good. I'm not sure if I "burned" something along the way though.

Following the SM diagram is the only way I know at this point to isolate the issue.

Of course, it does help to have another functional, working GSL-SE to swap parts out from the help!

jerij

So far I've cleaned the contacts in the distributor, one coil contact was corroded, and went ahead and replaced the O2 sensor (bitch to get to without removing hard components).

By the weekend I'm going to check the ignitors (if I can figure out how) and the coils too. I'm also going to remove the dynamic chamber/throttle body and see if anything died in there while that part was sitting on my basement/garage floor for 6 months.

I also picked up a spare throttle body that I had at my parents over the weekend just to make things interesting!

jerij

Joust a thought you probably already checked, but you did say that you got the 5th and 6th ports loosened up at the beginning did you check there for a vacuum leak? The seals get old and brittle and could cause a leak.

Are you referring to the seal around the stem? One was somewhat "spotty" for lack of a better word. Hard to find these now in good shape.

I also wondered if I got them on "backwards" and if that would cause an issue. (don't ask).

Either way, the previous post didn't help. I fired her up tonite....no change.

Saturday, I'm pulling the UIM, LIM, EVERYTHING, and double checking again. It's gotta be something I took off and screwed up....


jerij

Yeah thats the ones, they take a lot of heat check them out if you are not finding any other leaks that could be part of it. Good Luck

I called Ray Crowe in Virginia. The rods are NO longer available. I'm about to pick up a new LIM/ACTUATOR/RODS from a forum/EBAY seller withing the next couple of days. I'm hoping(have inquired heavily) about the shape of the rods.

I bought a set off the forum about 4 monts ago and one was "sketchy". It could definitley be leaking vacuum.

Anyone know of any "liquid" fix that could "beef" up the rubber component on these? I'm now pulling at straws, I know, but.....I'm at the point of putting a posting up of: "Come get this piece of crap outa my garage"....

jerij

Was out of pocket Saturday so I didn't get everything pulled back off. I'll finish the LIM this week sometime and start over again this coming weekend with putting it back on.

I'm going to go over everything I can with a "fine tooth comb". Which brings me to my question now:

I took off the following for whatever reason, to fix, rebuild, etc.:

Air pump
Oil metering pump (rebuild)
Cold start reservoir and motor (clean)

Any reason to even think they could contribute to the issue? I'm saying/thinking no....

jerij

A couple of more things.....

I pulled the injectors out originally and cleaned them (see YouTube). They appeared to work fine. I noticed no difference (grossly visual) between the two. I reversed the polarity and blew cleaner backwards also.

The connectors were fried, brittle and broken. I replaced them with a new set. I am positive +/- almost zero, I got the polarity right on the leads.

Would the car rev at 2K+ smoothly without both of them working properly?

I'm considering now pulling the injectors and having them professionally cleaned. Also, to double check my leads and make sure there isn't a screw-up there.

jerij

Had my injectors cleaned by FI in Georgia. Flow was 748/750. On pulse they were sticking. They got that working.

Put them in, cranked it up, hit cold idle at ~2000. Good. Got out of the car and I was flooding the garage floor with gas. Everything off, replace the broken fuel lines, everything back on.

Cranked it up......same problem.

I'm not sure if the injectors had one last "crank"/"run" in them, or something else is wrong. FIG said they were ending their life based on their pulse performance as being "weak".

The car's about to hit the junkyard....

jerij