Can a STOCK FB non GSL-SE take 300HP+?
 

Can it or do you need to change parts? What parts should be changed and what do they cost?

n/a, on stock porting, probably not..

300 shot of NOS? for a second or two.
then its time for a rebuild. or two

I don't really understand the question. What exactly are you planning on doing?

I would like a light-weight car with around 300HP+. Only the non-SE FB is light. I want a N/A without NOS. Can the STOCK parts take 300HP or do I need to change the drivetrain for example and howmuch is it gonna cost me?

I would suggest subframe connectors:) Too stiffen up the chassis a bit. But I have no clue as to iff, I am over board or not. I am gonna do it anyways, I just dont want to risk anything.
LATERZ, Andrew

I bet a j-bridge or peripheral port 12A with a Weber could pull it off. I'm not sure if the 12A tranny could take it though. To make that much power you have to revv really high so you will need all of those hardened motor parts from the racingbeat catolog and carbon or ceramic apex seals. I also plan on trying to hit 300+ hp on a N/A 12A motor when i have enough $ that is good luck!

A pure race motor might make 300 hp at the flywheel.

Now if you swaped in a 20b, full sidedraft carb setup with P-Ports you could easily make that hp.

People have made as much as 350 engine hp from a 13PP with slide throttle injection. I'd say 300 hp is definately possible with a Weber.

Obviously you will need to upgrade the drivetain. A T2 gearbox should do the trick as well as an LSD rear end of some sort.

Will the car still be under 1100KG after all the upgrades? That is really immportant to me. The engine doesn't have to be a 12A. I might be able to put a Renesis in it if it's worth the CASH. Or a 20b if it fits.

you will need to upgrade the tranny,
and possibly rear end if its a gs,
if its a gsl you can probably get away with the rear end,

300 hp is pretty far fetched for anything streetable,

but the engine itself will handle every bit of it.

carbon apex seals would also be a nice investment

Worry about making a engine that can make 00hp first, then worry about the drivetrain.

So if you want the Non-SE body, then I take it this is purly for drag racing? since you won't have the better braking system of the GSL-SE.
heck if you can afford a Renisis swap or 20B, then 300HP is a drop in the bucket!

If possible I want a light car. A GSL-SE has about the same weight as a FC. I would rater buy a FC than a FB. An FD+mods is to expensive for me. So I thought a non SE version could be the one.

Or do you guys know another way to get a FB or FC lighter than 1000KG? I do want 300HP+ N/A without NOS. I don't care if it's not streetable, coz my mothers car is my daily driver.

My SA weighed 1000kg.

To be honest if you want 300hp you're better off putting a turbo engine in, it'll be more reliable and cheaper in the long run.

you're talk'n to americans, man. we need weight in pounds not keelograms.

if its for drag racing find an sa (79-80). you could easily get it below 2000lb by removing all the extra crap. sound insulation alone seems 100+. emissions, gone, ac, gone.

:bss:

A stock SE is 2,590 lbs. (1,165.5 kilos). The lightest FC was 2,625 lbs. (1,181.25 kilos). Mind you the lightest FC. ;)

The lightest SA/FB was 2,345 lbs (1,055.25 kilos), but the reason for that is not just power options and cushy seats. SE's have bigger rotors (on all four corners), heavier duty differentials, and a bigger engine/tranny combo.

For a platform, it would be easier to pull options out of the SE to save weight than it would be to add the upgrades to the '81-'85 S model. I have done minor weight reduction, all detailed here http://home.mn.rr.com/linnihan/1st_corner_weighing.htm , and brought the car down to a respectable 2,528 lbs. (1,137.6 kilos) which is very near your weight goal. Replacing the power windows with cranks, a metal sunroof instead of the glass one, no louvers, and some racing seats would definitely bring the car down to the 2,400 lb. (1,080 kilo) range.

Turbo makes the most power in relation to the weight of the car/motor.

The question is, will the car be comfortable to drive around town after you pull enough stuff off to get under the 1K kilo mark? After a certain point in weight reduction on a street car, upping the power to compensate is a better choice. ;)

My solution? A GSL-SE or 12A Turbo, weight reduction until it hurts a little, and swap in a bigger turbo or a TII motor. :D

http://home.mn.rr.com/linnihan/Rotary%20Turbo.htm

1983 FB's are 2290 pounds with 5 speed and no A/C(according to Mazda).

To be a wanker here....

GSL-SE have the same transmission and differential as 12A cars, just the gearing is a little different. True, the -SE has heavier brakes and wheels and a slightly heavier engine, but much of the difference is that the curb weight listed is how much the cars weighed with no options.

GSL-SE's came loaded with everything but leather and power steering. 12A cars didn't. So the GSL-SE weight is for a fully loaded car while the 12A weights AREN'T. Put A/C and P/S and all the goodies on a 12A car and it'll weigh fairly close to what a GSL-SE weighs!

There was a long lead-time between the production of a car and its sale, so what Mazda did was ship cars to the US with all of the standard items, and stuff like A/C was added in the US at the port of entry or at the dealership. I don't know what other options were added like this, but I do know that A/C was one of them. Since all GSL-SE's had A/C they'd put it on at the factory.

My source is the Sportscar color history book on the weights. The John Ball book gives the '79 4 sp. S model curb weight as 2,350 lbs, and the SE as approximately 2,640 lbs.

peejay: are you saying that a lsd weighs the same as a non-lsd? Or that a 13B flywheel and counterweight are the same weight? I'm not being a wise ass here. I really want to know. Seems to me that they should weigh more.

The SE intake is considerably bigger than a 12A carbie as well. The SE holds 4 quarts of oil above and beyond the 12A models, and an additional quart of oil over the '83. ;)

Basically my point is that the SE comes with the performance gear to begin with, which you will want if you plan on pushing 300 hp. I certainly would want disc breaks, lsd, 14" wheels, better lug pattern, etc. Personally, I would rather pull off the parts I don't want than put the parts I do want on. ;)

The difference (give or take 50 lbs. depending on your source) is mostly options, with the other bit of difference being useable performance gear. Plus the TII engine swap (if this is the chosen route) would be easier given the GSL-SE parts needed.

If we are looking at just building a fast ultra-light rotary drag machine, and the labor involved isn't an issue, I'd do a Spitfire or a Fiat Spider, or a MG Midget. But IMHO the convenience of having it all and deciding what goes bye-bye is a better deal. :) If you are going for light weight, lets not split hairs over 50 lbs that can easily be done away with. :D

$.02

if he's gonna be racing even if he chooses the 12a he can still get the lsd
im sure he will go with a gsl or at least get a gsl rear.

gsl and gsl-se are the same rears,just diferent gears,

as for the tranny's?????

i know their the same 1st - 4th "gear ratio"

Trannies are the same, the only difference besides the gears is the SE has a thingie hanging off the left side of the bellhousing. BFD.

I don't understand what you mean about flywheels etc? The different in imbalance is there, yes, but we're not going to be breaking the bank with it. That's like saying a car will be faster when it's a quart low on oil because it weighs less :)

actually that is something like he's saying. weights weight. like f1 and how much gas they can fill up with. anyway i thought the sa frame, bumper, or something of the likes was a little smaller or different. i noticed the sa's lighter assembly weighed a little less.:D

Actually the FB bumpers weigh a little less, but the SA bumpers look a hell of a lot better. :)

What you have to realize is that there is deadweight and there is functional weight. You can't compare a 300lb bodybuilder and a 300lb couch potato.

Don't worry about gutting the car of dead weight till you decide what FULL engine setup your going to use. Removing weight is relatively easy. Worry about the drive train components first and decide what you want. Drivability or just 300hp@8000rpm? Heavier hardware usually lasts longer just so you know...

true, but i would put neither in a drag car:D

so how much can the stock shit handle? tranny, drive shaft, clutch... right now i have somewhere around 200 hp in my 79 (tranny, clutch, and drive shaft are off of my old 80) so it is not that much of a concern. but if i start to increase the power more (which i will) i know i will need a new clutch. what about the tranny? etc?

I theorize that if you upgrade the clutch the tranny will blow. I also theorize that the '84-85 trannies are garbage because they have smaller teeth on 3rd and 5th gears. As such, when I put a new clutch in my '85, I'm also going to be putting my '80's trans in it. The bearings in the current tranny are pretty noisy, anyway. (sounds like a coffee grinder full of metal shavings :) )

so what options do we have for other tranny's then? will a TII tranny bolt directly up to my 78 rx4 13b?

I think that's something search-worthy. :)

I do know that the bellhousing bolt patterns are the same for all rotaries, so the trans will bolt to the case, and they make a special clutch disk that is N/A sized but has the T2 input splines, after that I get fuzzy :)

hmm.. oh well, no need to worry about that now.. hopefully i have a ways to go before i need to worry about replacing the clutch and tranny

What about all this porting business? Since I am going to get a rebuilt 12A soon, should I get it J-ported, street ported or bridgeported? I really don't know what the difference is between them all, but I do want my rex to be fast and more 'torquey' (not a word, but you know what I mean) off the line. I want it to sound cool and have more horsepower, without changing to a 13B. I'm also going to be driving this back and forth to school (1hr), occasionally doing some racing and such...:) Any suggestions?

My 1984 GS has the 12a, no A/C (including the condensor) no power windows no cruise control but has, Manual Steering, LSD and Automatic Transmission and a aftermarket sunroof that seams lighter that factory. It comes with a case so I can always take it off though! I plan on gutting the interior of insulation...the clunks and bangs and squeels all appeal to me. I'm going to take out the factory amps and other crap like that pesky spare tire!

If you want power from a 1st gen, visit mazdaracing.com. They have a 1st gen with stock 12a and transmission (from a junkyard!) with a custom turbo kit on it that beats cars with 302's in them! I watch the video a couple times a week.

If you want to see cool video to to mazdaracing.com, just don't try to buy anything from them. :rolleyes:

That car only does high 11's BTW. Not enough to beat Mustangs. :) (They feed 'em with super oats 'round here :) )

85rx7gs: if you are going to be doing some 'real' driving, commuting type thigns, then you might want to stay away from the bridgeport.. i am not exactly sure as to what a j-port is, but a nice streetport is always a good option.. it will not be to loud, have some power, not kill your gas milage (like a bridge port will) and will last longer than a brideport.

J-bridge is a bridge port so large that it extends into the water jacket. (Jacket bridge) Apparently they only last about 6 months before they leak coolant into the engine, since you have to cut away the water seal where the port is.

Sorry for the late response. My e-mail notification is evidently out of commission. :)

The GSLs came standard with most of the stuff that comes on the SE, so what is the point to getting the GSL as a base? The same options minus what? The 13B? ;) The parts needed for a transplant? If that is even an option, there has been no indication form the original poster as to his purpose for wanting this 300 hp lightweight monster...

Weight is weight. If you are reducing weight, 2 lbs. here, 5 lbs. there, 3 lbs. another place = 10lbs. ;)

Does a 13B flywheel and counterweight weigh more than a 12A's flywheel and counter weight or not? I don't knoiw, but I would guess that they might. :)

Depends on the year.

In a race car, anything that is not intended to make the car faster or handle better is dead weight. In a street car, some of that fat you mention becomes desireable, like a radio, or AC. ;) So, what is the original poster's intention?

Is any year 12A flywheel and counterweight heavier than a GSL-SE 13B flywheel and counterweight? :rolleyes: I can't believe this has become an issue to debate. It is a minute point in the much larger arguement for using a particular platform to build upon toward an unknown performance goal...

NOTA V6, that's exactly my point. I wouldn't worry about a pound or two or rotor and counterweight weight in determining whether to run a 12A or a 13B. 12As and 13Bs have the same port sizes and so would make about the same peak HP, but the 13B would have a broader powerband due to its larger displacement and would therefore be faster overall. Certainly it would negate a pound or two of rotating weight.

I have no clue as to the original poster's intention... he wants to know if a stock car will make 300hp? If you modify it to make 300hp it will be very very far from stock, so stock form is really a moot point.

From Mazdatrix's website:

13B Rotor Weight 74-85: 11.58 lb (compression is higher '84-85 but they weigh the same)

12A Rotor Weight 76-82: 10.15 lb

13B Rotor Weight 86-88: 10.04 lb (compression different turbo vs. non but weight's the same)

12A Rotor Weight 83-85: 9.60 lb (now you know why I like late 12A's :) )

13B Rotor Weight 89-95: 9.54 lb (compression different turbo vs. non but weight's the same)

We can assume that counterweight weight is relative to rotor weight. The difference between the lightest and the heaviest is roughly 2 pounds.

Flywheels from Mazdatrix's website:

'79-80 12A: 30 lb

'86-88 13B: 27 lb (Turbo)

'83-85 12A: 26 lb
'84-85 13B: 26 lb (GSL-SE)

'86-88 13B: 24 lb (Non-turbo)

'81-82 12A: 23 lb
'89-92 13B: 23 lb (Turbo)

'89-92 13B: 21 lb (Non-turbo)

'93-95 13B: 20 lb (obviously, Turbo)

Of course none of this matters if you go to a lightweight flywheel.

Stock form is the platform to build on. ;) If you start with more, you can remove it a lot easier than starting with less and installing all the other gear you need or want. My goal for instance is 300+ hp. With the flick of the switch (Wolf map), I can have a 500 hp time bomb. :D I will still run AC (although not when racing or pushing the boost limit), sound insulation, and a radio with cassette player. No racing seats. No lexan windows. My goal is street performance with occasional track time of a less competitive nature.

Like I say, weight is weight if choosing it as a stock platform to build upon. With the 300 hp 12A or the TII transplant, the stock flywheel and counterweight from either platform is leaving. The argument I was pursuing is that the weight of the GSL-SE stock as opposed to the 12A models stock is not completely options. However I see that my flywheel argument is shot down. ;) Thanks for the research. :)

If the original poster is going for a race car, then he's better off checking the regulations first than asking us. If he's going for street performance, IMHO he's better off starting with the SE and whittling away, and/or going turbo, which the SE would facilitate, since a 300 hp 12A would not be reliable, or very streetable.

We need a goal from Aico before any of this theorizing will do any good. :) Aico?

peejay: You should come to the MRR. :) Link below...

http://home.mn.rr.com/linnihan/mrr-forum-banner.gif

No way! That's the weekend of the Sport Compact Nats at Norwalk. I need to see if I can make it past the semifinals in Bracket 3 this year. :)

Besides... I'm not a fan of car shows. I would go insane if I went to a road course and wasn't allowed to get on the track and let 'er rip... and if I can't do that, then basically it looks like it's just going to be some FD wine and cheese tasting thing, and that is not my style. The dirt is buried deep under my fingernails and there's no way I'll ever come clean :)

I beg your pardon, but I helped put this thing together, and I am doing my own engine swap. FD wine & cheese tasting indeed. Hmmph! :mad:

peejay, whats sport compact nats?

nota v6, i see your point. so it wasn't fully in vain. looks like a lot of fun. i wish i could come. i agree with pj on the rather be racing then watching thing. although both is best. guess i'll just enjoy your new pics.

There is an opportunity to get reduced fee entrance onto the track for 45 minutes to an hour to do some lapping, coutesy of Mazda. You just have to read the whole deal before writing it off. ;)