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My TypeRS is in need of new brakes. I've bought some Dixcel HD solid discs from Yahoo Japan Auctions so I just need to decide on pads.
The car is not a daily drive, I use it for the odd drive out on the roads and 4-5 track days per year, max 6000 miles per year or so.
What would you guys recommend? Been looking at Carbotech AX6 and XP8, Hawk HPS.
What are your thoughts on these and what else would you recommend?
Ideally want low dust, low noise and rotor friendly, but that said I do want more bite than the stock RS setup has at the moment and fade resistance.
The last big trackday I did was at Bedford Autodrome Gran Turismo circuit, a 3.6 mile track day only circuit here in the UK which isn't too brake heavy.
There was no hint of fade despite ambient temps being in the 90f range, but the initial bite was lacking on the stock RS pads
Hawk HPS are AWFUL. Infinitely worse than OEM Honda S2000 pads for street and track. You'd be better off with OEM or parts-store "Duralast Gold" or Centric "PosiQuiet" pads. Seriously.
XP8s would be a good choice, I've dailied on them for months at a time between events. Currently have XP10s on the FD, been doing the same thing with them. No problem with ambient temps above ~55F. Some lack of cold bite in cooler temps.
These pads dust a bit, but it cleans up reasonably easily. Noise isn't bad, particularly after they've been beaten on at the track.
XP8's will be a good entry track pad. You can run those all the way around (front and rear) without issues. They will squeal some if you run them on the street when they are cool, but Carbotechs have good cold stopping power which is great if you aren't a serious track nut.
Once you get faster and begin to run some sticker tire compounds, you can step up the front pads to XP10's (or XP12's) and keep the rears at XP8's.
XP8's will likely be totally fine, even with sticky R-comps.
Whether or not you ever need to "step up" from XP8s is dependent on many factors and isn't strictly related to how fast you are. Some people are just easier on brakes even while turning the same lap times in the same car.
Once I bought a set of Porterfield R4Ss, I haven't even thought of going back to OEM, EBCs or Hawks. I'm not sure if they make them for your brakes (I have a '93), but if they DO make them, give 'em a try! The track I go to most is Laguna Seca. It's got some pretty steep hills, and the R4Ss handle it MUCH better than the EBC yellows I had on before trying the Porterfields.
..and make sure your brake ducts (and undertray) are intact and not too beat up. You'd be surprised how much difference those little things make in keeping your trackday cool.
I wouldn't say the XP8s "dust a bit" I'd call them heavy dusters. But it does clean up extremely easy. Id recommend them only if you're ok with lots of dust. Otherwise they are a fantastic pad that sounds like it's perfect for your stated needs. They will overheat if you step up to sticky tires and push the car but as mentioned an xp12 or higher in the front will solve that.
I wouldn't say the XP8s "dust a bit" I'd call them heavy dusters. But it does clean up extremely easy. Id recommend them only if you're ok with lots of dust. Otherwise they are a fantastic pad that sounds like it's perfect for your stated needs.
Pretty much what the Carbotech dude said, so long as I'm ok with dust go with the XP8. Recommended I wax my wheels after washing which I already do
Originally Posted by fd_neal
They will overheat if you step up to sticky tires and push the car but as mentioned an xp12 or higher in the front will solve that.
When you say sticky, how sticky?
The car still has the OEM Bridgestone Potenzas on it at the moment, when they wear out I plan to go Yoko AD08. I had these on my MR2 Turbo and they were frlckin fantastic, rain or shine, hot or freezing.
Dependent on many other factors, and *very* driver-dependent, even at the same lap times. Nobody can tell you exactly what pads will work best for you. XP8's are a good starting point either way. They might be fine on R-comps as well, again it will depend on factors that no one can fully know in advance.
Dependent on many other factors, and *very* driver-dependent, even at the same lap times. Nobody can tell you exactly what pads will work best for you. XP8's are a good starting point either way. They might be fine on R-comps as well, again it will depend on factors that no one can fully know in advance.
While this is true, the fact that he's not cooking stock pads eludes to the fact that he'll be fine with XP8's.
OP, I will say that Carbotechs are traditionally a little lighter than some other pads with regards to the initial bite. Those that say they have good bite have probably never tried some other "good" pads. IMO, Carbotech has done a good job with not making the bite too harsh and being able to handle the heat from performance driving.
As mentioned, each track and driver is different so your mileage may vary. The only way to know is to get out there and test but it sounds like you'll be fine for where you are at today. Going forward as you get faster, you may need to revisit your pad choices.
I'm sure the bite will be improved over stock, and I suspect my experience of poor bite on the stock setup is due to the discs and pads being very worn.
I'm going to order the XP8s in a couple of weeks. Will report back my findings once they're fitted and bedded in.
Hawk HP+ are another option. Infinitely better than their craptastic HPS pads. Not up to XP8 heat levels, but the bite is phenomenal, highest coefficient pads I've ever used. They were fine for me at the track in my stock S2000 on Dunlop StarSpec street tires, never any issues. The braking torque response is amazing. A lot of black dust, and a LOT of noise until they're beaten into submission at the track.
While this is true, the fact that he's not cooking stock pads eludes to the fact that he'll be fine with XP8's.
OP, I will say that Carbotechs are traditionally a little lighter than some other pads with regards to the initial bite. Those that say they have good bite have probably never tried some other "good" pads. IMO, Carbotech has done a good job with not making the bite too harsh and being able to handle the heat from performance driving.
As mentioned, each track and driver is different so your mileage may vary. The only way to know is to get out there and test but it sounds like you'll be fine for where you are at today. Going forward as you get faster, you may need to revisit your pad choices.
I somewhat disagree with your initial bite comments, everything else I think has been spot on. I have XP8's in the car now as an autocross pad and initial bite and modulation is fantastic, less than the DTC-60's they replaced but that's expected. I've run nearly the whole Hawk lineup (less blacks and DTC-30) and just the XP8's from Carbotech. The XP8 has the initial bite that I expected from carbotech's description (from memory better than the hawk blues), for my uses I wouldn't call it a track pad but its also far more aggressive than any street pad I have run. If carbotech's claims are accurate the bite, torque, and fade resistance goes up as you go up the line, the XP16/20 should have bite and torque that matches if not outdoes the DTC60/70's.
Originally Posted by ZDan
Hawk HP+ are another option. Infinitely better than their craptastic HPS pads. Not up to XP8 heat levels, but the bite is phenomenal, highest coefficient pads I've ever used. They were fine for me at the track in my stock S2000 on Dunlop StarSpec street tires, never any issues. The braking torque response is amazing. A lot of black dust, and a LOT of noise until they're beaten into submission at the track.
HP+ are better than the HPS but not by much. They are going to overheat on track about a lap after the HPS (personal experience with both pads they overheated in 2 laps instead of 1). They have OK initial bite and get weak after that, they are marketed as an autocross pad and did that job well when they were new but better options have come along since. HP+ are a rotor aggressive pad, noisy, dusty (much harder to wash off than carbotech), and wear quickly. They are however cheap and do fit many peoples needs.
I somewhat disagree with your initial bite comments, everything else I think has been spot on. I have XP8's in the car now as an autocross pad and initial bite and modulation is fantastic, less than the DTC-60's they replaced but that's expected. I've run nearly the whole Hawk lineup (less blacks and DTC-30) and just the XP8's from Carbotech. The XP8 has the initial bite that I expected from carbotech's description (from memory better than the hawk blues), for my uses I wouldn't call it a track pad but its also far more aggressive than any street pad I have run. If carbotech's claims are accurate the bite, torque, and fade resistance goes up as you go up the line, the XP16/20 should have bite and torque that matches if not outdoes the DTC60/70's.
You can disagree all you like. However, there are pads which have a much higher coefficient of friction than what CT offers. CT used to list their numbers, but I don't see that they list them any longer. I used to run N-Tech Lapping Day pads on my FD and they were a much higher coefficient than any of the CT pads I used (on either of my cars). Granted, I recall the XP20/24's being a product during that time, but the bite of the lower ones were nothing to write home about. At the end of the day, it's not all about the bite of the pad. Some people prefer a lot of bite, some people don't. I was merely bringing up that there are pads with a higher coefficient than CT which is fact, not opinion.
HP+ are better than the HPS but not by much. They are going to overheat on track about a lap after the HPS (personal experience with both pads they overheated in 2 laps instead of 1).
My experience with these pads is very different. I'm super-easy on brakes, and HPS wouldn't last me a single lap before they were dangerous, whereas I could nurse OEM S2000 pads for a weekend, and HP+ I just didnt' have to worry about (stock S2000, StarSpec tires).
Anyway, reinforces the point that different people will have different experiences with brake pads, no one can tell the OP *exactly* what is best for him, he's going to have to find out for himself ultimately.
You can disagree all you like. However, there are pads which have a much higher coefficient of friction than what CT offers. CT used to list their numbers, but I don't see that they list them any longer. I used to run N-Tech Lapping Day pads on my FD and they were a much higher coefficient than any of the CT pads I used (on either of my cars). Granted, I recall the XP20/24's being a product during that time, but the bite of the lower ones were nothing to write home about. At the end of the day, it's not all about the bite of the pad. Some people prefer a lot of bite, some people don't. I was merely bringing up that there are pads with a higher coefficient than CT which is fact, not opinion.
This I totally agree with, I probably read wrong into "OP, I will say that Carbotechs are traditionally a little lighter than some other pads with regards to the initial bite. Those that say they have good bite have probably never tried some other "good" pads." I took that as saying they are wimpy pads that can take the heat. Its a shame that many manufactures aren't posting all the specs of their pads anymore. It can really help a buyer match a pad to a tire and driving style.
The XP8's are living up to my needs and expectations for a good autocross pad, and I can easily see how a driver pushing less on less sticky rubber would really appreciate them on a track. IMO initial bite at low speeds with sticky tires is about right, and this should translate into good bit at high speeds on street tires. DTC 60's at autocross speeds were basically on or off, not easy to modulate at all.
Originally Posted by ZDan
My experience with these pads is very different. I'm super-easy on brakes, and HPS wouldn't last me a single lap before they were dangerous, whereas I could nurse OEM S2000 pads for a weekend, and HP+ I just didnt' have to worry about (stock S2000, StarSpec tires).
Anyway, reinforces the point that different people will have different experiences with brake pads, no one can tell the OP *exactly* what is best for him, he's going to have to find out for himself ultimately.
I find it very surprising that the HP+ were that much better then the HPS but you probably were maxing out the brake temps on all 3 pads below the HP+'s max. Not something I've ever been able to do, my cars have always been too heavy or too fast, S2000 has an incredible overall package from the factory. I agree that everyone will have a different experience, comparing a stock S2000 to a modified RX7 (mine) isn't apples to apples at all.
The track makes a big difference too. I used to do a few days a year on a gokart track that was murder on brakes. Would easily go through a set of pads in a weekend, was bleeding brakes after every session, and cracking rotors. Max speed was 100mph. My other local track a set of pads would last 2 weekends, fluid would be bleed once a day, and rotors were a non issue, top speed here was about 155mph. This was in the RX7 on kumho 710's and stock brakes with 3" ducts feeding into the rotor hat.
IMO the OP is still on the right track with the XP8's its a line of pads that can easily grow with him (her?) as he develops as a driver.
Hey Marf, any update on this thread? Lots of good info thrown around about some products from some knowledgeable members. I'm curious of your conclusion after all this time.
Well, finally, I may take the dixcel Z pads... they are more effective when hot and produce way more dust, but they seem OK for a street use, so I will be fine with them.
Still, I'd enjoy to get a review for those Extra Speed pads.
10-14-13, 03:18 AM
