Want to confirm a few things reguarding a TII swap
03-31-06, 12:44 PM
#1
Want to confirm a few things reguarding a TII swap
Alright, I've been doing a lot of searching and reading up on the subject but would just like to confirm a few things. I'm considering a TII swap on my 83 GS. Baiscally to mount the engine and trans in my car I will need to modify a 12a front cover to accept an oil return line from the turbo and use a 12a oil pan correct? Some kind of custom trans mount will need to be made and the shifter rod (whatever you would call that part in the trans) will need to be modified in order for it all to fit and work correctly. The Exhaust and driveshaft will also have to custom made, am I missing anything as far as physically getting everything mounted correctly? If I use a S4 engine I theoretically can use the TII's ECU right cause S4 cars have a mechanical OMP like FB's so theres no issue there right? I've never really worked on a FC, but have had a lot of experience with FB's, so I don't know all the details reguarding the FC engine, is there anything else I'm missing? I'm basically trying (initially at least) to just swap in a stock s4 TII engine and trans and get it running, modifications will come later. Any help would be appreciated, I know theres a lot of guys on here with similar setups
Sean
Sean
03-31-06, 05:38 PM
#4
ah yes, I forgot, the 12a pan will be too short, but the 12a front cover will still work right? Oh and john I've wanted a TII powered FB for a long time, now that the project car is on the road and going good time to put the plan into motion. So am I right about the S4 tII ecu and wiring harness, etc all working fine?
03-31-06, 05:44 PM
#5
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Originally Posted by 82transam
Alright, I've been doing a lot of searching and reading up on the subject but would just like to confirm a few things. I'm considering a TII swap on my 83 GS. Baiscally to mount the engine and trans in my car I will need to modify a 12a front cover to accept an oil return line from the turbo and use a 12a oil pan correct? Some kind of custom trans mount will need to be made and the shifter rod (whatever you would call that part in the trans) will need to be modified in order for it all to fit and work correctly. The Exhaust and driveshaft will also have to custom made, am I missing anything as far as physically getting everything mounted correctly? If I use a S4 engine I theoretically can use the TII's ECU right cause S4 cars have a mechanical OMP like FB's so theres no issue there right? I've never really worked on a FC, but have had a lot of experience with FB's, so I don't know all the details reguarding the FC engine, is there anything else I'm missing? I'm basically trying (initially at least) to just swap in a stock s4 TII engine and trans and get it running, modifications will come later. Any help would be appreciated, I know theres a lot of guys on here with similar setups
Sean
Sean
Tranny mount... Upper S5 with stock lower tranny mount. Drill a hole through the stock mount and place a .5" spacer between the two mounts.
Driveline... stock driveline with modified front shaft. Take it to a driveline shop and give them the dimension from the tranny output to the rear-end flange they will modify it for you. They took less than 1" off my stock shaft. Make sure that you also have the amount of teeth that will be required on the front shaft.
Don't forget all the other little small stuff though...gas tank, bigger fuel lines, FP. Question is how far do you want to go...
And there ya go...thanks for doing some research first. Make it easier for the people answering the questions.
Z
03-31-06, 06:25 PM
#6
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How about a 12A turbo with Megasquirt or boost preped Niki?
Almost as good, but easier.
Lots of people on the forum know about this option. Look at 680rwhp12a's web site
RXDad
Almost as good, but easier.
Lots of people on the forum know about this option. Look at 680rwhp12a's web site
RXDad
03-31-06, 07:12 PM
#7
I have considered the 12a route, but I've kinda got my heart set on the 13bt for this car, maybe i'll go 12at on the other FB when i get this one done 
Z-beater, thanks for the info about the driveshaft and trans mount. What did you do for a fuel system? I forget who it was, but somewhere i read that i could use the 12a gas tank as long as i use a high pressure pump made for FI applications, then someone else said in order to use that I would need a surge tank, how did you go about it?
Also, just to confirm the stock ECU should work right? Thats the impression I got about the S4 stuff, I know the S5 cars have more sensors and and electronic omp, since we can't use that the ecu goes into limp mode or something. Thanks for the responses guys
Z-beater, thanks for the info about the driveshaft and trans mount. What did you do for a fuel system? I forget who it was, but somewhere i read that i could use the 12a gas tank as long as i use a high pressure pump made for FI applications, then someone else said in order to use that I would need a surge tank, how did you go about it?
Also, just to confirm the stock ECU should work right? Thats the impression I got about the S4 stuff, I know the S5 cars have more sensors and and electronic omp, since we can't use that the ecu goes into limp mode or something. Thanks for the responses guys
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03-31-06, 08:31 PM
#8
FB+FC=F-ME
Correct,the S4 ECU is dumber than the S5 and wont go limp.
As far as shear wiring,the S5 is actually simpler since more of the external sensors and boxes are integrated into the ECU.When I changed from S4 to S5,I had much less wiring fab to handle.Not that the S4 was very difficult either,there was just more to do.Using S4 gear allows you to keep the mechanical OMP and run a simple GSL-SE front cover/oilpan combo.The downside is a slower,more rudementary ECU and no convenient check engine system.My S5 required a custom front cover to retain the electronic OMP, but its a slicker,smoother EFI system than the S4 and is easy to diagnose when/if a problem arises.
The fuel system in my opinion is the second biggest hurdle,after the wiring.You can use the 12A tank and an external pump,but youll hate driving with less than 1/2 tank.In a turn(especially lefties),the fuel will slosh away from the unprotected 12A pickup and youll lose fuel pressure.With a carb,that isnt an issue,but with EFI,once the fuel pressure is gone,the engine stops......and if you happen to be boosting,that can be very bad.
The GSL-SE tank has internal baffles and a pickup box to prevent fuel starvation when running an external pump...thats the stock configuration.
Another route you might consider is that the FC fuel tank baffle can be adapted to the 12A tank,and if you go that far,you might as well adapt in the FC fuel pump too.Thats what I did and it works awesome.Basically a copy of the stock FC fuel system,my 400HP capable SupraTT pump is quiet,protected and will suck the tank dry with no problems and no bulky external hardware/surgetanks under the car.
If you can locate an SE fuel tank,the external EFI pump would be the simplest way to go.Might be noisy,and the pump is exposed.
An external surge tank with a 12A fuel tank will also work,but its a more complicated,bulky and expensive route.
As far as shear wiring,the S5 is actually simpler since more of the external sensors and boxes are integrated into the ECU.When I changed from S4 to S5,I had much less wiring fab to handle.Not that the S4 was very difficult either,there was just more to do.Using S4 gear allows you to keep the mechanical OMP and run a simple GSL-SE front cover/oilpan combo.The downside is a slower,more rudementary ECU and no convenient check engine system.My S5 required a custom front cover to retain the electronic OMP, but its a slicker,smoother EFI system than the S4 and is easy to diagnose when/if a problem arises.
The fuel system in my opinion is the second biggest hurdle,after the wiring.You can use the 12A tank and an external pump,but youll hate driving with less than 1/2 tank.In a turn(especially lefties),the fuel will slosh away from the unprotected 12A pickup and youll lose fuel pressure.With a carb,that isnt an issue,but with EFI,once the fuel pressure is gone,the engine stops......and if you happen to be boosting,that can be very bad.
The GSL-SE tank has internal baffles and a pickup box to prevent fuel starvation when running an external pump...thats the stock configuration.
Another route you might consider is that the FC fuel tank baffle can be adapted to the 12A tank,and if you go that far,you might as well adapt in the FC fuel pump too.Thats what I did and it works awesome.Basically a copy of the stock FC fuel system,my 400HP capable SupraTT pump is quiet,protected and will suck the tank dry with no problems and no bulky external hardware/surgetanks under the car.
If you can locate an SE fuel tank,the external EFI pump would be the simplest way to go.Might be noisy,and the pump is exposed.
An external surge tank with a 12A fuel tank will also work,but its a more complicated,bulky and expensive route.
Last edited by steve84GS TII; 03-31-06 at 08:34 PM.
03-31-06, 09:13 PM
#9
REW'd FB
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Well I had it easy. I have a GSL-SE so I did not have to worry about the tank. I used the stock tank with stock pickup fed to an Aeromotive a1000. That then goes from my pump through 6an lines all the way up to the fuel rails. Steve is correct though, I would reccomend baffling that tank one way or another. I used the stock return line for fuel.
I went standalone on the ECU so I can't really give you personal experience on that. Sorry...
A few other things that I thought were important to mention though. These are some small things that tend to be left out...
1. Throttle cable
2. rising rate fuel pressure regulator
4. Battery relocation depending on your setup
Good luck and make sure to keep up posted if this build actually does happen...
I went standalone on the ECU so I can't really give you personal experience on that. Sorry...
A few other things that I thought were important to mention though. These are some small things that tend to be left out...
1. Throttle cable
2. rising rate fuel pressure regulator
4. Battery relocation depending on your setup
Good luck and make sure to keep up posted if this build actually does happen...
03-31-06, 09:57 PM
#10
FB+FC=F-ME
If I might add...
The stock TII throttle cable fits perfectly in the FB chassis,no mods.
If you retain and wire in the stock fuel pump relay/resistor,then a rising rate regulator is not needed,the stocker will handle fuel pressure just fine and the relay/resistor will up the fuel pump output as needed.The unit observes throttle postion,rpms and manifold pressure,then adjusts fuel pump voltage accordingly.Its a very effective system used by many automakers.I still run the stock pressure regulator,even with my 800cc secondaries,SupraTT pump and 14psi of boost from a TO4B hybrid.
Battery relocation is a good trick to open up some space under the hood,in addition to better weight distribution.I used the space under the hood to fit an FC fuse block(HIGHLY recommended for any FB,especially a TII swap),the fuel pump relay/resistor,MSD box and my cooling fan relays.
The stock TII throttle cable fits perfectly in the FB chassis,no mods.
If you retain and wire in the stock fuel pump relay/resistor,then a rising rate regulator is not needed,the stocker will handle fuel pressure just fine and the relay/resistor will up the fuel pump output as needed.The unit observes throttle postion,rpms and manifold pressure,then adjusts fuel pump voltage accordingly.Its a very effective system used by many automakers.I still run the stock pressure regulator,even with my 800cc secondaries,SupraTT pump and 14psi of boost from a TO4B hybrid.
Battery relocation is a good trick to open up some space under the hood,in addition to better weight distribution.I used the space under the hood to fit an FC fuse block(HIGHLY recommended for any FB,especially a TII swap),the fuel pump relay/resistor,MSD box and my cooling fan relays.
03-31-06, 10:09 PM
#11
Alright, thanks a lot both of you, that answers most of my questions. I'm not 100% sure about the trans mount, if either of you have some pics that would help clarify it for me, having a hard time visualizing it. I already have a FC 80amp alternator, and FC fuseblock in this car, and the battery is also already in the passenger bin, so all thats taken care of. Steve, can you give me any more info on adapting the FC fuel pump and baffle to the 12a tank? seems that would be the way i'd wanna go about it. Did you retain the stock size hard lines or do they need to be bigger? Good to know about the throttle cable, if i remember reading correctly the fb speedo cable will work with the tII trans right? Since the TII engine uses coil packs can i still get the FB tach to work? This is all great info, and this project will happen, I'm already scouring the net in search of an engine, or better yet a whole donor car. Thanks guys
03-31-06, 10:59 PM
#12
FB+FC=F-ME
Trans mount is easy,dont stress it.Search a little.
The tach will work fine.
The speedo cable will work fine.
The stock feed line will work fine,just add another stock feed line for the return.Its easy to changeover,just remove the smaller return line and bolt on the new feed line in its place.Hitting a wrecking yard for a feed line is much simpler than bending a new return line from straight,bulk stock.
My FC fuel pump mod has been covered before,try searching.Far as I know,Im the only one whos done it so my name can be used as a search word.Basically youll just need a complete FC fuel tank and a good FB fuel tank.Chop up the FC tank for its internal baffle box and mounting rings,then transfer by welding to the FB tank.The FB tank is just the right depth for it to work.Heres a grainey picture of my tank before install.........
The tach will work fine.
The speedo cable will work fine.
The stock feed line will work fine,just add another stock feed line for the return.Its easy to changeover,just remove the smaller return line and bolt on the new feed line in its place.Hitting a wrecking yard for a feed line is much simpler than bending a new return line from straight,bulk stock.
My FC fuel pump mod has been covered before,try searching.Far as I know,Im the only one whos done it so my name can be used as a search word.Basically youll just need a complete FC fuel tank and a good FB fuel tank.Chop up the FC tank for its internal baffle box and mounting rings,then transfer by welding to the FB tank.The FB tank is just the right depth for it to work.Heres a grainey picture of my tank before install.........
04-01-06, 10:18 AM
#14
REW'd FB
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Better expalnation
Ok I looked through some of my pictures. I hope that this helps.
Picture1: A quick sketch I did out in the shop. You can see the upper mount above the lower mount
Picture 2: Upper mount is in the foreground lower mount is in the background. Remember the lower mount had to be drilled to accept the upper mount. Make sure that it is perfectly in the center.
Picture3: Spacer that goes between the two mounts. Make sure to drill a hole through the center of it so that the upper mount can slip through it and the lower mount. Also take into comsideration that this spacer is way too large. It is about 1.5". This was my initial measurement and was incorrect. In order to have the same pinion angles the spacer HAS to be .5".
Neat stuff Steve...
Z
Picture1: A quick sketch I did out in the shop. You can see the upper mount above the lower mount
Picture 2: Upper mount is in the foreground lower mount is in the background. Remember the lower mount had to be drilled to accept the upper mount. Make sure that it is perfectly in the center.
Picture3: Spacer that goes between the two mounts. Make sure to drill a hole through the center of it so that the upper mount can slip through it and the lower mount. Also take into comsideration that this spacer is way too large. It is about 1.5". This was my initial measurement and was incorrect. In order to have the same pinion angles the spacer HAS to be .5".
Neat stuff Steve...
Z
04-02-06, 01:27 AM
#15
FB+FC=F-ME
Huh,its been a few years now and my memory is cloudy,but I didnt have to do any fab work or welding to make my trans mount work.
I just remember grinding some extra material from the FB mount and drilling holes to mate it up to the TII tailcone.The end result looks just like a stock FB tranny with the stock FB mount,attached to the stock FB crossmember.The only thing thats unusual are the 1" spacers between the crossmember end bolts and the unibody.These are needed for clearance between the tranny top and the tunnel.
Guess its time to get under there and snap some pictures.If you dont have a welder or access to a welder,then my method might be more desireable.....
I just remember grinding some extra material from the FB mount and drilling holes to mate it up to the TII tailcone.The end result looks just like a stock FB tranny with the stock FB mount,attached to the stock FB crossmember.The only thing thats unusual are the 1" spacers between the crossmember end bolts and the unibody.These are needed for clearance between the tranny top and the tunnel.
Guess its time to get under there and snap some pictures.If you dont have a welder or access to a welder,then my method might be more desireable.....
04-02-06, 11:28 AM
#16
REW'd FB
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I want to repeat this just in case someone did not read my entire post. The Spacing shoud be .5".
That being said you do not need to weld the spacers. I just had that resource available to be so that is what I did. Even it you took 2-.25" pieces you would be ok.
That being said I would like to see you setup Steve
*Edit* I found this while searching a while ago. It is a pretty straight forward setup as well. I have no clue who's it was*
That being said you do not need to weld the spacers. I just had that resource available to be so that is what I did. Even it you took 2-.25" pieces you would be ok.
That being said I would like to see you setup Steve
*Edit* I found this while searching a while ago. It is a pretty straight forward setup as well. I have no clue who's it was*
Last edited by z-beater; 04-02-06 at 11:32 AM.
04-02-06, 11:32 AM
#17
I can weld, did lots of rust repair on this car, it was a total tear down and rebuild from the ground up, whole thing is seam welded, and there was lots of rust cut out and patching to do, so welding is no problem. The only thing I won't be able to do myself on this project is having the oil return line fitting welded onto the 12a front cover (or SE front cover if I happen to get one, although I don't see any advantage to it) If you could get some pics steve it would be nice, pics are always good, but no big deal if you don't. I'm good at fabrication etc, once I actually have the TII stuff in front of me I'll figure out how to make it all work
04-02-06, 11:36 AM
#18
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As far as the oil drain here is a little trick where welding is not required. I was told this by a local puerto rican engine builder. You can take a barb fitting and drill a hole through your front cover. Once that is don slip the fitting through the cover and tighten the bolt on the other side. Just make sure that you have good washers on either side so that there is no leakage.
04-02-06, 09:15 PM
#20
FB+FC=F-ME
Originally Posted by z-beater
*Edit* I found this while searching a while ago. It is a pretty straight forward setup as well. I have no clue who's it was*
04-04-06, 09:31 AM
#21
Alright, here's one more question, again I've searched and this is just to confirm. Most of the places I've found 13bt setups for sale have S5 stuff, so I'm thinking I should go that route, its more hp in the end, and newer, better etc. In all the searching I've done is seems the only thing that makes the S5 swap any harder is the electric OMP, other than that it seems about the same. Can you post any pics of how you modded your front cover to use the s5 omp steve? thanks again for all the info
04-04-06, 10:44 PM
#23
FB+FC=F-ME
Its really nothing special.Any machine shop than can work aluminum should be able to handle it.
The main thing is to bring them everything...... the S5 cover so they can see what the end result should look like.....the S5 OMP so they can test fit everything....and of course the GSL-SE front cover on which to perform the mod.
If you lay those 3 items down together its extremely obvious and simple to see what work is required.Also,I do not know if this mod is possible on a 12A front cover.I do know they are different in their bolt hole and oil feed hole postions,so I can only recommend trying this mod on a GSL-SE front cover.
I remember someone a couple months ago was able to do the S5 OMP swap without machine work.They redrilled and tapped the SE cover and the OMP I think, and were able to make it match up.It was recently,so I assume they dont have any long term experience in regard to leaks or anything else.My setup has been in daily operation for over 4 years,so I know its correct and adequate.
The main thing is to bring them everything...... the S5 cover so they can see what the end result should look like.....the S5 OMP so they can test fit everything....and of course the GSL-SE front cover on which to perform the mod.
If you lay those 3 items down together its extremely obvious and simple to see what work is required.Also,I do not know if this mod is possible on a 12A front cover.I do know they are different in their bolt hole and oil feed hole postions,so I can only recommend trying this mod on a GSL-SE front cover.
I remember someone a couple months ago was able to do the S5 OMP swap without machine work.They redrilled and tapped the SE cover and the OMP I think, and were able to make it match up.It was recently,so I assume they dont have any long term experience in regard to leaks or anything else.My setup has been in daily operation for over 4 years,so I know its correct and adequate.
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