MARTIN

That car has nothing additional done to that car... It was suseptable to the same conditions as the others, the si doesn't respond as well to mods as the rsx does... And its not because of the motor, its because of the ecu.....

I really dont care what you believe, but the truth is infront of you... 3 different dyno's and they hit basically the same power.... Even going by your dyno, lets say i/h/e adds 10 WHP(which really doesnt) is that enough to pull three cars on him???

Jager

iTrader: (10)

I beleive you Micah.

I think alot of people have some beef with you now however .

MARTIN

who is micah??

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Strange enough, my rebuild NA Fc is more fun to drive around town than my stock Fd. My Fc has a lot more get up and go than my Fd from a stop odiously mid range is a different story). I guess that's why I like driving the Fc so much. My Fc feels way more torquey from a stop. To reach the take off acceleration of my Fc, my Fd has to hit 5psi boost (and both my turbos are working properly).

Shinobi-X

Removing the filter from the air box = less restriction on incoming air, which equals more power. That much I know for fact...so the car is not "stock", and outside of being a factory freak, it certainly is not some magically efficient vehicle that puts out 199whp off the production line.

I didn't say it was enough to pull 3 cars on him, and actually tried to see if you had a legit point concerning the whp of the civic. The truth is not what you made it out to be though, as your claim that it made 199whp completely stock is bogus. Especially when its reinforced by the other members on the same site who are making numbers in the 18xs at their wheels. I could care less how much the 7 beat the civic by, but I do know for fact that you're hyping the civic more than it should be. Put it together for yourself- even if a car doesn't respond well to mods (like its not the first that doesn't), how are you going to have an intake, header, and exhaust on one, making LESS power at the wheels than a bone stock civic? You can't, unless that "stock" civic also has less restrictions regarding air into, or out of the motor (i.e. removal of the air filter). Run cold air from your air box straight into the motor, and you'll gain more power. I've seen it done on both the dyno, and actual numbers at the track, period.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

wow, I was surprised to read this. Your FD must be close to stock. My vert is sooo damn slow, and it has a freshly rebuilt motor. powerband is like 3k to 6k, if you can call it that. my FD has parallel twins, so I don't see good boost til 4k rpms, but my FD pulls hard at 3k with no boost. I suppose it's a tough comparison to make because my FD is modded out the wazzoo

MARTIN

The car made 193-195 stock..... COMPLETELY STOCK...... 199 was done without the air filter..... What more can I say... I have a friend who dynoed 195 with a cold air, and I still pull on him at top end.... AND IM STOCK.... BTW all those guys I know personally and actually showed up after the other civic dynoed.... SO theres no bullshit there...

Heres the deal.. The car is rated at 197whp from factory, but its really 206. The rsx is rated at 201 but it should be 210...

Shinobi-X

COMPLETELY STOCK fg2 with the removal of the filter... <--that sentence doesn't make sense, as the car can't be stock with the removal of restrictions from the intake path...especially when the car makes 199whp, which 'supposedly' allows no drivetrain loss if the cars are rated at 197whp from the factory (which they are not), and only 7hp drivetrain when rated at 206 (no longer accurate do to SAE standards). Makes me wonder why people see dynos of 18x whp...

Thats due to new testing standards with full accessories, and is rather old. Every car in the Acura lineup saw a decrease in claimed flywheel hp.

BTW, the car is rated at 197hp at the flywheel, not the wheels. Check the noted asterisk (SAE net, Rev 8/04*)

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/...lName=Civic+Si

*For 2006, Honda is complying with the new SAE standard for measuring horsepower and torque, SAE net (Rev 8/04). This new method slightly reduces a vehicle's horsepower rating and torque due to more stringent testing procedures. Many manufacturers are still using the older standard of measurement. Horsepower and torque can only be fairly compared if both vehicles were calculated using the same SAE standard.

MARTIN

How about you read the whole damn thing.... I said he dynoed 193-195 COMPLETELY STOCK!!!!!!! 199 was done with removal of air filter..... Ok yea its a removal of restriction, but the stock air boxes are still there....

and I made a mistake witih the 197whp I meant BHP..... I was so used to putting whp...

Shinobi-X

Perhaps you don't get it, but the following sentence makes NO sense when looking at a dyno chart directly after which shows an Si making 199whp.

^^ It can't be stock with modifications to the air box! This would also explain why he saw a jump in hp...plain and simple. If not, then why do you suppose he removed the filters (which impede airflow)?

Yes, and the stock airbox on most modern cars is built rather well, because they draw air from the atmosphere which is cooler than under hood temps. They also have a "factory" heat shield with the surrounding plastic. Short ram intakes often take in warmer engine air on N/A cars as the motor heats up, while cone filters with piping aren't always the most efficient, sometimes robbing power due to heat soak. Removal of the stock airbox is beneficial because of the filter units therein, but a drop-in filter w/straight pipe has been dyno proven, and track tested to offer gains.

You still haven't explained why the other stock cars dyno 18x at the wheels...

MARTIN

If they dyno at 18x it can be a result of many variables... Im just stating what they are capable off and how its been proven... Guaranteed that Ill strap my car on a dyno and I WILL MAKE 190+.... And I will be doing it by next week... But I just don't see what your argument is... Are you saying they don't make 19x stock?? I don't get what your point is..
Believe me when I tell you that the stock intake system is restrictive... The reason why he made more power is in the a/f... If you notice, on the pull that he made the most power, the a/f ratio leaned out a bit, which provided the gains.... IIRC those 2 pulls were done with the removal of the filter... The MAF sensor isn't consistent with its readings when you modify the airflow...

Shinobi-X

Which amount to what we would call a baseline. These 18x whp numbers are consistent, as seen on runs from many other Si owners. Honda did not build a magical car with the new Si, and it is not a car that produces 200fwhp in stock form, as it leaves the factory.

The way it was 'proven' was simply wrong. By using an example of an Si making 199whp with a modified air box, you cannot say its stock (most of the guys on that page didn't even know what they were talking about)...this is what I'm trying to tell you. How is the car going to dyno with more power to its wheels than it has at the flywheel? You say they are really 206hp cars, but I already showed you the new SAE standard that honda used to rate them, among other cars in their lineup, which all saw power losses do to the use of full accessories which add parasitic loss. Honda is not the only one either, as it happens to other makes. Once again, the civic of all cars, is not unique in this regard.

*For 2006, Honda is complying with the new SAE standard for measuring horsepower and torque, SAE net (Rev 8/04). This new method slightly reduces a vehicle's horsepower rating and torque due to more stringent testing procedures. Many manufacturers are still using the older standard of measurement. Horsepower and torque can only be fairly compared if both vehicles were calculated using the same SAE standard.


Here is further proof of how removing small restrictions effect power output by as much as 5rwhp on a car with a driveshaft and rear axle housing to turn.



Stock airbox tubes


Aftermarket tube




^^ These gains are on a 'stock' airbox with its filters. Your buddies 199whp 'stock' civic is no different...it saw gains due to modifications- lightly modded yes, but don't call it stock.

I'm telling you a lot more see 18x at the wheels stock. I'm also saying that your friends 199whp dyno isn't stock as you stated before. Factory freaks, test which don't use the same SAE standard that honda used, and uncorrected dyno charts also don't apply.

Usually when you have filters removing particles from incoming air, it will be. However, remove those filters, and you will see more direct airflow to the engine.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm

^^ take a read of that link, and you'll understand just why the stock intake system is percieved as restrictive...

I wouldn't suppose the induction of more air into the engine caused him to lean out more than usual...huh? Tell him to put the filters back in, and run the car stock, as it came from the factory, and see what numbers he pulls off.

eds90gxl

I think I want an SI now for some reason, I 'll think about it again.........

MARTIN

Look at the chart guy, dont you see that he wen't lean on the final pull which netted most whp? Both of those runs were made WITHOUT THE FILTER.. With the filter he did a 193/5 IIRC which in this case is COMPLETELY COMPLETELY STOCK.... And you may ask as to why different numbers with removed filter, because the maf is INCONSISTENT.... ITs a common problem with the car, which other people had experienced while modifying the intake.

A baseline can only be used in a per car basis, you cannot do a baseline when there are cars at different elevations, temperatures and dynos... However, in MIAMI, the lowest# I've seen was at 190.

BTW, the srt4 puts more power down to the wheels than what its rated at the flywheel. Is it the only car in the world to do so, no... Am I saying that a civic puts down more to the wheel than it does to the flywheel? no. Does it get rediculously close? Yea...

And BTW, I've known that Honda conforms to the new sae rating system since I bought the car, which is why rsx also went down in power... But since this system is new, you can't accurately compare it to previous models of cars which went by the old system... Which is why I always convert it when we talk about horsepower..

Shinobi-X

So what are you really saying then? Before, you claimed that the Si makes 200whp in stock form. You then posted a 199whp dyno chart as proof, however the guys car had its airbox modified, and the MAF sensor is faulty, hence why he got that number. So given these two variables, how in the world can you claim an Si makes 200whp stock? Meanwhile, most civics without mods see 18x whp, but that is do to a 'host of variables', even though they are all SAE ceritifed?

Its called SAE correction, and when people see similar baseline numbers before the same mods, I'd say it represents a lot more than your 200whp 'stock' claims.

Honda claims 197 at the flywheel, you claimed 200/199 at the wheels, stock. Both of your claimed numbers are greater than the SAE certified flywheel number.

Actually, the SAE J1349 procedures were voluntary on previous models with the same powertrain. Hondas hp claims got humbled by the test, just as other makes did before it. It is rather accurate in leveling the playing field, and would only show a difference compared to previous HP numbers, because they were inflated due to various testing methods. As stated before, the test are designed to more accurately reflect the amount of hp the car actually produces. If the car hasn't changed its powertrain, it can still be accurately compared.

Anti-Rice-Cannon

A great Battle^^^ props


p.s.----2 cars...net gain...not gross...I mentioned that before, but nobody saw it????

MARTIN

I said the the makes 190+ in stock form... And it does... Its been proven by a few different people down here...

I still don't understand your argument... If I were to get 195whp, does that mean that my dyno is garbage because "other" people dynoed less than me??? No it doesnt... AGain, I have seen atleast 6 dyno's in MIAMI with these cars and they all pull similiar numbers AT DIFFERENT DYNOS...

To be honest, your argument is without base. I have personally seen these cars dyno, and they pulled what they pulled... The maf sensor isn't faulty, its just how the car is... Honda's never had a maf in any of its performance models before, and obviously they did a lousy design. So yes, 199 was done with removed airfilter, big whoop.. It still pulled that number and Im happy with the results...

rotorforce

Are we still at this? Is this going to turn into another technical data bullshit thread like the ls1 over in teh lounge?

ahabion

wow, i actually read all 8 pages of this stuff so far... kinda funnee

well here is my .02 cents:

from what i read, a lot of talk about hp and how much a civic puts out, but really, we all know that hp is not all that there is to a drag race... especially when going about 70mph. (nice kill btw)

2 key factors in any race are simply: power and frame

light frame with a powerful engine = ftw

power is not everything, as i'm reading all this crap about hp. i believe that the n/a fc is lighter than the new civics... even if the civic "may" be putting out more power than this particular fc (hypothetical) doesnt really mean automatic win... lighter frame cars with a strong engine can always take on beefier hp cars that are heavy set. ie: your honda crx (b16-20) vs 5.0 mustangs... i've seen crx's pull far too many times on these things its funny... and these little things are pushing anywhere from 160-200+ hp vs the mustang 300+???

laws of physics.

call my BS if you want, but we know its all true. lighter frame+power=ftw.

Shinobi-X

Not if you stop clicking after you lose interest.

Shinobi-X

You also stated, the they make 200whp stock...which was proven to be bogus.

Most civics don't dyno your quoted numbers, prime example being the actual civic which participated in this race.

If you're happy, then thats great- just don't make it seem like the civic rolled off the dealer lot making those numbers when it didn't.

SayNoToPistons

according to Car & Driver. the Honda Civic Si comes with 195 bhp and 139lb-ft .... hmm...

MARTIN

Ok so he made 199 with removed filter... REgardless its a BIG improvement. Im pretty sure that if a 7 posted significant gains with an intake, everyone would be braging about it... Again, different dyno's post different numbers. You cannot compare numbers unless they all dynoed on the same type, with same corrections... The numbers I mentioned were done on two different dynos... 199-200-201 were done on the same one, dynodynamics.

Either way, the civic makes great power stock, and barely modified. A removal of an intake is all it takes to gain a few horses....

Shinobi-X

Like most N/A cars, yep...but sadly at the cost of contaminents getting into the motor.

I'll agree to that.

MARTIN

Well, its the same as when people put a strainer screen infront of the turbo....


Atleast we can agree on something...