enuttage

Getting the 'ol dyno tune down here on Monday, which I'm excited about.

The shop tuning it is recommending race plugs that are gonna set me back $120 for the set.

Right off hand, that seems really steep, but...I'll get 'em in a snap if I find they're worth it.

Any experiences with high end plugs and whether you guys think this is worth my money (and recommendations on why it is or isn't - and alternatives if you don't recommend them?).

My setup is:

PFC
Apex'i RX6
GReddy SMIC
CWR dual oil coolers
Fluidyne rad
Upgraded injectors
DP, MP, exhaust
blah, blah, etc. I think that's the important stuff.

TIA fellas (and gals),

-E

p.s. M, if you're out there, don't take offense. $120 is steep, and I gotta check out my options.

93 R1

Well I'm guessing they are suggesting using 10's or 10.5's Personally I think they aren't gonna do too good if you drive the car daily. they will foul very easily unless you have and aftermarket ignition system.

neevosh

What cold range are they? Are these the NGK race plugs? If you're looking for a cold plug, try the B10EGV or equivalent.

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

Check this thread out.

Ken


https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=153479

RonKMiller

$120 for 4 spark plugs??

Last time I checked they were $7.00 each at Pep Boys for the Platinum.

Gee, let's see: in 10 years of ownership I have never had a spark plug related problem with NGK's, and they last about 10K miles before starting to show any VISIBLE sign of degradation.

For $120 they must be made out of solid gold.

Barnum was right.

Jason

iTrader: (5)

The colder the plug the more money they are. Hence the race plug.

enuttage

Ken,

Thanks for the thread link. A lot of extraneous info. for a guy with my level of knowledge, but helpful nonetheless.

My basic understanding is that I should try out the less expensive plugs before I dive into the $30 a pop kind.

The question is whether I can get them in time for the tune session at 9:00am on Monday.

My understanding is also that the B10EGVs (per that thread and neevosh's recommendation here) may suit my needs well for a first time dyno run on the car. If they're fouled quickly, I'm out $20-25 instead of $120.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, as I'm really very uninformed about what "cold" plugs even are.

Also, if I'm picking up the B10EGVs at the store, do I need anything else in order to put them in my car, or will they pop right in?

Thanks for the help guys, and thanks for the patience...

Barnum is being questioned...thus the post.

No need to get patronizing or condescending.

And though the Responsive Chord would have most believe otherwise, ah nevermind...

David Hannum was right.

-E

spyfish007

Another thought is run the $30 plugs in the leading hole and 9s in the trailing holes. With your setup you should see a difference. You'll need a thin wall socket for the B10EG(V) mentioned above.

adam c

iTrader: (2)

$120 for spark plugs!!! You could buy lots of shares of Enron for that kind of money.

Mazda Motorsports reccommends the NGK BUR9EQP. It is a slightly colder plug than standard. I have had a set in my daily driver for about a year. No problems of ANY kind.

Adam

enuttage

Spyfish, is this what you recommend? Or would you use the better plugs all around.

You partially answered my question, in that you said I'll feel a difference. If I can tell quite a bit of difference with $30 per socket, then I'll do it.

What's the benefit to the better plugs, and the colder plugs? Less chance of misfire?

And what's the downside to the colder plugs? Why are they not as "good" for street driving (which is what I do most, followed closely by autoX).

-E

RonKMiller

My point is: are you getting ANYTHING for your money in terms of increased performance, or is the shop just yanking your chain long and hard. Gee, there could not be a profit motive in their recommendations......or maybe they think this is insurance against blowing an engine?

I had a discussion about this a couple of years ago with a wrench who is an EXPERT on rotaries - he has worked on them for almost thirty years, raced them, and repairs them every day at $100 an hour. I have to assume that he knows what he is talking about. If you are going to be running the engine at extended high speed (as in road racing) sure, you might want to consider going one step colder. If you putt around all day in city traffic you might want to consider going one step hotter. You want to make damn sure the "reach" on the plug is correct as well, since that can have a dramatic effect on performance, not to mention little things like PRE-DETONATION. (but nobody ever talks about reach - just throw in that super-duper irridium Kamakazi brand plug that all the racers are talking about and you'll go faster - who cares if it's 2mm too long?) If your engine cannot handle a standard dyno run without "special racing" plugs you have other tuning issues that need to be addressed.

The real question is will a $30.00 spark plug make more horsepower than a $7.00 spark plug?

I am not trying to be condescending - just asking you to logically think about what you are getting in return for your money.

Barnum said: "The people like to be humbugged."

I think the quote that you MIGHT be thinking of that you attributed to Hannum is "There's a sucker born every minute, but none of them ever die". That was attributed to a notorious con man by the name of Joseph Bessimer aka "Paper Collar Joe". (although Barnum, being the ultimate showman and PR monger never denied having said it)

But here's my REAL point:

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored"
(Huxley)

Oh, and don't forget HIGH TEMP anti-sieze when you install them, and tighten them just "snug" - about 1/4 turn after they seat.

SilvioRX7

Ah yes...Aldous Huxley, very smart man.

spyfish007

These spark plugs will make a difference. I've seen it time and time again. My comment about the B10EG(V) is that people are starting to see similar results with a cheaper race plug .... cost is similar to stock. The trick to the B10EG(V) is the thin walled socket. Regardless at your power level you are going to need a different plug to reach or get near that 400RWHP mark.

enuttage

FWIW, not the necessarily the quote *I* was thinking of, but certainly the one that comes to mind for most.

Thus, my reference to the Responsive Chord...

Regardless, thanks for the more constructive second post Ron.

I spoke with my tuner/mechanic this morning. His reason for wanting to use the plugs is two-fold.

They will, indeed, produce more horsepower according to him, but it'll be negligible (7-10).

His reasoning involved avoiding detonation and some other things that I honestly don't fully understand.

It does sound reasonable to me though, and he also offered to put the plugs in, tune the car, let me run them, and pull them and give me my money back if I'm not satisfied...which is an offer in itself that makes me satisfied.

My engine should be fine no matter what plugs I'm running in it, assuming he doesn't attempt to lean it out too much, which I've stressed is important (I'd rather err on the side of safety). AND Rob Golden built my engine, so I'm confident we're okay on that end of things too.

My mechanic has yet to lead me wrong and I've yet to have one problem with anything he's done to my car.

Sometimes tuners have a tendency to go all out on things that aren't necessary for us folks who aren't full-time street warriors. I was making sure that wasn't the case here.

I think I'm gonna try 'em out, especially after his offer...

-E

enuttage

400rwhp is what my goal is, so...I'm going for it.

We'll see what happens. Look to see dyno sheets no later than Monday night.



-E

SPOautos

I'm running the B10EGV plugs on the street daily and have really liked them. I'm running extremely rich at idle (10.8 a/f at idle!!!) and so far havent had any problems other than one time in Atlanta where I was in stand still traffic for 90 minutes. Even after that they were fine but just not making quite as much power.

Anyway, I really like the plugs and hear you can get them from Advanced Auto for about $4 a plug. You need to gap them at about .022 and like Spyfish mentioned you WILL NEED THE THIN WALL SOCKET.

Metalliman on the forum sells a socket that is modified to work and he sells them from $20 shipped. Here is a link to his for sale post....

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...ghlight=socket

The only prob is I dont think your going to have them before Monday

Oh yea, also just as a comparison I'm running over 400rwhp with them.

RonKMiller

Um, yeah, I think Rob knows a thing or two about engine building.....

Good luck!

adam c

iTrader: (2)

7-10 hp is not negligible. It is also not likely. I suggest that you put in a set of NEW standard NGK plugs, do the test, and then change to the expensive plugs. Then test again. I would be shocked if there is a 7-10 hp gain.

enuttage

Maybe he said 5-7. Don't remember.

Extrapolate though. Why is it unlikely? I'd love to know.

-E

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

Metalliman on the forum sells a socket that is modified to work and he sells them from $20 shipped. Here is a link to his for sale post....

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...ighlight=socket

The only prob is I dont think your going to have them before Monday

I got mine in the mail yesterday. Took a week so unless he can overnight it with Saturday delivery then you will have to grind your own socket or maybe your tuner already has a socket that will work and you can dyno it both ways.

All I know is my car at 20psi with stock 9s misses like crazy above 5.5k rpms and runs okay at 15psi.

I'll be putting the new B105EGVs in tomorrow and I hope the missing goes away at 20psi.

Ken

adam c

iTrader: (2)

I don't have any data. My belief is that spark plugs have developed over decades to their current state. If one maunfacturer found a way to produce a significantly better plug, the others would follow, and the old plugs would become obsolete overnight. I don't think this has happened.

Please let us know what your test results show. Also, try to make sure that the test is done in a fair manner.

Adam

enuttage

Adam,

I'm very likely going to be using the expensive plugs, so I won't be testing against the NGKs. I *will* let you know how the dyno goes though. For all I know I'm in for a treat (hp-wise), but I'm keeping my expectations fairly low until then.

-E

adam c

iTrader: (2)

How about this:

Put in a new set of plugs. Drive the car. See how it "feels". Do the test with the expensive plugs, then drive the car and see if it feels any different.

SPOautos

I personally dont think your going to get 5+ RWhp from plugs, maybe 5-7 at the flywheel.

Of course if you use the WRONG plugs or if you have worn out or fouled plugs your loosing power so in that case throwing in some $120 plugs might make that kind of difference but its not cause they are better

I could be wrong and if you make a run with B10egv's then throw in some 10 racing plugs and make 5+ rwhp from that alone I might consider buying some but I dont think its going to happen.

I think that comparison was made with either worn out plugs or plugs that werent in the right heat range.

Its definatly not going to hurt anything to buy some $20 set of plugs and find out cause it might save you a lot of money.

Also you dont need to go colder than 10's. I'm running 10's with no problem around the same power/boost level your going to be at.....of course tuning is going to play a roll in that I guess

just my .02
STEPHEN

spyfish007

Well the wrong plug is a BUR9EQ ...