using an n380 ECU only for ignition
03-19-17, 03:38 PM
#1
Full Member
Thread Starter
using an n380 ECU only for ignition
Hi, I'm doing a 1st gen project with a 6 port NA engine and a all-in-one EFI kit with no ignition control, and after some ignition issues I'm starting to buy parts to also convert the engine to full on FC style ignition, with CAS and coils from a turbo2 FC. For the ECU I looked around and while the megasquirt is popular, to my understanding over the price of the megasquirt I would have to buy CDI ignition modules like MSD or similar, to actually run the coils, or use the MS3x, so the price would not be very convenient. but maybe I didn't understand.
Anyway I was thinking: since I found from the same seller of the CAS, also the ECU, if I buy that, and connect it only to the CAS and ignitors, would it work? or would only give error codes?
If it works, that would be only 200 euros out of my pocket, and that would be great. Also If I buy something programmable, being myself, I would pass all my time tweaking and playing with that instead of driving and enjoying the car. That was one of the reasons I went for the all-in-one ready-to-run Fitech EFI kit.
I don't care if the timing, the split etc. wouldn't be perfect for NA.. It would be still better than running a distributor.
I hope this is the right section of the forum to ask this and if you want to read about the build, I made a thread in the 1st gen section.
Anyway I was thinking: since I found from the same seller of the CAS, also the ECU, if I buy that, and connect it only to the CAS and ignitors, would it work? or would only give error codes?
If it works, that would be only 200 euros out of my pocket, and that would be great. Also If I buy something programmable, being myself, I would pass all my time tweaking and playing with that instead of driving and enjoying the car. That was one of the reasons I went for the all-in-one ready-to-run Fitech EFI kit.
I don't care if the timing, the split etc. wouldn't be perfect for NA.. It would be still better than running a distributor.
I hope this is the right section of the forum to ask this and if you want to read about the build, I made a thread in the 1st gen section.
03-19-17, 04:40 PM
#2
The ecu spark calculations need the water and air temperature sensor and the airflow meter. You might as well just install the stock ECU and control fuel with it. You can tune it with an rtek 2.1
Basically, it's all or nothing with the stock ECU in my opinion. Control everything with it or control nothing.
It looks like the Fitech can control timing if you buy the right model. Split timing is easy, you can run 15 degrees split at all conditions and it will be fine. You could literally never tune split and the engine would drive ok and still make good power if it is set to 15 degrees.
Basically, it's all or nothing with the stock ECU in my opinion. Control everything with it or control nothing.
It looks like the Fitech can control timing if you buy the right model. Split timing is easy, you can run 15 degrees split at all conditions and it will be fine. You could literally never tune split and the engine would drive ok and still make good power if it is set to 15 degrees.
03-19-17, 05:29 PM
#3
Senior Member
megasquirt 2 controls the stock FC ignition...don't need a ms3 if you want to keep the cost down.think it can be done with a microsquirt also if you use only one trigger i.e. cut two teeth of the 24 tooth cas and make it essentially a 12-1 wheel setup.with the ms2 you will need to add an extra trigger circuit to the proto area of the board though...it's well documented here or run it as a 12-1 setup as mentioned above with one trigger.
Last edited by Nosferatu; 03-19-17 at 05:39 PM.
03-19-17, 06:15 PM
#4
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Thread Starter
Thank you, but what I cannot understand about the MS2 is: how it is connected to the coils? I mean, do I need ANY other stuff other than buying the MS2 ECU to run the ignition if I have the CAS and coils? Sorry but there are so many forums and threads about the megasquirt that becomes almost impossible to filter all the information and find what I need to know. I haven't found a comprehensive complete guide or wiring diagram about it.
I don't remember where, but I read that only the ms3x is able to run the rotary engine ignition without extra components, if is that so, I prefer to buy that than buy an ms2 and then also some other expensive ignition modules... I'm not an ignition expert so some of the stuff goes over my head.
I understand that the stock ECU wants other inputs, but what happens if those inputs are missing? it stops working? it uses a safety timing table? or else? And the megasquirt? it doesn't want any other sensor aside the CAS?
I read about people using megasquirt only for EFI, and keeping the stock ECU on FD RX7s, but not explaining how, and how many sensor they were using, but I guess some trick to do it exists..
I don't remember where, but I read that only the ms3x is able to run the rotary engine ignition without extra components, if is that so, I prefer to buy that than buy an ms2 and then also some other expensive ignition modules... I'm not an ignition expert so some of the stuff goes over my head.
I understand that the stock ECU wants other inputs, but what happens if those inputs are missing? it stops working? it uses a safety timing table? or else? And the megasquirt? it doesn't want any other sensor aside the CAS?
I read about people using megasquirt only for EFI, and keeping the stock ECU on FD RX7s, but not explaining how, and how many sensor they were using, but I guess some trick to do it exists..
03-19-17, 09:05 PM
#6
Short answer is, stock timing maps are based on crank angle sensor and airflow meter signals. I'm not sure what it would do without the airflow signal but it wouldn't be good. Might run way too advanced
water temperature sensor missing will probably retard spark
air temp and other signals are complicated because of the different modes that affect idle timing and accessory loading
read the 2nd gen training manual for more info
water temperature sensor missing will probably retard spark
air temp and other signals are complicated because of the different modes that affect idle timing and accessory loading
read the 2nd gen training manual for more info
03-20-17, 05:14 AM
#7
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Thread Starter
i did read the aaroncake guide, but it doesn't say if I still need temp and pressure sensors to run the ignition with MS2. he uses them anyway for the EFI... I even wrote to him yesterday.. I hope to have an answer someday.
in theory it would be so cheap and easy to do something like this but it seems that I would have to spend a lot of money either way to try out any of the options I got....
in theory it would be so cheap and easy to do something like this but it seems that I would have to spend a lot of money either way to try out any of the options I got....
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03-20-17, 07:17 AM
#8
I agree with argh, the stock fc ecu probably needs most of it's sensors to function properly, even if it's just spark.
Normally I'd think that if you use a fuel only ecu, that you would use a distrubutor ignition from a 1st gen or something like that. If you want electronic programmable ignition it's probably best to not use a fuel only ecu. Anyway, using the fitech for fuel and an ms2 or microsquirt for ignition will work. I'd go with the microsquirt as it comes assembled so it's just wiring.
You can run it without temperature sensors. You could even run it without a map or tps sensor (using just a cas sensor, you do need that one), but then your ignition map would be 2D, and having some sort of load variable is good so you can run some more timing at part throttle. Using either a throttle TPS or pressure MAP sensor will work fine.
You can use the microsquirt with stock coils and igniters, no problem. Info on setting it up can be found here:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Micro...rdware-3.3.pdf
Wiring diagram for the stock coils can be found on Foxed.ca
Normally I'd think that if you use a fuel only ecu, that you would use a distrubutor ignition from a 1st gen or something like that. If you want electronic programmable ignition it's probably best to not use a fuel only ecu. Anyway, using the fitech for fuel and an ms2 or microsquirt for ignition will work. I'd go with the microsquirt as it comes assembled so it's just wiring.
You can run it without temperature sensors. You could even run it without a map or tps sensor (using just a cas sensor, you do need that one), but then your ignition map would be 2D, and having some sort of load variable is good so you can run some more timing at part throttle. Using either a throttle TPS or pressure MAP sensor will work fine.
You can use the microsquirt with stock coils and igniters, no problem. Info on setting it up can be found here:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Micro...rdware-3.3.pdf
Wiring diagram for the stock coils can be found on Foxed.ca
03-20-17, 09:43 AM
#9
yes, most will revert back to the old junky FB ignition.
since yours is an FB i guess just reuse your leftover ignition bits. if you want real control, just get a real management system and forget this whole split computer deal.
since yours is an FB i guess just reuse your leftover ignition bits. if you want real control, just get a real management system and forget this whole split computer deal.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 03-20-17 at 09:48 AM.
03-20-17, 12:41 PM
#10
Senior Member
You can use the microsquirt with stock coils and igniters, no problem. Info on setting it up can be found here:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Micro...rdware-3.3.pdf
Wiring diagram for the stock coils can be found on Foxed.ca
03-20-17, 02:43 PM
#11
I'm pretty sure you can. Unless they disabled it somewhere in the last few months, and I'd be seriously shocked if they did. I used it with stock FC and stock FD crank sensors without issue. Even the RX8's 36-2-2-2 trigger should work.
Another solution for the OP's problem might be to use an ignition only ecu. I don't know a lot of us based companys that offer this, maybe elektromotive, but here in europe I've used this one on carburetted motorbikes: SPARKER TCIP4 - IgniTech P?elou?
It's about $150+shipping for the 4-channel unit which you need, and I think it works with the stock pickup aswell. Downside is though that it's made for 2 or 4-stroke engines, so there isn't a split timing table. You can enter a correction in degrees for each channel though, effectively setting the split timing to a fixed amount. I think most ignition only boxes are like this.
Another solution for the OP's problem might be to use an ignition only ecu. I don't know a lot of us based companys that offer this, maybe elektromotive, but here in europe I've used this one on carburetted motorbikes: SPARKER TCIP4 - IgniTech P?elou?
It's about $150+shipping for the 4-channel unit which you need, and I think it works with the stock pickup aswell. Downside is though that it's made for 2 or 4-stroke engines, so there isn't a split timing table. You can enter a correction in degrees for each channel though, effectively setting the split timing to a fixed amount. I think most ignition only boxes are like this.
03-21-17, 02:27 PM
#13
Full Member
Thread Starter
Another solution for the OP's problem might be to use an ignition only ecu. I don't know a lot of us based companys that offer this, maybe elektromotive, but here in europe I've used this one on carburetted motorbikes: SPARKER TCIP4 - IgniTech P?elou?
It's about $150+shipping for the 4-channel unit which you need, and I think it works with the stock pickup aswell. Downside is though that it's made for 2 or 4-stroke engines, so there isn't a split timing table. You can enter a correction in degrees for each channel though, effectively setting the split timing to a fixed amount. I think most ignition only boxes are like this.
It's about $150+shipping for the 4-channel unit which you need, and I think it works with the stock pickup aswell. Downside is though that it's made for 2 or 4-stroke engines, so there isn't a split timing table. You can enter a correction in degrees for each channel though, effectively setting the split timing to a fixed amount. I think most ignition only boxes are like this.
To answer all the people who rightfully say to convert everything to megasquirt, at this point I've already bought and installed the Fitech EFI, so there's pretty much no turning back. The reason for my choice is that the car came with the 6 port 13b, with a holley carb, so in order to put a megasquirt I would had to buy all the manifolds, throttle body, injectors.. and all that on top of the cost of the kit itself. Some would argue that it would still be less than the 900€ of the fitech, but I think not.
If the guys from Ignitech will say that their ECU is not suitable, then I will probably stay with the distributor and using only the FC ignition coil for the DLDFIS and keep the other parts for a future project.
03-21-17, 04:27 PM
#14
I was talking about the Megasquirt 2 and Microsquirt. They both use the same MS2Extra firmware so they can do the same stuff.
The ignitech can be made to work, but there are two things that need to be figured out to make it work on the FC. There are a number of ignition trigger settings in the software but I can't seem to find a 12+1 setting. Maybe they can add it or configure it another way. Worst case you have to modify the crank angle sensor by removing two lobes or the bottom 24-lobe ring. Then you can set it up as a 12-1 which is supported. I think that's what I would do.
Secondly the FC uses a wasted ignition coil for the leading spark plugs. You can use this by wiring ignition output 1 and both 3 to this same coil. The trailing coil cannot be used, since the FC uses different signals (a trigger signal and a select signal). You can use 2 seperate coils for this, or modify the stock trailing coils so it uses external igniters.
So it's cheaper and simple, but not all plug and play, some goofing around required.
The ignitech can be made to work, but there are two things that need to be figured out to make it work on the FC. There are a number of ignition trigger settings in the software but I can't seem to find a 12+1 setting. Maybe they can add it or configure it another way. Worst case you have to modify the crank angle sensor by removing two lobes or the bottom 24-lobe ring. Then you can set it up as a 12-1 which is supported. I think that's what I would do.
Secondly the FC uses a wasted ignition coil for the leading spark plugs. You can use this by wiring ignition output 1 and both 3 to this same coil. The trailing coil cannot be used, since the FC uses different signals (a trigger signal and a select signal). You can use 2 seperate coils for this, or modify the stock trailing coils so it uses external igniters.
So it's cheaper and simple, but not all plug and play, some goofing around required.
03-22-17, 01:12 PM
#15
Senior Member
As John H. suggests microsquirt @roughly $350 or so with harness sounds like the best bang for the buck...looking into it the newer V3 microsquirt, it has the max9926 chip so no need to modify the CAS and that chip has superior noise filtering over previous megasquirt /microsquirt circuits.. just use the Fitech efi throttle body and injectors no need for the stock manifolds...one solution that does fuel and ignition with minimal work..no cutting teeth on cas ,split timing etc. ...a small premium over a bandaid ignition...better off to run the stock ignition if you are hung on that fitech efi.
03-22-17, 04:15 PM
#16
Full Member
Thread Starter
I'm waiting for the response from Ignitech, but I think they'll never answer.. I'll give them a week
However, after a lot of thinking about, I agree about the microsquirt, you guys convinced me.
Once the EFI is running decently with the stock ignition I will get a microsquirt, a MAP sensor, and start the conversion.
However, after a lot of thinking about, I agree about the microsquirt, you guys convinced me.
Once the EFI is running decently with the stock ignition I will get a microsquirt, a MAP sensor, and start the conversion.