Twin Turbo Kits.
 

The twin turbo kits are available from Incon (www.inconturbo.com), whose website is available.

The pricing is as follows (sourced from: www.forcedinduction.com ) Please note, however, that the prices do not include installation.

Updated: 4-26-00

Kit Manufacture: Incon Systems
Vehicle: Chevrolet Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Pontiac Trans Am
Type Of Power Adder: Intercooled Twin Turbo kit

NEW PICTURES ADDED!! CLICK HERE TO SEE THE PROTOTYPE CAR, Pictures taken by Jason (Fast Orange) ( http://www.forcedinduction.com/ls1pics.htm )


The venture between Incon and its consumers for the LS1 kits has gone quite well. Its It has actually gone well enough that Incon is going to produce 3 stages of the LS1 kit.
These kits are outlined below:

Stage 1 Kit
(450rw) $4500 Stage 2 Kit*
(550rw) $5500 Stage 3 Kit*
(700rw) $7000
* Twin BB Turbos
* Cast headers and dumps
* Twin intercoolers
* Twin cold air intakes
* Custom molded silicon ducting
* Braided Teflon fluid lines
* Aerospace hardware.
* Intank Fuel Pump
* Y-pipe
* Fuel Regulator
* Stage 1 Plus:
* Engine Managment Unit
* Fuel Metering Alterations


* Stage 2 Plus:
* Fuel Injectors
* Fuel Rails
* Fuel Plumbing
* Intake Manifold


*REMEMBER THESE KITS ONLY INCLUDE THE FUEL EQUIPMENT NECESSARY FOR
THIS POWER LEVEL!! Hard parts in your longblock are not included!

Nah, no one cares. :)

That's just the "test" motor, by the way...

Sounds like someone was tring to say that a rotary is inefficient. That is about the biggest bunch of BULLSHIT I have ever heard. They are so inefficient that you can exract just as much horsepower out of a 1.3 liter as you can a 5.7. And no matter what you say yes you can. I don't see many people running 7.52 in the quarter on a 5.7 liter small block, yes it can be done, but these engines are extreamly expensive $25,000-$50,000 range and very unreliable. You have to resleve every cylinder new pistons, rings, rods, bearings, valve springs, and etc. Basically every moving part but the crank. Now I'm sure a rotary this radical needs new seals after a run like this but that is quite abit less than the whole motor. Nevertheless my point is rotaries are very efficient at extracting power per liter.:p

Jim I have a question, you seem to be a V8 expert so I'm sure if anyone around here can answer this it will be you.

Realistically how much power can be had from a BONE STOCK daily driven z28 motor with one of these forced induction kits like TT, SC, or NOS.......I'm talking factory pistons, heads, cam, lifters, rings, ect ect ect. The kits say "X" amount of power is capable from the kit but thats doesnt mean you can reliabaly do it with a Stock motor.

If the motor is capable of running 600rwhp stock then why doesnt everyone just bolt on a 300hp shot of NOS????

I know when I visit the LS1.com forum there are NOT very many people running and talking about these kits and when they do it seems as thought they are having probs with the kits. I've noticed on the board that the LT1's seem to be doing better with forced induction than the LS1.....dont have a clue as to why though.

Anyway, I thought maybe you could shine some light on this for me. I live in the middle of V8 land and its always good to know about the other team :D

Later,

Now imagine how efficient they'd be if the combustion process finished inside the engine and not in the exhaust.

By the way, there are engines smaller than 5.7 liters that are in the 6s, let alone 7s... check out an issue of Fast Fords & Mustangs sometime.

Realistically, on a bone stock Z-28/Firebird LS1, the most nitrous you should reasonably use would be around 100-150 hp. That goes for almost any stock internal engine. More than that and you put an excessive strain on the bushings. All-out nitrous motors are often built with aluminum rods to absorb some of the "hit". You can run more stock, but you run the very real risk of windowing your block. Nitrous Warehouse has several kits for these cars, but will probably recommend 150 horsepower as a maximum. The owner's LT5 ZR-1 got a 225 horsepower shot, but the LT5 is a stouter motor (and a completely different design than the LT1 or LS1) and made 405 horsepower to begin with.

For a supercharger kit, the most you can reasonably get away with on a stock motor is about 8 psi, give or take. If the heads were changed, you could shift static compression lower and run more boost, but for a stock engine, 6-8 psi is about it, and 6 psi is probably closer to what most base supercharger kits run. Realistically, you're looking at about a 100-150 horsepower gain, possibly. Vortech states a 30-50% increase, which is about right. Just a cam swap would make a big difference in any of these motors.

For a turbo kit, boost is still in the 6-10 psi range limit on stock internals, but you can get more horsepower out of the engine because the parasitic losses of the supercharger setup aren't a limitation. It is possible to get a 175+ horsepower gain from a stock block, I'd assume, since the Turbo Technology kit makes about 480 horsepower at the wheels, and many stock LS1 Z-28s are putting down 300-305 RWHP stock. The LT1 kits will make less power, because the LS1 intake and heads are much better flowing designs when stock.

There are LT1 and LS1 cars making more than 600 RWHP, but I'd put money on the fact that the bottom end has been rebuilt, even if displacement wasn't changed much (0.030" overbore to 355 cid, for example), and that some fairly serious porting has been done to their heads. :)

Some of you guys need to back off a little bit. Jim's been into rotories a long time, and is well known in the rotary community.

I only have an inkling of what he's done, as that I'm relatively new myself - but if you dig deep you'll find Jim popping up many years back, See Steve Cirian's web site for contributions that Jim's made.

While some of us here wish we knew how to change oil, Jim has done it all when it comes to rotories. I know he's rebuilt his own engines (heck, his WHOLE car) and you really need to see some of his work. His attention to detail is apparent.

I know he made a calculated decision to do the swap (and probably knew he was going to get heckled by some), and given his back ground with rotaries - I respect that. Not as if he's some redneck that happens onto a FD oneday, and says, "huhhuh, that thare needs uh V8!"

As another pointed out, he's after something we all are envious of whether we care to admit it or not - full torque (and plenty of it)not too far off of idle. I mean the kind of torque that will obliterate whatever poor tire that may be mounted to the rear wheels. His choice in achieving this maybe open to debate, but if anybody is going to invest the time and research and do it RIGHT - it's going to be Jim.

Would I do a V8 swap? No. The uniqueness of the rotary engine is big part of the ownership for me, and I'm willing to put up with everything that rotary ownership entails. I personnally will never push the limits of my engine, so my choice is right for me. I hold out to the belief that one day I will be able to afford a 3 rotor conversion (that is ridiculously priced by the few that do them, but thats another story....).

For those that push the limits (and beyond) like Jim, they have to make a decision that is correct for them. Let's respect that.

Group hug!

What would you call it? You couldn't call it an RX anymore.

LT7?

Chevza?

Something unpostable?

I would and do call it lost faith.

Get a better muffler, and I promise you it wont sound like an outboard motor....

Thanks Jim, I knew you would shoot straight with me. I've been under the impression for quite some time that 100-150rwhp is about the most you can reliabaly squeeze out of the engine. Thats why I debated about the 600rwhp claims for $3500!!!!!

On a side note I saw a SS at the track that was running high 10's NA!!!!! It had a stroker kit that pushed it up to a 427 or something outrageous like that......not the normal 383kit. I cant imagine it would be very reliable but it sure did hauled some ass and sounded mean as hell!!!!!!!! Seems like he told me there was about 15K invested in the car. Custome machining work done on the heads, block, and seems like something else as well.....I'm sure he had a fat machine shop bill as your no doubt familiar with since you have those beautiful heads!!!!!!


Later,

In the old days cars with swapped engines were called hot rods.

I like "HOTROD7". Makes a nice license plate to me.

v8 is FD, dumbest bloody thing I haev ever heard. rotary is much more reliable and weighs infinitely less. You could never get a V8 FD to perform well in handling, or as good as FD. Poeple who stick them in have no appreciation for what makes an FD a great car. stick a v8 in it and it becomes no better than some H framed camaro sporting a mullet.

I think JIMLAB's will be infinitely better than any Camaro.

Jim I am not trying to put you down for what you are doing. I was just saying that for a rotary to be capable of the power per liter it must be a fairly efficient engine.

Also I am a very big fan of the small block chevy engine. It is one of the greatest engineered motors. And the changes that GM has made over time have only made it that much better. This basic design has powered many race cars for around 20 years. The introduction of the SB2 into NASCAR has made a great engine even better. Then the engineering going into the LS1. A new generation of well engineered engines.

I would never put down either of these engines or any one who puts either engine in whatever the hell they want to. I suppose some of the peoples views on this forum are similar to what the Ford guys thought when people put small blocks in old hot rod Fords.

To be perfectly Honest I have a small block chevy stroked out to a 383 in my jeep. That @#%$ing thing will almost break your freeking neck. I have never run it against my FD but I would bet it would beat the FD. But I would never even try to take it out side of town. Hell a couple of passes down the main drag and there went $10 in gas.
Well I didn't want you to think that I thought bad of you. (If you even cared?)

You're right, it's not really an RX-7 any longer. I have Efini badges front and rear, but no other exterior markings. The Mazda is long gone from my front brake calipers (polished) and even those will be gone once my AP brake kit shows up. My door sill plates are being flattened and repolished, and the RX-7 symbol is gone. My floor mats have no insignia (sweet aftermarket mats from Mazdatrix, now no longer available). I have an Efini steering wheel, so I don't even have a Mazda emblem on the air bag cover (or the air bag). There is nothing on my car, short of the VIN number, that gives it away as an RX-7... and that's just the way I wanted it. Even before I chose to put a V8 in it.

I was never proud of having paid $40,000+ (after tax and license) for a Mazda. Sure, it was one of the best (if not the best) Japanese sports cars, but the Mazda name is so tarnished that everytime someone found out what it actually was (after making several flattering but incorrect guesses) they looked like I shit on their shoes... oh, it's a Mazda. That's right, it's a Mazda. One of the most reviled names in automotive history from a resale point of view, in my opinion. The Supra guys claim "Lexus-like" build quality... what do we claim? We rebadge the thing so no one will know (as if they did in the first place) what it really is. Tell me, honestly, and look me in the eye, that you don't LIKE having someone mistaking your RX-7 for something more expensive, and arguably with more prestige... riiiight.

Some of you bought into the RX-7 history. I didn't. I could care less about the heritage of the car (unless a long heritage means a large support base and aftermarket, something we don't have... but the LT1 sure as hell does) or how many Le Mans wins their racing team has. What I want is something fast on the street, and no number of Le Mans victories is going to help me kick the ass of the guy in the other lane unless I pump up what Mazda delivered from the factory. Because like it or not, the car wasn't even the king of horsepower in its day... and its day is over. My '95 is 7 years old, although it still has 13,000 miles on the odometer. The first of the 93s to hit the States are now 9+ years old. Without a lot of modification, the car is not a contender for most of the newer sports cars, even those that are (in new form) cheaper than the RX-7 when it was new.

I didn't lose faith, I never had it to begin with. All I wanted was something fast. I made it faster. It broke. Repeatedly. And the next step, for the power I wanted, and with some margin of reliability, was to spend an egregious amount of money on a 20B, which shares all the same weaknesses (at least I see them that way... some of you seem to think they're bonuses) of its little brother. You may not have to push the engine as hard to make more horsepower, but it still has all the failings of the 2-rotor version, which doesn't seem like a logical "upgrade" to me. Still, I was more determined to go down that path than a lot of you that just TALK about 20B upgrades... even going so far as buying a 20B, tearing it down, preparing to have it rebuilt, and then stumbling on the dillema of giving money to Pettit (I've got a thing about people who rebrand other's products and then mark them up 150%, not to mention a negative experience with them very early in my RX-7 ownership) for a subframe, or finding another source. PFS' solution seems to be cutting the firewall, something even I won't do to my car. SR Motorsports promised a cheaper subframe that didn't have the steering rack problems... for whatever reason (water under the bridge), they didn't deliver, and wasted 3 months of my time in the process. So I sold the 20B. I didn't lose faith, it was just a matter of practicality, and what I was willing to do to put one in the car. Paying $2,100 to Pettit for a subframe for the privilege of putting a 20B in the car apparently wasn't one of the things that I was willing to do.

I even looked into converting it to a dry sump oil pan. Adding $3,500+ on to the already steep cost of the conversion wasn't practical. And yet it wasn't even the cost that was an issue, it was the availability of parts, and the lack of close sources for some of the custom things that would have to be made to complete the installation. I don't have a KD Rotary or M2 Performance right next door. I have Hayes Rotary, and I wouldn't even trust them with a stock FD.

So I shelved the "project" for awhile longer. And came across an article in Vette magazine about a 409 cid LT1 that TPIS built that made ungodly power. So I started researching the LT1 (late model, '92-'96) aftermarket, and found that they have a huge support base, huge source of aftermarket parts at reasonable prices (I've since thrown the budget out the window, though and once again, I'm going beyond what even they've done) and since drag racing is and has always been my only vice, with the occasional street race thrown in, torque is KING. The more cubic inches the better, and I wanted to reduce weight and simplify the system at the same time, so really my only limitation was that the engine had to make as much power as possible naturally aspirated, while still duplicating, to some degree, the nature of the rotary power plant (to attempt to preserve the spindly rear suspension, even though the differential and axles will have to be upgraded), and the rotary redline. I added another gear while I was at it. Bulletproof wherever possible. Reduce weight wherever possible. My engine is probably 50 lbs. lighter than your average LT1, possibly more. My car was already 100+ lbs. lighter than your average RX-7, due to several weight elimination mods and "sacrifices" that I had already made.

So if you can improve the reliability of the power train, add a gear, give the car true 200+ mph capability, increase horsepower 2 fold and torque almost 3 fold, and have more of it at lower rpm, increase fuel economy, maintain weight balance and keep the reduced curb weight of the car, that's where my faith lies... being the fastest damn thing on the street, regardless of engine manufacturer. And with a 4:1 power to weight ratio, there's a pretty good chance that there isn't anything else around even close. I kept the good looks of the car, and I've gone to great lengths not to junk it up, modify anything including the hood, or to change the interior. In fact, except for a "6" on the gear shift, and a 240mph speedometer, and the black roll cage that was blended in and integrated with the stock interior, there's not much difference from a factory RX-7. But I have, for MY purposes, vastly improved on what I originally bought.

It's not for everyone, and I have never tried to push anyone to do the same. If the RX-7 weren't so horribly impractical, even as a second car, I'd probably own two, one rotary, one V8. I've bashed some of the things that I see as shortcomings with the rotary engine and RX-7 in general, but don't mistake that as bashing from a "V8 lover". I'd have the same complaints if rotaries were all I lived and breathed. However, this is a valid alternative to people who (for whatever reason) are tired of dealing with the potential headaches of rotary ownership, love the car, but don't want the hassle, and don't have the checkbook to keep replacing motors. Because good maintenance and careful monitoring aren't even enough to keep a turbocharged rotary alive 100% of the time. Even someone with a fully tuned (Mandeville) Motec car at STOCK boost, lost an engine, despite 3mm ceramic apex seals. (which believe it or not, only give you a few more pings than the regular seals... the money is better spent on fuel management, in my opinion) If it can happen to them, it can happen to anyone. If it can happen to a bone stock car too, it can happen to anyone. The number of posts I've seen in the last four years on the RX-7 mailing list and now on the RX-7 Forum on motor loss and warranty replacement should give even those who seem to think the rotary is perfect cause for just a little doubt...

Do what you want with your car, after all it is your car. But don't badger me (or other V8 conversion owners) with your ignorant comments about weight or balance, or about V8s being "shit", or "if you had to go V8, why not at least use a BMW/Lotus/Whatever V8". If you think that's the right answer, then you know where to start on your own car. But while your opinions are your own, they're not worth much to someone who has already gone through or has decided to go through the conversion. They've had enough, and it's highly unlikely that anything you can say is going to change their minds. Just like it's highly unlikely that anything I say is going to change yours about keeping your rotary... the difference is, I'm not trying to talk you into eliminating your rotary motor. I'm paving the path for people who (for whatever reason) want to keep the car, but lose the problems. And believe it or not, there are people who want to keep the car for its styling, yet don't care what's under the hood.

So what are you afraid of? That everyone will convert to Chevrolet V8 power? Guess that'd make your rotary-powered FD worth all that much more, being the highly modified and high mileage collector's item that it is, right? :)

There's a college guy (read: low budget), who is in the mid/low 10s, NA, with an 396 cid LT1-powered Z-28... Jordon Musser.

http://velocityracing.com/camaro/

There's also a 4th gen. Corvette (C4) owner who's car is named "Hoover" (web site is apparently down last time I checked), who is well in the 10s on a naturally aspirated 401 cid LT1.

And believe it or not, there have now been naturally aspirated LS1 cars in the 9s. With 427 cid TRUCK (iron block) LS1s... :)

But for 10 second performance from any car, you can expect to pay a bundle, and for most cars you can expect that will include having the engine opened up. Chevy and Ford don't overbuild engines like (apparently) Toyota did with the Supra. It's not surprising that you'd have to replace internal parts, because like with the RX-7 (fuel system, especially), they were only built to make a specific amount of power for a specific amount (warranty limit, obviously) of time. There's no money to be made by overbuilding the engines, when 99% of the people who buy the cars won't ever use the increased strength (or care). :)

That was in response to people who say "but you have to open up the V8 motor to make X horsepower". Well, duh! Like they build each Camaro to handle 600 RWHP? Riiight. And still maintain the $25k price tag? That'd be a bargain and a half. :)

I was just pointing out that the rotary, as efficient as it is for its size, could be more efficient yet. :)

Yet another expert on the subject... *sigh*

So, expert, you're telling me that if weight is kept even below an FD base model, and 50/50 weight balance is maintained (which only makes the car corner neutrally, and doesn't necessarily make it corner better than a car without "perfect" weight balance, which can be compensated for by corner balancing the car...) that you're destroying "what makes an FD a great car"?

OK, thanks for playing. Come back when you've got an arguement based on actual facts.

HOT DAMN JIM, your day job must involve alot of writing...

Although my 2nd motor has been reliable for the last 37K, even at 12 psi, PFC, DP, PFScatback, M2large, I'm looking for more torque and better fuel economy in a couple of year. [It'll be like another 5 because I have a spare motor (10K on it) that I bought 5 years ago when my first motor blew]

Now, my question to you Jim is, can you get the LS1 or LT1 to fire like two four cylinder engines ? If you can, this would be the perfect motor as it would scream like 3/4 F355 instead of that uneven firing order of a GM V-8.

You should document the whole project and put it on-line.

Hey, it has been more than two months for the bushings ... any progress?

KICK A$$ JIM!
 

Kick butt. No doubt about it. I can't wait to hear more about the finished product.

No matter what the narrow-minded asses might say, you have done no more wrong than the guys that modify the exteriors of their FDs (nothing wrong with that either).

Now I understand why you don't have time to build me any suspension bushings! ;)

jimlab:

Sorry that in your area no one repects the RX... or Mazda. It has always been the opposite for me living both in Southern CA and now Northern CA.

And RX7s are becoming a very exclusive car.

All the people I meet are wondered and amazed by the RX7. The FC and FDs are still some of the best looking cars out there, (if they don't get too riced with Supra spoilers and wings and crap).

But I can understand your point...Your conversion... its not for me... If I wanted a V8 I would have bought a vette and lived with the vette asshole teasing. The style of the current vette does have RX7 inspired lines. Maybe it would be easier just to get the vette?

Yes, easier, but not rare. I like rare. V8 in an FD is really rare.
I love my brother's FC V8. An FD V8 is even better to me. I'm sticking with the rotary for now. We'll see what happens. Hope it lasts for me. I'm spending enough $$ on it.

Ken

Hey Jimlab,


What kind of 1/4 mile do you think you will be able to run with that V8? What kind of HP and torque? Is that with or without bolt-ons?

And if you make bushings, I may be interested. Is there a thread on the board I should look at?




Petros

Well I'm not sure if this answers your question but, GM changed from their 18436572 firing order some time ago. They now use a sequencial fire. And Jim I will be interested to hear how everything works out. Also How in the hell did you get the LT1 to fit. Did you have to modify the subframe to get it to fit

Yeah, I should.

Actually, it's been about a month and a half, since the last of the payments straggled in at mid-July, after the cut off of July 6th. When you're dealing with hundreds of pounds of Nylon, you need to know how many people are actually in, so the Nylon wasn't purchased until I had a solid count. It's not returnable. :)

About a month and a half, and they're making over 4,500 individual parts of Nylon and stainless steel. Estimate is for end of month to mid-October, which beats the last guys hands down, if they can deliver. Last run was for 1/3 as many bushings and took over twice as long... :)

I have good faith that we'll be seeing them around the middle of October as promised.

We (Granny's Speed Shop and I) developed a custom subframe which is lighter than the OEM cradle...

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?...638&p=48291466

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?...638&p=48291392

There's plenty of room in there. The late model LT1 is very compact. :)

Well, the 3rd gen. is very common around here. I don't think a day goes by when I don't see at least one, usually MBM or VR. Then again, on a nice day around here, you can't hardly step into the street without stepping on a Modena or F355. :)

And as for the Corvette... I'm trying to track down an '02 Z06 as we speak. :)

No idea on quarter times until we tune the engine on the dyno and see what it actually makes. We'll have calculated estimates once the heads and intake have been finished and we have concrete flow numbers, but until then I can only speculate. 650+ horsepower isn't unreasonable, and ~600 ft. lbs. of torque, over a very broad band. The motor is stroked to 396 cubic inches.

Horsepower may be higher... hard to say, since no one has ever built a motor like mine before, not even in the F-body/Y-body camp. Not to this extreme, anyway, and not with this combination of parts. The engine will have an imposed 8,000 rpm redline, but could easily spin higher, if I weren't concerned with making the car relatively streetable. Everything is light weight (titanium valves, ultra light 38 lb. crankshaft, ultra light 505 gram rods, etc.) and most of it is not off the shelf.

The bushings are on their last production run... I have a couple sets left that I'll be auctioning off, probably, but that's it. All the rest have been spoken for from this last run. Details are here...

http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlab

My predictions are 1/4 mile in the 9s if the re holds up. Good luck with all that low end torque.

Ken

just a question...is that legal for street use? if u runnin 9's it cant be... i like the FD because hardly anyone has them, they are great for handling and if u keep them stock, maybe cb and dp, im sure they wont die on you too fast... i dont know, as long as u dont actually buy a v8 car i dont care at all, just dont pop ur hood around to many "rotary enthusiats" hehe just tell them u have a turbo u could sitck ur head in =) LOL, man i crack myself up, oh well have fun.

Damn!!! I really can't believe how closed minded some people are. I myself am really looking forward to doing this conversion. After some of the problems I've had with mine, I think an LT1 would better suit my needs. More torque and more power. please don't give me shit about getting a camaro. I think the looks of an FD and an NSX is the best any company has offered for there price. I love the looks of my FD and would love to have a 10 sec streetable car, or at least an 11 sec. I can easily sell my engine, tranny, clutch, flywheel, DP, intake, power FC, and other samll parts for $3000. Mine won't be as nice or as fast as jimlab's but my goal is to be in the 10's and I don't think it'll be that hard:)

You'll probably need 450rwhp to get into the 10s. 60' times should be awesome. My brother's FC V8 Chev with only 350bhp does that in 1.7 on street tires. The RX7.com guys I hear use NOS at the start and they get about 1.55 60' times. I bet JIMLAB with slicks could be lower than 1.4 in the 60' time. Probably break something trying.

" your installation looks very clean." Nice work on your crossmember but I was wondering if you moved the rack altering the suspention geometry.

No, they didn't - see Granny's website
http://www.grannysspeedshop.com/

Jim, please tell theirweb guy to PLEASE stop using frames so I can give direct link.:p

It wouldn't be legal for street use if it ran 15s... no catalytic converters and no air bags. "But they don't gots to know that..." :)

No, that was one of the prime reasons why I wouldn't put a 20B in the car without finding a better solution to the steering rack issue. I'm a lot more concerned about the handling of my car than everyone gives me credit for, even if I am a drag racer at heart. :)

An OEM engine subframe (mine) was used to make a welding jig, and from that the subframe was fabricated. It bolts to all the stock points on the frame, the steering rack bolts right up (as you can see), and nothing has been relocated and no cutting or welding is required.

hi jim,

I don't want this comment to generate into a international war - but something I've never understood is this ;

In Australia the Rotary is *not* considered to be unreliable. At least , not from the automotive crowds that I hang out with.

Whilst most people would agree that the rotary is more fragile than a good quality piston motor, whether it be a v8 or a 2jz-gte, the general consensus is that they are a good strong little motor that copes well with lots of hard use i.e. high revving etc.

On the other hand, in these forums I see nothing but comments on how 13b's blow up all the time, how if you start getting good power from a rotary that you should have some money left aside for a new motor/rebuild and all sorts of things like that. You stated this yourself in one of your messages.

But the problem is - I just don't see it happening over here. Is there a difference with the familiarities of rotaries in australian rotary workshops compared to american rotary workshops? Rotaries are very popular down here for drag racing, you can go to the drags each wednesday night at eastern creek raceway in sydney and usually see many rotaries running in the 8's to low 11's. These are a mix of RX7's & older rotaries like RX3's.

Perhaps it is something to do with the fact that there are some fantastic ECU's produced locally in Australia such as Motec/Haltech.

I'm not doubting that if you pump 600hp through a 13b that you'll eventually have to rebuild it - but it's the sheer frequency of rebuilds/new motors that you listen to in this forum that is the surprising thing.

I know quite a few people with 3rd Gen's, here is my experiences with the life of the motor.

* My own one - motor overheated at 106,000 km's due to first catalytic convertor getting blocked. Car was purchased in 1992, motor overheated in 1999.

* A friend of a friend - single turbo conversion on the car when it was 12,000 km's old. Running approximately 450hp at the motor with a haltech e6k. Car is now on 110,000km's and was purchased in 1995. Still original motor and feels fresh.

* A friend - 1992 model, made 126,000km's on stock motor before the car overheated due to a problem with the coolant system at a track day in very hot weather last november.

* Another friend - 1996 model, has done 168,000 km's (not a typo) and is still on original motor.

* Last but not least, a 1995 "RX7 SP" (factory modified limited edition), 77,000 km's and just recently had a compression test in preperation for selling and was flawless.

I hope you see my confusion now - on this board I hear talk of people putting their 3rd/4th motor in - but we just don't see that down here - at least not in the circles that I frequent.

cheers

Gav

Alot of it probably has to due with the lack of knowledge for the rotary. Most people is the US only know it exist and know nothing about the motor. I bet within 500 miles of me there are only a few shops that really know how to work on a 3rd Gen and REALLY know what its all about.

What type of maintenance schedule do you guys use. How ofter do you change things like oil, coolant, fuel filters, ect.... what brand/type oil do you use? Do you guys add a pre mix in the fuel? Maybe there are some differences. One thing is I dont think yours has the pre cat like ours does and that is one of the major probs with the car, it causes a ton of heat.

What is the conversion from KM's to Miles

Thanks,

My first engine failure wasn't caused by previous abuse (I bought my '95 PEP new in April of '97, one of the last two '95s imported, apparently), improper maintenance, or improper tuning. Not sure what caused the second... :)

The car had the pre-cat, along with everything else removed a few months after purchase when I went full non-sequential (without ever having had a problem with the sequential system) and full mods.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?...638&p=48291412

At that time, the availability of computer mods were limited, and after trying a PFS "Gold" computer, I went with one of the first Mostly Mazda (now M2 Performance) reprogrammed ECUs, after talking with Brian Richards about my setup.

My first engine failure wasn't due to my tuning maps, but due to a configuration blunder and the stock clutch. The Crane HI-6 had not been set with a rev limiter, since we assumed that the rev limiter in the stock ECU was intact. In fact, it had been removed, and one nice day when the stock clutch decided to let go at 90 mph, I found that indeed, a rotary motor will turn to far, far over 10k rpm. I think I waited several seconds (seemed that long, anyway) for the needle to drop back below 9k rpm.

Needless to say, after finding out that the car ran fine, idled fine, and didn't seem to have been harmed by the experience, I had a Racing Beat flywheel and clutch installed. No one had pointed out that I should replace the clutch after adding all the mods I had, and being new to heavily modified car ownership at the time, I didn't think to ask. It wasn't a matter of having the money to do it, it was simply that no one advised me to, and I didn't know that it was necessary.

The car ran fine for another couple months and then while cruising in traffic at 70 mph, just completely died. All warning lights came on, the engine died, and I had trouble restarting it. While I was still rolling at 60 mph, I got it restarted and it felt all right, except that when we reached stop-and-go traffic, the car idled badly and shuddered horribly. I immediately got it to Trev's house and in trying to find out what was wrong (after checking the MAP sensor and replacing the 02 sensor) he blew it up completely while test driving it. We limped it back to his house and that was that.

I immediately started on having Hayes Rotary build me a 3mm ceramic apex seal motor, because that was supposed to be the solve-all solution... ceramic apex seals. Knowing what I know now, I would advise anyone thinking that there is a magical seal that will save an engine to give it up and just spend all their money on proper fuel management and stick with the stock seals. But at the time, I had been convinced by Francesco Ianetti (who of course wanted to sell his seals) and by Trev (who was enamored with anything really rare and horribly expensive, especially when he wasn't paying for it) and went that route.

While I was having my motor built by Hayes, we pulled the one in my car and found one damaged rotor (rear), one damaged housing, and the rear turbo had taken a beating, pretty standard for the course. The engine had about 5,000 miles on it, and I had bought another core at the time, thinking we'd just rebuild mine with a good rotor and housing, but ended up trading them both in for core charge ($250 each) on the motor at Hayes.

In the meantime, we put a junkyard salvage motor in the car, and I ran it that way for the rest of the time it moved under its own power. That motor leaked oil from the beginning, and after a wild adventure caused by a junkyard oil cooler hose that had been damaged (and not replaced with my low mileage hoses as I'd asked Trev to do), we skated our way to a gas station on a 5 qt. oil slick and almost stuffed the car. So my 6,000 mile car was coated in oil at this time (hood liner, all the underhood area, entire underbody of the car). Niiice. :)

So we tried reconnecting the oil system (as all good adventures, this one took place at about 1:30am) while I ran over to Safeway and bought what motor oil they had in stock. We dumped it in, started it up, and blew another 5 quarts of oil all over the place. So at that point, we walked the 7 kilometers (measured with the odometer in my Canadian Grand Am rental car that I had at the time on the trip back) to Trev's dad's house, got my new oil hose and drove back with even more oil, and then fixed the car and drove it back to his dad's house and parked it. At about 4:30am. :)

So after doing my best to degrease the car and scrapping the hood liner as a complete loss, I drove the car with the junkyard motor for awhile and it let go not long afterward, maybe a month. My engine from Hayes wasn't ready yet, and so I just hammered the motor in the car. 2 or 3 months later, I took it to the RROW dyno day event and put down 238 RWHP with a stock intercooler, stock cat-back, and 10 psi with a motor that had bad compression on 2 faces of EACH rotor. Not bad. That motor actually ran reasonably well for another 5 months until I pulled the last running motor from the car in May of '98. I haven't driven the car since.

The Hayes motor took months to finish, and I had to dog them most of the way. Then we found out after another motor they'd built at the same time seized up and died that they'd substituted a lot of shoddy parts, wrong year parts, done a horrible and incomplete job of porting, and hadn't machined the rotors for my 3mm seals at all, but substituted 3mm rotors, which was the cause of death with the first motor. The seals bound up, cracked, and it lost two out of the rear rotor.

At that point, I'd already decided that I was going with a 20B, and I'd actually sold the motor mentioned above to Trev's dad. On finding out that there was probably something extremely wrong with "our" motor (it still hadn't been run or installed in his dad's car), Trev disassembled it and found all the problems I listed above, coupled with the fact that the intermediate plates had been lapped so many times that there wasn't sufficient groove left for the water jacket O-rings. They'd split immediately when the motor was torqued down and had spooled out of the "grooves". It would have overheated or at least consumed coolant at an alarming rate immediately on running. Here's a picture... looked good on the outside, at least...

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?...638&p=48291469

So Hayes promised to rebuild the motor if Trev would keep quiet about it (he didn't obviously, but we did until after they'd already rebuilt it) but would not allow him to be present when it was assembled. I assume it was assembled correctly though, since it got them to California for a road course event at Buttonwillow and back, and I drove the car while the motor was in it afterwards at 160+ mph. After the wreck of that car, in which Trev died, the motor (which was unharmed by the wreck) was sold to a buyer who agreed to take Trev's R1 off his family's hands.

So at that point I had a 20B (shown below) and still planned on putting a rotary in my car. It wasn't until I had unpleasant experiences with vendors in regards to that project and could not resolve the problem of relocating the steering rack easily that I chose to sell the 20B and think about it some more.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?...638&p=48291468

And so eventually I just got tired of looking at the car, and decided to do something a little unorthodox after reading an article in Vette magazine on a 409 cid LT1 (late model) built by TPIS which made some very, very impressive numbers. The end result, after doing a lot of research, was that I partnered with Granny's to develop a V8 conversion kit for my car which they would then market, and which started all this controversy over V8 swaps into 3rd gen. cars.

Can you tune a rotary engine properly? Most certainly. Can the turbo engines last a long time? With careful maintenance and some luck, and with reasonable use and a cautious eye on temperatures and pressures, sure. But there are a lot of engine deaths that I've read about or heard about over the years that aren't attributable to maintenance or tuning. Sometimes they just let go. A Mandeville-tuned full Motec (including the Motec dash) car at 10 psi died, even with the ceramic apex seals. Most of the people I know who have made over 350 RWHP have had an engine (or two) die on them. Their components and programming range from PFS boxes to Pettit ECUs to Mostly Mazda ECUs to even a Wolf 3D. There's no single "right" answer to why the engines die, they're just delicate (in my opinion, when compared to a piston engine) and have to be treated as such.

I went my own way just to do something a little different, and not because I hate the rotary or can't tune (or afford to have one tuned) properly. I did it because for the power I wanted to make and the use of my car (mostly street, with a bit of drag racing) it made sense to me. Obviously it doesn't make sense for everyone, and especially considering my car's history, the expenditure on different mods and engines, and the latest expenses related to my V8 swap, my car can't even remotely be called typical or average, so it can't be used as a case study into "why rotary engines blow up" (in the United States and not eslewhere) or a case study for much of anything else, including "what's the average cost of a V8 swap?". :)

I don't have the answers. I just know that the number of engine deaths (and the wide variety of conditions, configurations from stock to wild, and climates) indicates that the rotary engine isn't as robust as some people would like to believe, although the fact that they do produce extremely impressive power and can be tuned properly and can live long lives can't be denied. However, it's become common enough to see people with problems that are engine related that the car has received an extremely bad reputation. Perhaps the high initial sale price is to blame. People especially don't want to believe that they bought a "lemon", or that they paid so much money for something that is (in some instances) unreliable. They want to drive their cars. Those initial people, who probably didn't have much understanding of their car's inner workings (coupled with dealerships that didn't know how to work on them properly, and never did learn, in most cases) are probably to blame for the initial bad image the 3rd gen. got in the United States, and for the (initial) number of 2nd engine used FDs on the market. Not to mention the failing sales long before the high dollar Japanese sports cars were discontinued in other model lines.

Just a few thoughts... think I'll take a break. :)

I'm going to have to agree with this one. In all of my personal experience with RX-7's and rotary's (over 200,000 miles) in general, I have never once had a problem (other than my FC flooding once on a Christmas night at 15 degrees, since then it's never happened again) with a rotary engine. I'm not talking just stock either. My R1 is highly modified and hits 8,000 rpm and speeds of 160+ mph when ever weather permits. My FC is mildly modified and hits redline everyday. There's nothing I like better than hearing the REV Buzzer go off. I have no idea why people go through so many engine problems and engines. I tend do just to normal maintenance on both of my current 7's and have never had any engine related problems. Mind you, that doesn't mean I don't have any problems. My FC has the famous electrical gremlins and a few other problems. I change my oil at 3,000 and 2,000 miles respectfully. I change my fuel filters and coolant every two years. I have most of the reliability mods on my FD which help, but I still can't imagine everyone just go through engines. In fact I wish that my engines would go. Then I could go single turbo with street ports for the both of my engines. No matter how hard I beat on them, they keep coming back for more. These engines can take it. If you make careless mistakes or get a shity rebuilt motor then you can't blame the engine. I had a first gen Talon and I won't even go in to detail what a nightmare that car was.

1km is 1.6 miles from memory.

Most people I know change oil every 5000km's. I didnt use premix myself but i know some people who are.

We did get the pre-cat, however i believe that in the 1996 update this was removed but am not positive.

Jim,

We don't deserve such an excellent explanation. Obviously your decision to swap a V8 was well thought out, with pure performance motives everyone here can relate to. Without putting my head too far up your ass, let me thank you for your time and creativity. I have an automatic FD and was thinking of swapping in a 5-speed, but now I have a lot more options to consider. Thanks again.

Hmmm (strokes chin hair), I wonder if the ZO6 Corvette engine/tranny will fit in there....

Will the Z06 drivetrain fit? Nope, and for several reasons. :)

1) The LS6 is the same size, dimensionally, as the LS1, which means that it's about 1.5 inches wider than the LT1, and another inch taller. The throttle body of the LT1 comes within hairs of the hood (except on my car, and you don't want to know how I'm getting around that without modifying my hood) and the LS1 will definitely not fit without hood modification, or modification to the cradle to drop the engine lower in the car, which would A) decrease ground clearance, B) screw up drivetrain geometry, and C) cause you to have to move the steering rack, negating one of the things we strived to keep stock.

2) The C5 (and Z06) are transaxle cars, of course. You would not be able to use the torque tube and bellhousing from a Corvette in the RX-7 without huge modification of the rear of the car. Yes, you could use a late model Camaro hydraulic T-56 6-speed, but they are quite a bit more expensive than the pull-type LT1 T56.

3) The LS6, as nasty as it is (405 horsepower, 400 ft. lbs. of torque in the '02 Z06) is only nasty in a car with a warranty on it. Half the lure of having the LS6 was that it was such a bad-ass motor in a car that came from the factory that way. You can build an LS1 or LT1 to make that much power with a cam and head swap, and in fact, 450 horsepower from an LT1 is so simple and cheap to make, you'd be nuts trying to buy an LS6 (since they're rare as rare right now) and trying to fit it into the car. :)

Ohhh, I see now. Also answers my question as to why you did not use the LS1. After digging around abit, I know now that the LS6 is a modded LS1, correct?

I DO want to now how you got more hood clearance - this way I don't have to think about selling my CF hood, hehe.

Just thought I'd add the current status of my upcoming LT1 powered FD is (hell I may even get it done before Jim does). Currently the engine is at Lingenfelter having their 383 LT1 job done to it...should be good for 440rwhp/430ftlbs (it even comes with a 2 year warranty). I'll be mating this with the borg warner t56 6 speed transmission once it's finished. Incidentally, the engine is 50 state legal - the law regarding engine swaps states that as long as the emissions parts required for the donor vehicle are present (main cat only for a '96 Z28), then you're fine.

Big thanks to both Jim and especially Bill Hagan for their assistance thus far.

And as Jim mentioned somewhere earlier, performance is my goal. If it involves me putting a Chevy engine inplace of the 'unique' rotary then so be it. I've been about as much of a rotary enthusiast as I could have been over the years, but the constant maintenance and reliability issues (3 motors in 4 years says it all) has pushed me over the edge. And before anyone starts screaming about tuning, yes everything was tuned correctly, all reliability issues taken care of, blah blah. And as for gas mileage...I'd be better off having a gas tanker follow me around Hollywood seeing as I end up at a gas station every 100 miles or so off a 15 gallon tank...awesome.

And PLEASE PLEASE these fools who spout nonsense regarding weight balance and how the car will never handle as well ever again, just be quiet. Please? Myself and Jim several times have mentioned the fact that a) the car weighs roughly that of stock (Jims even weighs less than a stock FD), b) the weight balance is *shock horror* still 50/50!

This is a very informative thread, whether you like V8's in FD's or not. I know I have learned alot. I am not considering doing much to my car. I have had it for 4 years almost and haven't had an engine blow up. Of course mine is pretty much stock. This thread should definitely be archived for reference.



Petros

At the rate my engine is coming together, it might be done in December, so chances are good that even someone starting right now will beat me to having a running car. :)

I almost fell off the NA truck today, but the 90 lb. weight gain and umpteen customizations required to mount the supercharger I was considering changed my mind. Guess I'll have to settle for around 700 horsepower. :)

For anyone interested, here's the 421 cid supercharged LT1 under construction by the owner of the shop building my engine... it'll be pushing nearly 4-figure horsepower. :)

http://www.c-zone.net/markm/blown421/

What is the total cost of the engine you are building? If it works out to less than $15k I'm gonna be pissed...

It probably could have been done for $15k, if I'd made some different decisions. However, I spent a lot of money on parts to ensure durability, high rpm stability (and capability), and to reduce rotating assembly weight wherever possible. Not only will it spin to 8k (easily), but it'll get there very quickly, and it weighs substantially less than a stock LT1 now.