Joining the 500 RWHP club
 

I replaced my exhaust and had Ball Joint (Joe Waters) come out from Cleveland to help me retune the FD. We essentially added 4 lbs of boost with an Apexi GT Exhaust and grew power numbers by 80HP at the wheels with more room to go. Ignition breakup was just starting to occur on the dyno, but we grabbed two BACK TO BACK 505 RWHP dyno pulls.

Joe is top notch and knows what he is doing (as evident by the numbers he is pulling on the BNRs).

The Numbers are Excellent. See for yourself.

505 rwhp with 375 rwtq all @ just under 22PSI.

This is an Aspec 500r that spools insanely quick as you can see. I will scan in the dyno sheet later this week for a clearer view.

Congrats, I'm assuming you are using a twin power for ignition?

indeed a twin power and stock coils and ngk platinum race plugs

Thank you very much for the compliments, it was a pleasure working with you and and I'm glad I was able to get you the numbers your last tuner couldn't.

Just to clarify, I had to rebuild and scale Don's base map from scratch as the last tuner did not rescale his map for anything over 17psi. Consequently I had Don running 100 octane unleaded as a safety measure to protect his investment while I rebuilt his map. The 100 octane in combination with the 600cc's of water being injected caused breakup at high RPM.

We later put in 12 gallons of 93 octane and this cured the ignition breakup issue; as the lower octane was easier to ignite.

Once again, congratulations Don, I hope you enjoy the car and I'm happy I could get you want you wanted.

Joe, this car is Unreal. Not only is it stupid fast, sound amazing with a solid and safe tune, but my girl just rode with me and she was blown away at how smooth and drivable the half bridge is.

Oh and I turned on the ac.... nice having all the creature comforts of the PEP package rx7 with ice cold ac and 500rwhp. Power steering, cruise, abs and ac all still intact.

Wasn't the tuner, it was the exhaust :P

aaaaaaand there it is don you admitted shes your girl! lol

I'll admit, there was no way Don could have gotten 500whp without a new exhaust, but there still was much more left on the table. Gotta give you props on fabbing that exhaust, looked and sounded awesome! Amazing welds as well.

Steve Kan never re-scaled the map before attempting the tune, all he did was load in a base map that had a Map Reference PIM 20 value of 25,000. This value is good for around 17psi, which is conveniently where he stopped tuning the car. The 500R turbo doesn't start making power till 19psi, and if you're building a map for someone looking for 500whp the first thing you're going to do is rescale the map to recognize boost pressures above 20. If it chokes from the lack of exhaust flow you'll stop tuning where it chokes, but to not have even re-scaled the map prior to tuning doesn't make any sense.

He also had the car tuned with 14 degrees of split with conservative advance timing ranging from 9-13 through the rev range at that pressure, with 12 degrees being at peak power. On the base tune from Steve I read 10-10.5 afr's across the board. This conservative timing combined with the rich AFR's lead to dangerously high EGT's that over time would have damaged the motor. The tune worked, but I can't imagine for how long.

Then there's also the drivability tuning that I was told Steve blamed on the car having a half-bridge port. During drivability tuning I found many inconsistent spots that were either too lean or too rich causing hiccups similar to when a car has a failing TPS. He also didn't adjust Inj vs Accel TPS to solve his problems during throttle tip-in which added to the hiccups.

Overall I found Steve's tune to be one that was conservative to the point where the motor would probably fail due to high EGT's and lacked any refinement in drivability tuning.

Take my comments with whatever feelings you want and I know saying anything bad about Steve is like insulting god on this forum. All I'm stating is the facts that I found when analyzing Steve's map when confronted with the goal of reaching 500whp+ on Don's car.

Here are a few things to clarify.

1.) 25000 = 1.5 kg/cm2 = 22.5psi. I was never intended to run more than 22psi on his car since it was pump gas with water injection so there were no reason to loose map resolution over something never exceeded. Map sensor will read over it and will run the last row as reference If over 22.5psi

2.) Timing has very little on egt unless you run stupid retarded like 0-5 degrees leading. I have done enough testing to show that egt doesnt change over timing unless you run 23-25 degrees in advanced. Leaner a/f is what creates high egt.

3.) You can run anything rich enough on cruising to damper any hesitation for half bridge or full bridge. 12.5-13.2 will definately get rid of it but you are also lossing 14 % in fuel economy. Try to set it to 13.5 or higher and see if the hesitation go away.

glad you were able to get more hp for him. It doesnt make sense for me to tune for higher boost since it wasnt gaining in hp with the setup he had Which is why I told him his exhaust was the restriction.

Not sure where you see 10.5 a/f unless the new exhaust flow differently than the old.

Same turbo?

Aye same turbo. It still smokes. Joe and Bill can attest to that.

1. I agree and you are correct to a point. With your calibration for the 3-bar, max map resolution during the tune required 27,000 map resolution (not 25,000) to accurately read 21.95psi. Every scale for the 3-bar is different and I know different tuners have their preferences. But at your scale of 6,600 KG/M2/v with offset of 357 KG/M2 I had to adjust for map resolutions not just at 27,000, but at 29,000 as well in order to accurately tune the fuel/ignition tables.

2. Timing has a lot to do with EGT. If you're running 14 degrees of split with a low advance combined with a high AFR you are dumping a high amount of unburned mixture into the exhaust which results in high EGT. I hod Don testify to high EGT numbers prior to my involvement. EGT can be raised by a number of factors but this condition always leads to high EGT. It's basic tuning, if you burn a rich and somewhat unburnt mixture; you're going to have higher EGT.

3. Fuel economy aside, which usually isn't a factor in a half bridge build (customer usually doesn't care), it's no excuse to have a map that transitions from 10.7:1 afr - 17:6 afr between two cells during the cruising map. I don't see how you could have left him with that under the excuse that it was simply a "half bridge problem". I ended up setting him to as lean a afr that wouldn't cause hesitation/bucking and give reasonable fuel economy. I also don't understand why you couldn't have made the simple change of adjusting INJ vs Accel TPS to fix tip in.

4. The 10.5-10:1 AFR reading was attested to by the customer before I agreed to tune the car.

5. You've tuned plenty of cars and as I'm sure you know different turbos have their sweet spots, in this case 19psi for a 500R. Sometimes you have to push through that barrier to start making power. Pardon me, but it seems like you did a lazy job on this mans car and he had to have me fly out to correct what you couldn't do. I think you owe this man an apology for the time and money spent on his tune and his time.

500R = T61 = GT35R = 61mm compressor wheel. Eventhough the compressor and turbine wheel were designed different, they flow approximately the same (They maxed out at around 500-520rwhp. How is their sweet spot be at 19psi when they maxed out at around 20-22psi in a rotary? Judging from the dyno chart, you are probably running around 14-20 degrees of timing with 10 degrees of split to maintain the torque at high rpm. if that works for you good, I personally wouldn't do it to any of my customers unless they understands the risks involved.

Just stopping in to point out that the 500R is simply a 35R turbo with a larger 67mm inducer/84mm exducer compressor wheel :)

Yes, that is the sensor installed. Boost was verified via the Dynojet computer, which was supplied boost from a T connection coming off the FPR. If you look at the dyno sheet you can see the boost reading. I'm using your calibration point because that was what the car was originally setup on and it's far quicker to re-scale the map given that calibration without having to re-scale the map and then re-scale it based off your wrong calibration. Don't put the blame on me because your calibration was off, it worked, but required me to re-scale the map for higher boost.

I understand how EGT works, a leaner condition will raise EGT, but a overly rich condition combined with low timing will also cause high EGT as the excess fuel is burned during exhaust phase and not during combustion. I agree, it's not timing that makes the peak power, but there's a difference between safe timing and too conservative of timing. EGT before was 1,700 and climbing, EGT after was close to 1600. The before EGT was measured before Don changed the exhaust.

If you don't think adjusting inj vs. accel tps to help solve tip-in issues is a bad idea then ask Chuck. Many tuners including myself have used this method to successfully solve issues with tip-in. Also, I've never seen the " letting off the gas pedal as fast as you can. does it goto 10's?" happen on any car I've made the adjustment on.

Before I tuned the car and before it got a new exhaust I had Don perform a WOT test on the car to measure the current AFR. This was the range he told me and nothing had been changed on the car since you tuned it.

As Good Fella said "Just stopping in to point out that the 500R is simply a 35R turbo with a larger 67mm inducer/84mm exducer compressor wheel". So it kind of isn't.

I'm running 14 degrees of advance timing and 12 split. Like I said earlier, there's a difference between conservative timing and overly conservative timing. I know how to make safe power on rotary's and the results speak for themselves. There's also 600cc's of only water being injected into the motor to increase the safety net.

This is your problem, you keep making excuses for yourself to justify delivering a tune that even when the customer brought up issue's after tuning you simply brushed it off as being a "half-bridge problem". This isn't a argument of feelings or emotions, but one of facts; and the fact is that you failed to deliver for the customer even when he had the trust to come back to you after you blew his prior motor confusing for one running e85.

No wonder he reached out to me for help with his car, he put his trust in you twice and you failed him.

Fresh o2 sensor change, not that it matters a WHOLE bunch.. but its going to read better than the 3 year old one that was on the car. Don is also running 70% water/30% meth.

As far as to blowing up his motor prior? It didnt blow on the dyno. It blew on one of the hottest days we have had in years here (close to 110?) when he had the a/c running and beating on it. Also was nowhere NEAR this setup.

Thanks for the clarification, it was to my understanding that during the tuning process Kan was confused that he was tuning a e85 car when in reality it was a gas car. It was to my understanding that this then caused problems. Thanks for clearing that up.

he was only at 18psi when i mentioned it was regular fuel and not e85. knock wasnt high enough to be a problem yet (still under 50 i believe)

Two things. 1 I am running 100% water distilled. 2. The motor wad on the way out before that hot day. When driving the car and you clutch in and it kills itself... and it has hot start issues they all point to low compression. Regardless I knew I was pushing the car to the edge of the stock motor prior to blowing it. Frankly I wanted a new keg to get better power. This thread was only meant to showcase the 500rwhp that ball joint helped me obtain.

This is not meant to be a comparison of tuners. I have read alot on this topic myself but frankly am just a bit squeamish on doing it my self. The time Joe spent with me explaining his theory, And watching him implement it was a great learning experience as well.

I will say having the personal road tuning time and fine tuning with ball joint helped to dial in this car.

Net result, I am at 505 rwhp and this car is a blast to drive while keeping AC ps abs and cruise.

One other point... the clutch in stall in the car occurred last year after the last tune. Then I quickly started to get hot start issues. The e85 confusion did indeed happen but whatever... I am not into placing blame... These are cars and rotaries can be finicky.

Boosted414, you know I love you like a brother, but it was ignition breakup and not detonation.

Yeah, we had ignition breakup at 7,500rpm, I know the difference between detonation and ignition breakup. I'm pretty sure I know who told you that and he is not a tuner, which is why he went to you to tune his car. If you don't tune regularly you might get the two confused. Your source even got the apex seals wrong, they're RA super seals.

100 octane and 600cc's of water will do that at that power level considering the 11.5 NGK race plugs he's running foul quickly when running under rich conditions for a extended period of time. Such as, most of the cruising map and idle map you gave him were very rich and I'm sure put those plugs in a less then perfect state.

Also, if it were detonation then switching the car to 93 octane would have made the problem worse instead of fixing it, which it did. The numbers and Don's testament to how the car drives speaks for themselves.

Your detonation argument is wrong, have your buddy that's feeding you this crap info compression check his engine if you don't believe me. You're grasping at straws at this point.

I reached out to him to ask if I could see the map and he sent it to me knowing that I have made power on rotaries and would maybe find the spots where things could be changed. He had invested a lot of money in his dream car and was not satisfied with the power numbers it put down. I highlighted the areas that needed to be changed and also added my phone number if he wanted more clarification. After further discussion and me proving myself he offered to fly me out to tune the car. That was that.

Also, your maths wrong. He did 422whp at 16psi, I got 505whp at 21.95psi. That's 6 more psi and 14 per psi, but considering that the turbo doesn't really start making power till 19psi it's a dumb argument. For example at 21psi we made 473whp and 505whp at 22psi. So I could make the argument that I made 32whp on one psi. Power per PSI is different for every turbo and every port, your argument is wrong.

Try again.

Try again.[/QUOTE]

Wow Steve, it's nice to see how quickly you've become immature in this argument and have started playing the age card and am assuming I'm just some young kid. For your information I've been working on cars since I was 14 and bought my 3rd gen when I was 18, I'm now 28 if that matters to you. But as you just proved by inadvertently using yourself as a example, wisdom and proper decision making do not necessarily come with age.

I knew he was running newer NGK race plugs at 11.5 heat range with a rich tune for many miles. I knew what I as getting into as I've tuned many cars with these plugs and know how they react to rich tunes as well as how they are effected by mileage. Also, the irony of you making the argument "eliminating any potential variable" before tuning is very hypocritical of you. Don just testified that at one time you attempted to tune his car thinking it was E85. I think that knowing what gas you're tuning on is a pretty big variable. So... by your same standards your also a "noob".

So in this argument you're calling me and Don liars, in that by switching to 93 octane it didn't solve the problem. Well you can ask Don yourself, we never changed anything but the gas and the breakup problem was cured. So now your resorting to a argument that I must not be telling the truth. Don's testament and the results don't lie. Do you seriously think Don would sit back and let me say all this if it weren't true?

The same dyno was measuring boost on both pulls, yours and mine. Your run was at 16psi measured by that dyno, mine was 21.95 measured by that same dyno. You can go off PIM values, but I don't know what PIM values you were at when you tuned due to how you calibrated the 3-bar. What I do trust is that dyno that we both tuned, which measured 16psi for you and 21.95psi for me. Call the dyno and ask for the graphs if you don't believe me, Don and his partner that's feeding you info should have enough sway to get them.

try again

Quote:
Originally Posted by pluto
How old are you? 24? so I was driving my 3rd gen rx7 while you are still drinking milk? I have been tuning my own vehicle since 95 and I didn't dare to touch anyone's car until 6 yrs later because I didn't want the responsibility of it but enough have asked and I eventually give in.
Wow Steve, it's nice to see how quickly you've become immature in this argument and have started playing the age card and am assuming I'm just some young kid. For your information I've been working on cars since I was 14 and bought my 3rd gen when I was 18, I'm now 28 if that matters to you. But as you just proved by inadvertently using yourself as a example, wisdom and proper decision making do not necessarily come with age




Since you can't seem to be able to talk in my level, I will step down a couple of notch to yours. Besides, you are the one that called me out by posting and linking everyone to this thread. Did you not remembered you linked me on FB? You want my replied, you got it. So before you call someone out, make sure you have enough ammo. Obviously you are still dodging my questions by not answering the more technical questions that I asked.

We are still talking about tuning are we? so where does working on cars have anything to do with tuning them? They do teach mechanics in high school so your point of working on cars were irrelevant to tuning them.




Quote:
Originally Posted by pluto
Don't you read spark plugs before tuning? That's part of the tuning process. eliminating any potential variable. that comes to show you are still a noob.
I knew he was running newer NGK race plugs at 11.5 heat range with a rich tune for many miles. I knew what I as getting into as I've tuned many cars with these plugs and know how they react to rich tunes as well as how they are effected by mileage. Also, the irony of you making the argument "eliminating any potential variable" before tuning is very hypocritical of you. Don just testified that at one time you attempted to tune his car thinking it was E85. I think that knowing what gas you're tuning on is a pretty big variable. So... by your same standards your also a "noob".


Actually, I did asked. I believed I asked bill prior to tune 3 cars from their area what fuel they were running. the answer I got was E85. Even after I realized he was running on pump, I asked Bill I thought you said they were all on E85 and that's when they corrected me.
as for spark plugs fouled, if they were, it would have been noticable at much lower boost. reason why it "breakup" like you said was either
1.), too aggressive in timing for the boost level
2.) too rich......

Don't blame on the spark plugs or the HKS twin power. I has been proven to support over 27psi of boost and over 600rwhp.




Quote:
Originally Posted by pluto *
many things could have happened before changing the fuel. You could easily adjusted the timing map, adding more fuel, ran lower boost, etc...
So in this argument you're calling me and Don liars, in that by switching to 93 octane it didn't solve the problem. Well you can ask Don yourself, we never changed anything but the gas and the breakup problem was cured. So now your resorting to a argument that I must not be telling the truth. Don's testament and the results don't lie. Do you seriously think Don would sit back and let me say all this if it weren't true?



Calling you a liar? NO. Challenging your theory, YES. I didn't call Don a liar so you can stop twisting words in my mouth. Were you the one that said Bill doesn't know the difference between detonation and breakup? Why bring Don up or are you implying that Don knows the difference between detonation and breakup? You still have no idea why breakup went away switching from race gas to pump gas. So your theory is that because the fuel burns slower, it breaks up. How convenient.






The same dyno was measuring boost on both pulls, yours and mine. Your run was at 16psi measured by that dyno, mine was 21.95 measured by that same dyno. You can go off PIM values, but I don't know what PIM values you were at when you tuned due to how you calibrated the 3-bar. What I do trust is that dyno that we both tuned, which measured 16psi for you and 21.95psi for me. Call the dyno and ask for the graphs if you don't believe me, Don and his partner that's feeding you info should have enough sway to get them.

try again

Quote:
Originally Posted by pluto *
VE is VE, it doesn't change better as boost goes higher. If anything, it gets worst since airflow, restriction and EMP come into play.*
again, I asked you what the PIM was reading at 21.95psi. You said 1.7 to properly rescale it for the boost level he needs based on the "calibration error" on the map sensor. IF so, that's 8psi difference since the car was tuned to 1.1 on the PFC.*




2-5% better in efficiency on the turbo doesn't translate to 30% in power efficiency gain or in your case, 250% based on your 32whp/lb claimed.
The same dyno was measuring boost on both pulls, yours and mine. Your run was at 16psi measured by that dyno, mine was 21.95 measured by that same dyno. You can go off PIM values, but I don't know what PIM values you were at when you tuned due to how you calibrated the 3-bar. What I do trust is that dyno that we both tuned, which measured 16psi for you and 21.95psi for me. Call the dyno and ask for the graphs if you don't believe me, Don and his partner that's feeding you info should have enough sway to get them.




try again



Again, You are the one that said you have to set the map references to 27000 in order to tune this properly because 25000 is conveniently where 16-17psi falls. Do I need to re-quote on what you wrote? Are you saying that it wasn't 1.7kg/cm2 that was tuned at? Did you even setup the logs correctly to monitor all the parameters? I already told you it was 1.1 based on my logs. You said 1.7. that's 8psi difference.


again, I'm still waiting for your correct map calibration profile. I'm also waiting for you to explain how your 1 degrees of timing difference makes 100F lower in EGT. What's the number in degrees on the power stroke in a rotary engine..... How my map has a 32% in fuel fluctuation in the cruise map. Very simple questions and should have been answered a long time ago....



[/QUOTE]

Look Steve, I called you out because I think the community needs to see what you actually stand for and how you treat your customers during the tuning process. I have made myself clear about what I found during my tuning of Don's car and what I did to correct it. Tuning you did not provide.

As for these technical details you keep going on about, these are things that can be found doing a Google search. So what is the point in having me repeat them.

I think you're a tuner that doesn't take the time to properly tune someone's car and cares more about getting it done then making the customer happy. Don isn't the only one of your customers to get lower power numbers, a simple search on this forum will consistently bring up your underwhelming results.

Given this long conversation I think the community now has enough information to make a judgement on you before they decide to have you tune their car.

That's why I contacted you, as I wanted to make sure you stated your side after I stated what I found.

Good luck with your future tuning.

Likewise, as the community will find out your lack of knowledge in the matter. (doesn't know how to setup a wideband into datalogit, doesn't know how to setup the dyno to read rpm, doesn't understand EGT, doesn't know how to setup map sensor calibrations, reuse other tuner's map and call it your own. Best of all, doesn't know the actual boost reading you are tuning for. I guess you didn't know the dyno also use a GM 3bar map sensor separate from the standard Dynojet map sensor. Did you verify the calibration? Did you read the boost gauge that was in the car?)

There's really no point for me to continue with this conversation since you can't provide any answers other than pointing fingers on "look what I find"


Good luck with your external wastegate advanture. Good thing you are running water injection or else that engine would have been blown long time ago with your knowledge.

Dyno-Jets are way to generous....over

:popcorn:

Went through this briefly. With claims of a 30+ hp/psi gain at over 20 psi on this setup, not considering that most of that was probably due to measurement error in the boost reading and from variations in other variables from one run to another, supposed drastic changes in EGTs due to one degree of leading timing change, and assumptions that a professional tuner would intentionally tune to 10-10.5 AFRs and not just immediately attribute such readings as having resulted from other causes like a different WB sensor being used since the original tune, it is very hard to put any weight into what Ball Joint is saying. On the contrary, it comes across as a pretty unfounded attack. I'd also be interested to see the 25%+ variation in the map in adjacent cells that correspond to a cruise condition.

Go ahead Steve, justify your unfounded claims, I knew how to calibrate the map sensor and Bill (boosted414) is knowingly lying to you to make you seem better then you are. He was there the entire time, how about we have Bill come on and testify and have Don backup that claim who is now the owner of a 505whp RX-7 to back it up. I think that would be interesting. How about you ask Bill how the Innovate software was supposed to be calibrated to my instructions prior to my arrival and due to Don's time constraints (to no fault of his own) wasn't done. How about we have Bill come on and tell the truth that they weren't able to get the serial adaptor to communicate with the Innovate setup program and it was ultimately Don that was able to get the serial adaptor connection to work. You're "little bird" is shitting on the hood of your claims, and to be honest should be making over 520whp given his setup. (by the way Bill, I'd gladly get you that power, even with everything aside).

I love how you keep going into details on calibrations when you couldn't even give Don a basic drivability map and made excuses instead of producing results. All it took was a simple AFR tune to get him to a stable 13:5-13:8 AFR drivability tune to cure the drivability problems, took me all of 40 minutes. Like I said prior, your drivability tune had him ranging from 10:5-1AFR-17:5-1 between just two cells on the map. This is in my mind is pure laziness on your part, and it's a fact that Don can backup.

Ahhh... That's cute, talk shit about my own car to make yourself look better. See any breakup/detonation in any of those dyno pull videos I'm posting on this site? Last one was on a Mustang dyno in fourth gear with 70F ambient temps, I'm making nearly as much peak power as your "little bird" Bill on stock frame turbos. Want to talk shit about my tunes? Last number I saw you make on BNR's didn't even come close.

Here's the thread where you tuned GoodfellaFD3S's car on Non-sequential BNR stage 3's.

BNR stage 3 low boost 366hp 13.5psi, 421rwhp (race gas!?) 17.5psi
https://www.rx7club.com/time-slips-d...esults-442095/

I love this one in particular, cause you complained earlier about me tuning on 100 octane for safety measures, yet you through in C16! to tune on 17.5psi. I guess race gas is a nice thing to have when you're building a new map as a safety measure. Sounds familier.

As for working off your map, sure, of course I did, I didn't have a map for a 500R which I know responds differently to a 35R. I heavily adjusted yours to make Don's map, but to give me shit about that would be the equivalent of giving a bread maker shit for not coming up with his own recipe for sourdough. Point is that if you have a base map to work off of; you load it in and work from there. If you don't, then you spend the time and effort to adapt what you have to make work for future builds. Every tuner does this, are you arguing that you create a completely brand new map for every single car you tune? I highly doubt your business model would work out otherwise.

Gotta say one thing Steve, I can tell your pissed off, and I'm happy for it. Makes you actually come out into the wild instead of hiding behind the magic curtain of "conservative numbers" and makes you deal with the fact that you're delivering low power numbers while wearing the kings hat of "God of tuning" on this forum.

Once again, good luck in your futre of "conservative" low power tunes.

You wanted to set the calibration for AN1-AN2 to 9.0-16 afr. we hooked it up to MY car for the proper settings as mine is set up already. don googled the problem and pointed us in the right direction. I calibrated the o2 sensor (brand new out of the box), as far as setting up the outputs.. not me, im not tuning the car. the laptop was however in MY hand and on MY com port settings when I told you to turn the car off, turn it on and unplug/replug in the DIN connector. I remember don saying "but it says no! don't plug it in with the car on!".. yea.

my setup is perfectly capable of making 520 at the wheels. the day my car was on the dyno I still had the AVC-R in learn mode, if you go back and look at my map (its on here and scanned well so theres no argument to it) my power falls off as my boost dives to 19 psi. im at 22-23 so no problems there, ill gladly put it back on the dyno with a new # for you. problem is the higher up I go, ill have to switch to the CJ dual pump hanger as the aeromotive stealth 340 is only good to 533ish hp. I beat the ever living shit out of my car and don't like it running on the edge.

lets look at dons torque vs mine... similar setup yet less torque with more hp? his turbo should hit peak earlier than mine as well. hes even on 9:1 compression rotors where as im on 8.5:1. my entire map builds power faster than his does or were you not looking at the monitor when we had a side by side up on the screen?

as far as me being a tuner you mentioned in a previous post. can I tune? yea, im more than capable. but why would I want to be liable for an engine (1200+ dollars minimum) when I can pay someone else 3-500 to do it?

theres no bad blood between me and don on the #s. I simply don't like your attitude or the way you went about this whole thing. I don't have to like you, and you don't have to like me.. but bashing ME in all of this when ive recalled everything to the best of my recollection is uncalled for and wont be tolerated. did you see me make a post saying you were a twat? no, it was simply my opinion that i expressed to people that i know. was I wrong about the seals in his motor? it would seem so.

How about you post your map and steve can post his and let the facts stand for themselves? Its either that or we can all go back and forth stomping mud holes in each others asses or beating a dead horse if you would prefer.

It's all good Bill, I only mentioned the wideband configuration because from what it sounded like Steve was being given information that I didn't know what I was doing setting up the Innovate on the PFC. I knew what I was doing when it came to the PFC, but like I told you and Don, I tune on AEM widebands and hadn't configured a Innovate LC1 before. Steve seems to be using this info to paint me as a novice, thus the push back from me.

As for posting the map, I'm all for it, but it's up to Don as he payed for it and it's up to his discretion what he wants to do with it. I'll post it but I need his approval first.

[QUOTE=Ball joint;11481355]Go ahead Steve, justify your unfounded claims, I knew how to calibrate the map sensor and Bill (boosted414) is knowingly lying to you to make you seem better then you are. He was there the entire time, how about we have Bill come on and testify and have Don backup that claim who is now the owner of a 505whp RX-7 to back it up. I think that would be interesting. How about you ask Bill how the Innovate software was supposed to be calibrated to my instructions prior to my arrival and due to Don's time constraints (to no fault of his own) wasn't done. How about we have Bill come on and tell the truth that they weren't able to get the serial adaptor to communicate with the Innovate setup program and it was ultimately Don that was able to get the serial adaptor connection to work. You're "little bird" is shitting on the hood of your claims, and to be honest should be making over 520whp given his setup. (by the way Bill, I'd gladly get you that power, even with everything aside).


What claims am I making? You're the one that is making claims. I hinted many times on this thread the answer to your claims yet you still having been able to grasp it. Do I need to hold your hands to step you through this? How much fuel was unburnt due to the HBP from overlap? Did you compensate the % in fuel due to overlap?


I love how you keep going into details on calibrations when you couldn't even give Don a basic drivability map and made excuses instead of producing results. All it took was a simple AFR tune to get him to a stable 13:5-13:8 AFR drivability tune to cure the drivability problems, took me all of 40 minutes. Like I said prior, your drivability tune had him ranging from 10:5-1AFR-17:5-1 between just two cells on the map. This is in my mind is pure laziness on your part, and it's a fact that Don can backup.


Calibration, Calibration, Calibration. Caibration is essential to ensure all your inputs were set correctly to provide the desired output. If one parameter is off, everything else is off. Obviously you have no concept of calibrations. Plug and play. Or in your case, plug and pray.


Ahhh... That's cute, talk shit about my own car to make yourself look better. See any breakup/detonation in any of those dyno pull videos I'm posting on this site? Last one was on a Mustang dyno in fourth gear with 70F ambient temps, I'm making nearly as much peak power as your "little bird" Bill on stock frame turbos. Want to talk shit about my tunes? Last number I saw you make on BNR's didn't even come close.


Oh wow!! Mustang dyno numbers. Do you even know how mustang dyno measure hp? What parameters were set prior to dyno your car? What mode was is it? Oh wait, I have a MD500 AWD DE at my shop. I would have gladly shown you how to operate it. Again... Calibration, Calibration, Calibration... There are more parameters on a mustang dyno that can affect the hp number than a dynojet.




Here's the thread where you tuned GoodfellaFD3S's car on Non-sequential BNR stage 3's.

BNR stage 3 low boost 366hp 13.5psi, 421rwhp (race gas!?) 17.5psi
https://www.rx7club.com/time-slips-d...esults-442095/

I love this one in particular, cause you complained earlier about me tuning on 100 octane for safety measures, yet you through in C16! to tune on 17.5psi. I guess race gas is a nice thing to have when you're building a new map as a safety measure. Sounds familier.


Again, you read parts of it and think that is how it goes. Must be your "google" mind at play. When I tuned Rich's car back in 2005 We have a mind set. Tune on pump gas and race gas and see how far we can go with the BNR turbos since Brian at BNR wanted to know. Part of the problem was that Rich does not have a datalogit so changing from pump gas map to race gas map was next to impossible. The only option was to do both on the same map (hint separation on cells/boost level to ensure they do not overlap and accidentally tune over it, which again you wouldn't have thought of that approach with your simple mind). He wasn't planning to drive more than 14psi on pump gas so we stopped at that level. We drained the gas and put race gas in for high boost. We stopped at 17.5psi because the turbos were maxed out and I told Rich we can go further but your gain will be minimal and could potential damage the engine if we push it. We agreed that he was happy with the results and stop there. BTW, this was on a dynopak (which you probably don't know how it works either). If you really want to find more numbers, dig "google", search Spoauto. The very first set of BNR every made and David Tansley for the highest sequential BNR turbo hp numbers. Both were on pump gas without the aid of aux inj or race gas. What version of BNR are you running? V3??? Again, you are still trying to make comparison on a totally different turbos.
Why not compare dyno numbers between a T04B vs. T51R SPL?? Both are T04 Based turbo. Google them in case you don't know the difference.



As for working off your map, sure, of course I did, I didn't have a map for a 500R which I know responds differently to a 35R. I heavily adjusted yours to make Don's map, but to give me shit about that would be the equivalent of giving a bread maker shit for not coming up with his own recipe for sourdough. Point is that if you have a base map to work off of; you load it in and work from there. If you don't, then you spend the time and effort to adapt what you have to make work for future builds. Every tuner does this, are you arguing that you create a completely brand new map for every single car you tune? I highly doubt your business model would work out otherwise.


Yes and No. The only database I use with my basemap happens to be Power FC. I create everything else from scratch. Ask anyone whom I tuned how much time I spent on the first 10-15 mins going through all the "calibrations" and making "adjustments" prior to the first pull. Haltech in particular takes even longer since I have to make more adjustments on every table. If you have the experience I have, you will know approximately what inj time and duty cycle it takes to create a map from scratch.

Let me guess your train of though, You assume everything was correct since I tuned it prior to you so you jump on the car and made the first pull immediately and see where everything is. You start making adjustments up to 17psi shown on the dyno and realized that you were running out of cell. You then blame that the calibration of the map sensor was off and readjust the scales to offset more boost. But instead of redoing the whole map again and wasting more time for yourself and Don since the "calibration" was off on the map sensor, you decided to just say xxxx it, I will tune with what was set.

That my man is lack of knowledge and experience. You should always look at every table prior to making the first pull. I doubt that you even look at any tables and parameters before you made the first pull. Do you even know what injectors he was running prior to your first pull? Did you verify parameters were set correctly? Oh wait, you have no concept of calibration so if it "works" its fine by you.


Gotta say one thing Steve, I can tell your pissed off, and I'm happy for it. Makes you actually come out into the wild instead of hiding behind the magic curtain of "conservative numbers" and makes you deal with the fact that you're delivering low power numbers while wearing the kings hat of "God of tuning" on this forum.


Pissed? Hardly, I do find it humorous that you are still going off on me and your "finding" was without giving any solid proof other than hp numbers. Have you done an ABA analysis to conclude your theory? Probably not. You probably don't even know what that means. Go "google" it.

As for me wearing the crown of "god of tuning"??? I never called myself the "god of tuning" I have learned a great deal talking to other tuners and I will continue to study new software as I go. Need a list for what I know so far?

(Accel Gen 7, AEM EMS, AEM (FIC) Fuel/Ignition Controller, A'PEXi Power FC/FC Edit (all cars/model), Autronic SMC, SM2 and SM4 , Cobb Accessport for Rx8/R35/MS6, MS3, G35/350Z/370Z, Subaru (Streettuner), Dynojet Power Commander / all models, DSM/ECM Link, EcuFlash for Subaru and Mitsubishi vehicles, EFI Live, Electromotive Tec 3 and Tec 3R, F.A.S.T. and F.A.S.T. XFI, GReddy Emanage and Emanage Ultimate, Haltech E6X(K), F10X, E6GMX, E8, E11v2 and Platinum 1000/2000, Pro, Haltech F10 Fuel Controller, Haltech Interceptor and Miniceptor, Hondata S300, Flash Pro and K-Pro, HP Tuners, Hydra EMS 2.5/2.6/2.7, Link G4, MAF Translator Pro, MAF Translator GenII and MAF Translator, MAP ECU I/II, Megasquirt, Mircotech LT8, LT10, LT12, MoTec M4, M48, M400, M600, M800 and M880, Neptune, Pro EFI, Rtek, SAFC or VAFC, SCT Flash, Turbo XS UTEC, UpRev, Wolf EMS)

However, I do dare to say that I have tuned more Rx7s in the US than any shop/person. I have approximately 10.6Mb of customer files in my database just on Power FC alone. This doesn't include all the vehicles I have tuned (domestic, euro and Import) and different formats of ECU. It would be stupid for me to tell you do the math on my combined files when other systems have different file size. Do the math or "google" how many files that is on PowerFc.

I was going to post how smooth that dyno reading was but turned out to be a better read than most threads lol

Now those are the comments I was expecting. Power comes on smooth and predictable.

As far as back and forth... that wasnt my intention. I was going for some good comments on the power curve and setup. If you are interested we can get into those details.

Talk all the shit you want Kan, all that matters is results, I got them, you didn't, done... If you want to continue this then call me out in another part of the forum.

Don I know I apologized to you over the phone for hijacking this thread, but seriously, sorry about that. and like I said above I'm done.

It was a pleasure and a honor to tune such a well built car and by well built I truly mean it. To have all the performance with all the creature comforts, I truly am jealous. Enjoy it man :-)

Don, I too wanted to apologized on this. There are a couple of things that concern me.. I dont recall stopping at 16psi on your car. I remembered tuning up to 18psi and showed no gain which is why I suggested the exhaust system may be the restriction. I recalled that you have a 20psi boost gauge. You should look into getting another gauge to verify the boost pressure. If the dyno truly reflects the 18psi that I think it is, then you are probably running 2psi higher than recorded on the dyno chart. The map sensor calibration is correct, find out what the peak value is and compare that to a new gauge.

422whp does seemed high giving the boost pressure indicated on the dyno chart and the restriction I saw with minimal gain above it.

Steve we did make a run at 18 but to your point saw minimal gain. We then dialed the boost back to 16psi since the extra 1.5 PSI wasn't really worth the power gains and the extra stress. The boost gauge is indeed 20PSI and I am in process of changing it, however the Commander settings align very closely to what the Dyno Stated in reading 21.95 PSI.

Bear in mind I had two runs with Ball Joint that achieve 505 RWHP back to back with similar MAX Booooost readings 21.95 and 21.78 I believe.

I will do more verification but I am pretty sure we are solid here. One other note. Joe pointed out to me that I should have a direct Vacuum line for my Wastegate (I had it T'd with my Water Injection when I first tuned) and when I provided it its own vac line, my boost level dropped from 16psi to 14psi as the wastegate was responding from it own line without the Water tank pressurization etc... I am not sure if that factored into the 2psi in question, but everything seemed to line up from my changes from the PFC to boost before the new dyno run with Joe and during.

damn, thats a bold statement to make. I came across this thread just cruising the forum and the same way you stand up for your clients, steve's client (i'm just one of hundreds) would probably step in for him....

saying that someone doesnt stand for this or that is, in my opinion, just bad business practice. I had steve tune my car. first time out, i had an idea that the clutch was gonna be the weakness as power levels increased. Sure enough clutch gave out, slipped as if it wasnt even there and my fear came to reality. this had nothing to do with the tune. i brought the car home, fixed/replaced/upgraded parts then went back to steve. this time around with a new ecu, per steve's recommendation. within 2 minutes, not even close to exaggeration, my car idled like factory. we got it on the dyno, and after a few hours had it running smoother than it has ever ran. idles rock solid at 900 rpm and carries smoothly all the way to rev limit, and i am talking smoother than hot butter. this map was done a year ago. steve knows i drive my car without mercy. this same map he did for me has me running on the same engine with no problems.

the time i was in his shop, steve walked me thru the changes he was making, explaining whats going on, even going as far as repairing some odds and ends on my car. when a question comes up regarding my car, i call or text to get his input. steve has even logged into my ecu from his laptop on dallas, while i drink a beer in my garage in el paso.

so to say that steve doesnt treat customers properly during tuning is a bunch of crap on your part man. this is just unprofessional regardless of situation.

btw, he went as far as insisting i stay at his place in order to save me some money on hotel costs....and even went as far as letting me drive his road race 7....i only wish there were longer stretches of road that day!!



one thing i can say is that steve knows whats up....tundra is faster than titan.......Lol.

Why do I miss all the juicy stuff on this forum, I need to read all this when I'm not on my cellphone. Regardless we still have a running rotary at the end of the day. Brap brap.

Gotta give Steve his props. The man knows his stuff, has tuned all of my rx7's and any fault with them I will gladly say was my fault alone. Got our 1000hp gtr shop car purring like a kitten plus many many more happy campers.Don't know who you are bro, and I can tell you, you sound like you're looking stripes. .wouldn't give you the time of day with all this bs you started.

Then don't give me the time of day, I only started this to give my perspective, take from it what you will. My prior words and results speak for themselves; Don's car is still running strong today, he is now happy with the car since I flew out and made the necessary corrections. Regardless of this old argument that's all I care about right now; my customer is happy.

You piggy back tuned one FD that Steve already tuned. In no way does this make you a better tuner, especially with the great rep he has. Conservative tunes on a rotary are the way to go, you should know that by now.

Hey man, curious if you may know where a respectable tuner is around the Cincinnati area?