Spring rate vs Ride comfort vs Performance database (FD3S)
#176
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Equivalent to 18.5/10.7 on a 2850 lb. FD (55 lb front/50 lb. rear unsprung).
#177
Senior Member
When looking at some of the track pics, those surfaces look glass smooth compared to the street. This is probably the largest difference, as driving on the track probably only requires a fraction of suspension travel needed. I tried the 11/11 on the street and the rear was definitely too stiff, you could probably get away with leaving the front alone, but back off the rear rate.
Anyway, speaking of suspension travel, with stiffer rates you will have more in reserve for bumps encountered while cornering because you aren't using up as much of it with lean.
You tried 11/11 and found that it was too stiff for you, for your usage (street). That doesn't mean it's universally true for everyone...
I do agree that for the street, 11/11 is on the stiff side for most people, and the even spring rates gives significant rear stiffness bias as well. IMO 11/9 or 11/8 would be a better street setup in general vs. 11/11. I also agree that softer rates like your 8/6 (still way stiffer than OEM) make a lot of sense and will be more enjoyable and handle great on the street.
Last edited by ZDan; 01-15-16 at 06:45 AM.
#178
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When looking at some of the track pics, those surfaces look glass smooth compared to the street. This is probably the largest difference, as driving on the track probably only requires a fraction of suspension travel needed. I tried the 11/11 on the street and the rear was definitely too stiff, you could probably get away with leaving the front alone, but back off the rear rate.
On surfaces that are glass and only need 1/4" of suspension travel, then yea, stiff springs will be just fine.
On surfaces that are glass and only need 1/4" of suspension travel, then yea, stiff springs will be just fine.
the FC won, btw. nicest FC i've seen in a LONG time. the orange miata is a 40K build, the last off broke something major
#180
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Here is just a little clip I took a while ago from an uphill drive they closed off for the day. those roads a good representative of what I drive on and the speeds are probably close to that since most of the smaller canyon roads are not busy at all.
Funny part is, when I went on the cruise up in 2014, we hit 150-160mph in some spots. We were going faster than these guys going "fast". The first car is supposed to be a pace car.
Video from the footage of the cruise. you see my black FD in there a bit.
Funny part is, when I went on the cruise up in 2014, we hit 150-160mph in some spots. We were going faster than these guys going "fast". The first car is supposed to be a pace car.
Video from the footage of the cruise. you see my black FD in there a bit.
#181
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Although I dont use very techy gear for measurements, I do use a pretty accurate 10hz GPS devices/apps to record my specific speeds at specific points on road courses. I also do go off my butt/feel and lap times to evaluate my suspension. Even with 12k/12k and 275/35/18 Zii tires, I am still waiting for the chassis to respond to my inputs.. especially at higher speeds. That waiting is time off the clock and my MPH on corner exits were lower with softer springs. Also, yes the lean can be disconcerting at 130mph, but I still bring the car to its ultimate edge of grip and exploit it.. I usually find this point by passing it on purpose which = understeer (boring) or a slide (fun). One of the most talented drivers I've met told me the best way to learn about your car (or a new car your racing) is to go out there are make it understeer. I liked his philosophy.
There was no doubt that the car was more stable and faster when I went from 10/8 to 12/10 and eventually 12/12 on the pettit track pro coilovers and I chopped down lap times with each move. I was bottoming out on 10/8 often especially on bumpy canyon roads. With the ohlins at 12/12 the damping was miles better so the car felt more flat, because it was leaning at a slower rate. This made it much more stable at high speeds however the car is still breaching ideal "wheel alignment"by leaning too much at some point. No doubt that softer springs work better on street roads. I am just sharing my .02 from my own road course experience. Later down the road when I up to 14k/14k I will post back and share the results.
Edit: Here is a old picture with 12k/10k springs and RS3 tires.
There was no doubt that the car was more stable and faster when I went from 10/8 to 12/10 and eventually 12/12 on the pettit track pro coilovers and I chopped down lap times with each move. I was bottoming out on 10/8 often especially on bumpy canyon roads. With the ohlins at 12/12 the damping was miles better so the car felt more flat, because it was leaning at a slower rate. This made it much more stable at high speeds however the car is still breaching ideal "wheel alignment"by leaning too much at some point. No doubt that softer springs work better on street roads. I am just sharing my .02 from my own road course experience. Later down the road when I up to 14k/14k I will post back and share the results.
Edit: Here is a old picture with 12k/10k springs and RS3 tires.
Last edited by ArmenMAxx; 01-15-16 at 05:30 PM.
#183
Fistful of steel
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Kirkey series 47 Road Race seat for the driver, and a Kirkey Pro Street Drag seat for the passenger. Gforce 5 point harnesses for both seats.
I have an Autopower roll bar in the car to tie the harnesses to.
Kirkey seats are very easy to fit in FCs and FDs. They also come in multiple widths and are pretty light.
I have an Autopower roll bar in the car to tie the harnesses to.
Kirkey seats are very easy to fit in FCs and FDs. They also come in multiple widths and are pretty light.
Last edited by LargeOrangeFont; 01-15-16 at 08:47 PM.
#184
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Although I dont use very techy gear for measurements, I do use a pretty accurate 10hz GPS devices/apps to record my specific speeds at specific points on road courses. I also do go off my butt/feel and lap times to evaluate my suspension. Even with 12k/12k and 275/35/18 Zii tires, I am still waiting for the chassis to respond to my inputs.. especially at higher speeds. That waiting is time off the clock and my MPH on corner exits were lower with softer springs. Also, yes the lean can be disconcerting at 130mph, but I still bring the car to its ultimate edge of grip and exploit it.. I usually find this point by passing it on purpose which = understeer (boring) or a slide (fun). One of the most talented drivers I've met told me the best way to learn about your car (or a new car your racing) is to go out there are make it understeer. I liked his philosophy.
There was no doubt that the car was more stable and faster when I went from 10/8 to 12/10 and eventually 12/12 on the pettit track pro coilovers and I chopped down lap times with each move. I was bottoming out on 10/8 often especially on bumpy canyon roads. With the ohlins at 12/12 the damping was miles better so the car felt more flat, because it was leaning at a slower rate. This made it much more stable at high speeds however the car is still breaching ideal "wheel alignment"by leaning too much at some point. No doubt that softer springs work better on street roads. I am just sharing my .02 from my own road course experience. Later down the road when I up to 14k/14k I will post back and share the results.
Edit: Here is a old picture with 12k/10k springs and RS3 tires.
There was no doubt that the car was more stable and faster when I went from 10/8 to 12/10 and eventually 12/12 on the pettit track pro coilovers and I chopped down lap times with each move. I was bottoming out on 10/8 often especially on bumpy canyon roads. With the ohlins at 12/12 the damping was miles better so the car felt more flat, because it was leaning at a slower rate. This made it much more stable at high speeds however the car is still breaching ideal "wheel alignment"by leaning too much at some point. No doubt that softer springs work better on street roads. I am just sharing my .02 from my own road course experience. Later down the road when I up to 14k/14k I will post back and share the results.
Edit: Here is a old picture with 12k/10k springs and RS3 tires.
Thanks for your feedback. What size tires and wheels are you running?
Andy
#185
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ninesixtwo
What's everyone running for seat/harness?
Bride Vios III Japan seats/LowMax rails and Takata (Schroth) Drift III DOT harnesses/Sparco FIA eye-bolts/RotaryExtreme harness bar.
It is a great question, I couldn't hold a corner in the stock seats nearly as well.
Was reading an accident physics study and was disheartened to read they found the average driver can only tolerate 0.3Gs before they panic and crash because of poor inputs and their driving line is 8% tighter than the center-line turn radius instead of a larger radius like a "racing line".
So, remember that is whom we share the road with.
What's everyone running for seat/harness?
Bride Vios III Japan seats/LowMax rails and Takata (Schroth) Drift III DOT harnesses/Sparco FIA eye-bolts/RotaryExtreme harness bar.
It is a great question, I couldn't hold a corner in the stock seats nearly as well.
Was reading an accident physics study and was disheartened to read they found the average driver can only tolerate 0.3Gs before they panic and crash because of poor inputs and their driving line is 8% tighter than the center-line turn radius instead of a larger radius like a "racing line".
So, remember that is whom we share the road with.
Last edited by BLUE TII; 01-15-16 at 09:21 PM.
#187
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So... what's different about Ohlin's that makes them so great? I've read their materials and many reviews but it always seems like people are going from basic shock/spring combos or shitty coilovers to them and the apparent improvement is simply from quality control and a not-stupid valving choice.
I am especially curious as (in particular) Fortune 510's are ~2k now, come with custom rates, and are dyno tested (and presumably consistent), while a custom set of Bilstein's will command ~1.5k+, and can be setup for nearly anything desired if you or someone you know/pay knows how to or gets lucky.
I am especially curious as (in particular) Fortune 510's are ~2k now, come with custom rates, and are dyno tested (and presumably consistent), while a custom set of Bilstein's will command ~1.5k+, and can be setup for nearly anything desired if you or someone you know/pay knows how to or gets lucky.
Last edited by valley; 01-18-16 at 08:46 PM.
#188
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So... what's different about Ohlin's that makes them so great? I've read their materials and many reviews but it always seems like people are going from basic shock/spring combos or shitty coilovers to them and the apparent improvement is simply from quality control and a not-stupid valving choice.
I am especially curious as (in particular) Fortune 510's are ~2k now, come with custom rates, and are dyno tested (and presumably consistent), while a custom set of Bilstein's will command ~1.5k+, and can be setup for nearly anything desired if you or someone you know/pay knows how to or gets lucky.
I am especially curious as (in particular) Fortune 510's are ~2k now, come with custom rates, and are dyno tested (and presumably consistent), while a custom set of Bilstein's will command ~1.5k+, and can be setup for nearly anything desired if you or someone you know/pay knows how to or gets lucky.
The linear valving is harsher at high velocities.
The bilstein is harsh in low movements because fluid cannot freely move.
On the compression side of things ohlins change compression and damping to match them up, which I agree with. you change low speed compression adding some more stiffness to the suspension while leaving mid to high speed movements alone. the damping matches the curve as well.
Fortune doesn't do this. They have a generic compression curve and only changes damping.
I am a big fan of ohlins damping and especially the damping in the lower (softer) damping settings. its softer damping for comfort and blows off at the top for better compliance. It also ramps into mid speed smoothly so its nice and compliant. you can adjust the damping to be much more aggressive, both ends of the spectrum.
fortune dampers are a little more harsh in terms of their damping, you want smooth transitions.
I purchased more Ohlins dfv on group buy for basically the same price as the fortune 510's.
#189
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Geez I'm glad I got my Fortune 510s when I did. I have been pretty happy with mine, but they seem to be a more race oriented valving setup as noted by lookatme. I can see Ohlins being a bit better on the street. That is probably why lookatme likes the feel of them with softer springs. If I drastically dropped the spring rates on my Fortune 510s the car would feel overdamped on the street.
I have ran custom valved Bilsteins on other cars, but not on my RX7. The Fortune spring recommendation was not ideal when I worked with them, but I have dialed in the spring rates now.
As far as Bilsteins go, you can have Bilstein revalve them. They are fairly knowledgeable, and do a good job if you give them all the details of the car.
I have ran custom valved Bilsteins on other cars, but not on my RX7. The Fortune spring recommendation was not ideal when I worked with them, but I have dialed in the spring rates now.
As far as Bilsteins go, you can have Bilstein revalve them. They are fairly knowledgeable, and do a good job if you give them all the details of the car.
Last edited by LargeOrangeFont; 01-18-16 at 09:25 PM.
#190
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fatcatmotorsports reworks a bilstein shock with a ripple reducer, same as the ohlins DFV technology, to reduce the little ripples in the road, it allows the fluid to move freely back and fourth. I bet its expensive to have it redone this way.
#192
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I am not sure if it was a damping mismatch or if the road and speed I was driving with those rates put it at a natural frequency or something like that. The car with the 11/11 felt better at low speeds in transition. Felt like you could really throw the car around, but the 8/6 had more overall grip, just the body would move around more. Once you get used to the body movement and learn how to drive the car with this movement it becomes more normal. the 8/6 is still stiff in terms of ride, but its not really stiff like the 11/11. Going over that same little whoop section where the 11/11 acted like a pogo stick, the 8/6 I went over and I didn't even notice there were bumps.
I am running 12/12 from full stiff on damping settings with the softer rate springs.
Last edited by lOOkatme; 01-19-16 at 08:17 AM.
#193
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You know part of that is because you have your tires stretched, right? I don't want to go through the debate again, but that is what you lose by stretching the tires. You have nothing to lean on at all because the sidewall is in tension. The car will want to snap away as it breaks traction, as opposed to a more progressive slide. A more square sidewall lets the car roll onto the tire a bit more.
Just saying.
But yes, if the car is bouncing around, you have too much spring.
Just saying.
But yes, if the car is bouncing around, you have too much spring.
#194
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I found the Ohlins-recommended 10 clicks out to be way too little low-speed damping for my liking even on the street. I run 6-8 clicks on the street, 4-6 at the track.
#195
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You know part of that is because you have your tires stretched, right? I don't want to go through the debate again, but that is what you lose by stretching the tires. You have nothing to lean on at all because the sidewall is in tension. The car will want to snap away as it breaks traction, as opposed to a more progressive slide. A more square sidewall lets the car roll onto the tire a bit more.
Just saying.
But yes, if the car is bouncing around, you have too much spring.
Just saying.
But yes, if the car is bouncing around, you have too much spring.
#196
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lOOkatme
But yes, if the car is bouncing around, you have too much spring.
the car rides more rough with a stretched tire, but I found the opposite for breakaway characteristics. the car behaves more predictably with stretched tires than it did with square.
That is what I and my friends that raced my FD found as well. Slight stretch on a tire that liked slip angle made the car transition in and out of higher slip angles seamlessly.
One friend told me it was disconcerting because he could not tell when the car was sliding or not. I asked him what does it matter?
I did notice when I ran my FCs 16s with 50 series sidewall R-S3 on the FD with Ohlins the ride did feel much smoother, but it felt under damped over small bumps. I would have thought it would be over damped on rebound since the wheel/tire was 16lbs lighter then the 18s I had adjusted the damping for.
Took me a second to realize it was because you cannot damp tire sidewall flex and R-S3 have a very soft sidewall even at 45psi.
#197
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lOOkatme
But yes, if the car is bouncing around, you have too much spring.
the car rides more rough with a stretched tire, but I found the opposite for breakaway characteristics. the car behaves more predictably with stretched tires than it did with square.
That is what I and my friends that raced my FD found as well. Slight stretch on a tire that liked slip angle made the car transition in and out of higher slip angles seamlessly.
One friend told me it was disconcerting because he could not tell when the car was sliding or not. I asked him what does it matter?
I did notice when I ran my FCs 16s with 50 series sidewall R-S3 on the FD with Ohlins the ride did feel much smoother, but it felt under damped over small bumps. I would have thought it would be over damped on rebound since the wheel/tire was 16lbs lighter then the 18s I had adjusted the damping for.
Took me a second to realize it was because you cannot damp tire sidewall flex and R-S3 have a very soft sidewall even at 45psi.
I also feel that the car tracks straighter under braking as well. Its a different feel going from a 10" wide wheel to an 11.5" wide wheel. it is one of my favorite mods on the car.
#198
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I should clarify slightly what I meant. Going through a washboard corner section of road with stretched tires could be more unstable and could result in less consistency. That is what I noticed when pushing my car on the street. Dropping spring rates would help that. The caveat is that there is so much inconsistency on a street anyway, it is hard to nail down. On a track I agree that a more stretched tire would likely be more consistent.
Keep in mind I am speaking from an FC standpoint, and they like a bit less tire stretch than an FD from all I have seen.
To Blue TII's and lookatme's point, you set the car up for the tires you are running.
Keep in mind I am speaking from an FC standpoint, and they like a bit less tire stretch than an FD from all I have seen.
To Blue TII's and lookatme's point, you set the car up for the tires you are running.
Last edited by LargeOrangeFont; 01-20-16 at 09:53 AM.
#199
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I should clarify slightly what I meant. Going through a washboard corner section of road with stretched tires could be more unstable and could result in less consistency.
Agree, even very good suspension can use a little help still from the tire sidewall. We are not yet at the point in suspension design where we can run non-pneumatic tires, but we sure are getting closer.
#200
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LargeOrangeFont
I should clarify slightly what I meant. Going through a washboard corner section of road with stretched tires could be more unstable and could result in less consistency.
Agree, even very good suspension can use a little help still from the tire sidewall. We are not yet at the point in suspension design where we can run non-pneumatic tires, but we sure are getting closer.