Drift Setup
 

Hi Guys,

I just got back from the Falken Tire Drift event at Irwindale on March 2. I am wondering if anyone can give me some advice on a proper drift setup for an FD. And how to make the car more stable with less oversteer. The car currently turns in great but the back is so touchy. You don't even have to pitch the car too much and it will start to oversteer. Just trail braking lightly will set the car in a drift. I actually don't mind that too much but when I make a transition towards the other direction while holding a drift (during pendulums (i think i spelled it wrong)) , the transfer is abrupt and somewhat unpredictible. The car just wants to keep rotating. So I pretty much have to be very light on the throttle to keep it from spinning.

I am currently running Tein HA coilovers w/ pillowball mounts with stock wheels running 245/45/16 ES100 in the back and I have 245/45/16 Toyo T1-S in the front. The alignment settings I think (i have to go back and check) is: Front: Camber -2.5
Toe out .25 (i think)
Caster +6

Rear: Camber -1.7
Toe in .25 (i think)
Thrust 0

I am thinking of moving up to 17" so I can run them I little wider but I think its the offset of the stock that's making it loose. I want to run the lowest offset I can on the stock rolled fenders hoping that the wider track will help. I don't know but I need to set it up tighter before the next event. If anyone has any advice on how to make the car oversteer less and more stable, I am open to suggestions.

Thanks,
Calvin
Red FD w/ Black stock wheels
calsonic381@hotmail.com

bump

For less oversteer, just follow the basic rules to reduce it by increasing rear traction:
(1) stickier tires, either bigger or stickier rubber
(2) softer spings
(3) smaller/less stiff swaybar
(4) more negative camber, up to a max point
(5) less weight
(6) lower roll center

Your first obvious error is the -2.5 front camber with only -1.7 in the rear. That will do it even with all else in balance.

Re: Drift Setup
 

Shows how clueless I am: I thought drifting WAS oversteer.

Quote:

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...running 245/45/16 ES100 in the back and I have 245/45/16 Toyo T1-S in the front.

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Try putting the Toyos in back and see what you think.

I think he meant trying to control the tendency for FD to snap oversteer. It would oversteer and turns into spin.

reza

just get a set of kumho ecsta supra 712s, and you'll be the reigning drift champ :)

Hi Guys,

cewrx7r1 For less oversteer, just follow the basic rules to reduce it by increasing rear traction:
(1) stickier tires, either bigger or stickier rubber
(2) softer spings
(3) smaller/less stiff swaybar
(4) more negative camber, up to a max point
(5) less weight
(6) lower roll center

Your first obvious error is the -2.5 front camber with only -1.7 in the rear. That will do it even with all else in balance.


During the Drift Showoff 3/2/03, my car was oversteering excessively. It had a tendency to over rotate. During direction changes / pendulums, the transfer is abrupt, hard to keep it from spinning. I set the tire pressures cold at 34 front and 32 rear. By competition time, pressures rose 2-3 psi all around so I drop the pressures back to my cold pressures and it oversteered more. I think the ES100's compound is a bit harder so it heats up quick. That's why by competition time it felt like it was loosest it's been all day.

I also believe my alignment may be the main issue because it had been set up for autocrosses. I found out what the real numbers were:

Front: Camber: -2.5
Toe out: 0.03
Caster: 7.3
Tire Pressures: 34 psi

Rear: Camber -1.7
Toe in 0.04
Thrust 0
Tire Pressure: 32 psi

stock rims 16x8 w/ +50 offset with 245/45zr16 all around.

Here is a setting I might try out for the next event. I will use it as a baseline. (I think this is the setting the D1 Apexi car is running)

Front: Camber: -2.5
Toe: 0.00
Caster: 6
Tire Pressures: 33 psi

Rear: Camber -2.0
Toe in 0.03
Thrust 0
Tire Pressure: 31 psi

I'm also going to add spacers for the stock wheels +15mm in the front and +25mm in the rear.


RS-R Drift Festival 4/6/03

I just tried running a staggered tire setup of Yokohama ES100 225/50zr16 w/ +15 offset in the fronts and 245/45zr16 w/ +25 offset in the rears on stock wheels. I got some understeer mid-drift which stablized the car and it keep the oversteer more controlable, but the initial turn-in was a lot slower.

Before the event, I tried a softer rear sway bar from a 2001 RZ I think it's the same as the touring bar, but it felt like it would just squat and grip and when it drifted it felt sloppy. So I put the R1 bar back on.

But during the feint transitions, it is still very abupt. It seems like the 16's sidewalls would bounce during the weight transfers. I had trouble keeping up with the steering during the recoils.

After the practice right before the competition, I dialed in 2 notches of more negative camber in the rear (It looked like it was the same amount as the fronts -2.5), But the whole day, I was adjusting the shocks backwards. I kept softening the rears 2 clicks, and stiffening the fronts 1 click, the whole time.

But the car seemed like it felt better than the 3/2 setup.


I think moving up to 17" maybe even 18" would make the transfers less adrupt.

I have until 5/24 to try a new setup.

Any suggustions?

Calvin
Red FD3S

I haven't tried this alignment yet, I want to try it for the 5/24 DD5.

Front: Camber: -2.5
Toe: 0.00
Caster: 6
Tire Pressures: 33 psi

Rear: Camber -2.0
Toe in 0.03
Thrust 0
Tire Pressure: 31 psi

What kind of drifter are you? What i do i mean? What kind of style do you use? If you have alot of power then go grip setup where you can break loose easy with the accelerator (you need a FUCKEN strong clutch). If you have more than stock but not alot to call it BIG power than you should with something not AS sticky tires.

-joe

He does the drift competition in LA.
This guy is a real drifter even at autocross.

Reza

I just got a pair of AVS Sports 225/50/16 for the rear. And I am still running the ES100 225/50/16 in the fronts. I am running the same size all around because I am experiementing different tire compounds to see whats best for drift. I never tried AVS Sports but supposedly it's a softer / grippier tire than the ES100's.

This whole drift thing is getting hella expensive. I have been going through tires like crazy. I'm kinda scared to move up to 17" or 18" because of the tire cost. But it's fun as hell.

Oh... Thanks for the input, LetsGO7, you helped my decision on the tire choice. My car has a 2000 RZ motor with the old 8 bit management. It only has a downpipe, stock cat, straight pipe and M2 stage 3 ecu. So it has a more hp than stock but not BIG power. It's boosting too high so I am tring to keep the boost down for now.

So that's why I choose a stickier compound but smaller size. I am still experiementing so any more input would be great.

Thanks,
Calvin

Calvin,

You neeed a GOOD fucken clutch man! your suspension needs to be stiff also. Some say this is a "BAD SETUP" but you want your car to be setup as a circuit racer.

Why? Because you need all the chassis engine and tire (basically the whole car) feedback to your ass in order for you to gas, counter, brake, and etc. Another reason is that when drifting on a track the judges likes to see the driver drift the whole track not just the points (corners) where YOU HAVE TO drift.

Therefore alot of turn changes come about. I have heard that the american scene's drifting misses out on alot of skills compare to japan but one thing that really shows is the part where the car is drifting right and quickly changing to left. Americans kind of "rolls" and switches but Japanese "cuts" when switching. Cutting looks ALOT (100% X 99999999999) FUCKEN better!

So by having ample power and stiff suspension, you should be good to go.

Also on tires...I see alot of drifters get tires that are smaller, as in width, for there wheels. It makes the center on the tire tred go up , so it looks like a semi-oval. Why? I forgot. They were talking about it on Option but that was like the first D-1 GP in japan, like a year ago. I think it's for tred saving and rubbing on fenders.

Hope this helps
-joe

OH and one more thing, get used tires and shitty wheels

shit forgot to add, for practicing of course :)

First of all, you should be using/getting free tires (stock rims should be able to hold 205-245mm tires)! Just go down to the local tire shops and ask them if they got extra ones they are gonna throw away. It cost the local guys here in hawaii about 3-5 bucks to dump them so they are very happy to see me come around. I got like 25 tires outside my house right now :D Theh last time I went down to get tires, I hauled away 11 sweet ass tires in my benz. They got a crap load of meat still left on them too :) (its jsut stupid to be drifting with good tires in the rear, in about 10 mins, they should be shreaded if not in the wet). I personnaly like to use clutch kick or power over for slower corners (although when ever I do use power over, I never seem to stay on the gas enuff to carry me thru the corners, nothing a little more practice wont help). BTW: There will be a signal auto drift clinic on may 25, come to hawaii if you can, they will be bringing 2 D1 cars down this time :D

We have somewhat closer drift clinic's (LA) we have one each month. The next one for us is may 24th and then the D1 comp in June. Then another one july 5th (going to this one for sure).

oh there are drift events every month here, its jsut that this would be the signal auto drift clinic (something a little special they put on every year :D)

Yah wish that came over here. Your hella lucky.:p:

Why wait for it or wait for somebody else to make it happen for you. Make it happen for yourself. That's how every other new event gets started.

It's not easy, but it's worth it.

Isn't Club4AG hosting a drift clinic at Candlestick or 3Com park soon?

Sure, but what about the other 90+% of the U.S. that isn't near SoCal. ;)

Yup and ill be joining that for sure.

I definately think slightly bigger wheels will help a bit on the transitions. Hmm, how much can you set rear camber for? I get the impression that slightly more rear camber (like what you have planned for DD5) would help stabilize the rear on transitions. Might want to try the same size/width of the same tire all the way around also.

Hmm, I don't understand too much about suspension geometry, but may I ask why you plan on running with "Toe in: 0.03" + more camber at the rear?

Oh and one more thing, could it be that your Castor is just a tad bit too much?

neevosh - Isn't Club4AG hosting a drift clinic at Candlestick or 3Com park soon?

Semi Confirmed - Drift Day 6 @ 3 Com - July 5 (www.driftday.com)

I'm trying to keep the rear from oversteering too much. A little toe in helps the wheels track a bit better. It helps keeps that axle stable through turns. Some negative camber will help flatten out the tire patch when the wheel is under cornering load. The Caster right now is at 7.3. I want to drop it to 6 degs. That's what I have seen to be suggested. The caster will help the steering recoil during feints (pendulums).

I just came from an private event in Irwindale on 5/2. I ran 225/50/16 ES100's on the fronts and 225/50/16 AVS Sports on the rears. With -2.5 deg. camber on the fronts and about the same -2.5 on the rears (I eyeballed it (2 notches)). The car feels a lot better now. The smaller tires all around makes the car very easy to pitch out but I have to be very light on every thing to keep it from spinning. I don't have to throw it as hard as with the 245's. I think the softer AVS Sports compound feels like it holds a bit better but it still heats up like the ES100's so I had to spray the tires to cool it down in between runs. I don't think I need to run that much rear camber but I just did it to try it. I am not sure if the camber made too much difference but I like the AVS Sports. I decided to try same tire sizes just to test compounds and I think this setup is okay for stock wheels on parking lot surfaces. I'm still experiementing.

I don't know. I think I am thinking too much on setup and I should just worry about building up my skill. The more events I go to, the more confident I feel. So I am just trying to attend as many drift events as I can. I hope to see more FD's drifting at events so we can all help each other out.

Calvin
Red FD3S

neevosh - Isn't Club4AG hosting a drift clinic at Candlestick or 3Com park soon?

Semi Confirmed - Drift Day 6 @ 3 Com - July 5 (www.driftday.com)

I'm trying to keep the rear from oversteering too much. A little toe in helps the wheels track a bit better. It helps keeps that axle stable through turns. Some negative camber will help flatten out the tire patch when the wheel is under cornering load. The Caster right now is at 7.3. I want to drop it to 6 degs. That's what I have seen to be suggested. The caster will help the steering recoil during feints (pendulums).

I just came from an private event in Irwindale on 5/2. I ran 225/50/16 ES100's on the fronts and 225/50/16 AVS Sports on the rears. With -2.5 deg. camber on the fronts and about the same -2.5 on the rears (I eyeballed it (2 notches)). The car feels a lot better now. The smaller tires all around makes the car very easy to pitch out but I have to be very light on every thing to keep it from spinning. I don't have to throw it as hard as with the 245's. I think the softer AVS Sports compound feels like it holds a bit better but it still heats up like the ES100's so I had to spray the tires to cool it down in between runs. I don't think I need to run that much rear camber but I just did it to try it. I am not sure if the camber made too much difference but I like the AVS Sports. I decided to try same tire sizes just to test compounds and I think this setup is okay for stock wheels on parking lot surfaces. I'm still experiementing. It's kinda hard to tell the difference in setups because I don't have the different tires at the same time to compare. The different events are sometimes on different types of pavements so I don't know if it's the setup or my technique or pavement types that's affecting it.

I don't know. I think I am thinking too much on setup and I should just worry about building up my skill. The more events I go to, the more confident I feel. So I am just trying to attend as many drift events as I can. I hope to see more FD's drifting at events so we can all help each other out.

Calvin
Red FD3S

Cool, I was there at the Private event :D .... Just being an innocent bystander though. Looked pretty good out there. At first, it seemed like your tail would step out a little too much higher in your RPM's. But after awhile, seemed you got the hang of it :D

Okay I'm semi recovered from the Drift Day 5 weekend. Too much long distance driving / not enough sleep.:o:

I learned a lot this weekend. I posted before about testing the tire compounds. I ran Yokohama ES100 and AVS Sports in the 225/50/16 size on stock wheels. I put the ES100 on the rear at first and the AVS's on the front. They were gripping okay at first but when they started to heat up, they just wouldn't grip anymore. I just kept on spinning, very hard to recover.

So I moved the AVS Sports to rear. Big difference. A lot more controllable grip. The car will recover a lot better. The AVS wears very similiar to the ES100's. Very durable, no chunking. Irwindale's parking lot's asphalt is very smooth with decent grip. So it does not wear tires down too much. I can't say the same for 3 Com's pavement. It's a bit more abrasive there with not too much grip. You will wear tires down more there.

The thing that I learned from the weekend about tires is about tire pressures and heat ranges. I was trying to keep the pressures at 34 psi in the front and 32 psi in the rear. What I learned was that tires grip differently when they are cold and when they are hot. When they are cold, the tires seem to grip better, but they don't want to be slipped. When you slip them cold, they give out quick. I kept spinning during my first runs because they were unpredictable. When you heat the tires up a bit, the air pressures will increase so you have to drop them back down to your set pressures, but they grip very predictably. I was able to hold the feints a lot better when they were at their right temps. But then they started to get overheated and they would just start to lose grip a together. Thus, more spins. So I started to spary the tires down with water to cool them down to bring them back to optimal temps and they would grip again. I guess you have to have them within their temp range or they won't perform right.

I did not try this but I think I will do burnouts in the begining of cold runs to heat the tires up. I actually remeber seeing some D1 guys donig burnouts before their runs, I guess that's why they do it. I thought they were were just trying to be cool or something.:p:

Reza came down with me and helped me out a lot all day. He took hella pictures, so you guys can see them at: www.berudu.com/rx-7

Go down to the gallery section and it's under May 2003 / Drift Day 5

calvin do you drive your FD as a daily driver? if so hows the wear w/ such a high negative camber?

I actually don't drive the FD too much on the street anymore. I figure it's getting a lot of abuse already, so I'm trying to keep the mileage down. Plus it got too many damn stickers on it and people don't understand what it's for and I'm tried of explaining why the graphics are backwards on the other side.

So sorry I can't really tell you how the camber wears the tires during daily driving. But I think the fronts will wear down pretty quick with -2.5 degs. But if you drive your car hard you might need the camber so you don't wear the shoulders down.

Calvin

I run between 1.5 and 2 degrees negatice up front and I average just under 25,000 miles from a set of street tires. Those are "easy" miles as the car is always raced on race rubber.

How about in the rear?

Sup Guys,

I'm back from the D1 Driver Search. That was a very fun event. It was nice to see Drift King himself actually making a demo run. There were 7 D1 cars that came out. Holy shxx they are savs! They were drifting hella close to each other and the Team Orange guys were drifting 3 wide, side by side, through the turns. Crazy asses. I can't wait to see what these guys do in August.


I have finally found a decent setup that kinda works for the equipment that I have been running.

Suspension:

Tein HA

- Front Spring Rate: 10kg
- Rear Spring Rate: 8kg

This springs are too soft for competitive drifting. The car will drift fine in parking lots with these but if you drift on the track at higher speeds, they are a little soft. The D1 Apexi FD runs 16kg fronts and 14kg rears.

Dampening
- Front: 1 click down from full stiff
- Rear: full stiff

- Dampening: You need the car to be stiff especially in the rears so you can keep it siding and transfer the weight quickly and smoothly. You want the fronts to grip during entry but understeer a little during mid drift so you can carry speed and keep forward momentum. FD's tend to rotate very easily so you need to do what ever it takes to keep it from spinning all the damn time.

- Height: You want your car to be low. But not too low so you ride on the bump stops. This helps transfer the weight quicker and it is less abrupt. You can adjust under/oversteer with height. If you want more oversteer: lower the front, raise the rear. If you want more understeer: lower the rear, raise the front.

Stock R1 Sway bars
(The D1 Apexi FD runs an stiffer adjustable front bar.)


Stock Wheels

Tires:
I have been trying different sizes and brands, new and used. The best tires that I have tried so far are the Yokohama AVS Sports. They have good grip and they are a softer compound than the ES100's. I haven't gotten the AVS Sports to chunk yet but the ES100's chunked a little bit on the track where the speeds and loads are higher. FD's need grippy tires to hold drifts. You can use cheaper tires for practice but for competitions I suggest newer grippy rubber for more control. I have yet to try some other brands. I am interested in how they perform.
I am planning to move up to 17" or 18". I think wider, lower profile tires will help control and grip better than 16"s.

Fronts: 225/50/16
Rears: 245/45/16

Offsets:

I have been running H & R spacer all around. The stock +50 offset is too deep in the wheelwell. A wider track helps stability. I have the offset staggered to increase rear grip. (My wheelwells are rolled and I actually have a little more room all around, but I think the wheels won't rub if you run staggered sized tires)

Front: 15mm
Rear: 25 mm

So the actual offsets for the stock 16x8 wheels are:
Front: +35
Rear: +25


- Calvin

My alignment by C2 Automotive in Oakland (510) 272-9869 is currently set at:

Front: Camber: -2.5
Toe: 0
Caster: 6.5

Rear: Camber: -2.0
Toe-in: 0.03"

- Calvin