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I just took my FD in for an alignment today. The front left corner came in with 10.6 degrees of positive caster. The right was closer to 7 (reasonable). The tech wasn't able to dial it back, or at least not without messing up the camber. Obviously the car pulls to the right. I would like to minimize and equalize caster but I can't tell why this is so far out of spec.
Frame is not bent
No damage to A arms, upper or lower
Slide bushings all look new, can't detect any play, though I will pry around more
My only leads are the rear pivot bushing which, according to the service manual, is fluid-filled; and maybe ball joints? I'm not getting any other typical ball joint symptoms like popping/banging, and I can't shake the wheel at all side to side with the steering locked.
Any input is much appreciated. I'm going to inspect the coilover and its bushing more closely tomorrow.
Only time we had issues, the lower arm was bent....not detectable by eye....but immediately rectified when another arm was installed.
In that case, you couldn't get enough castor, so lower ball joint had gone backwards. I couldn't imagine a flogged out rear pivot bush giving you more castor - the exact opposite would be the case.
Only time we had issues, the lower arm was bent....not detectable by eye....but immediately rectified when another arm was installed.
In that case, you couldn't get enough castor, so lower ball joint had gone backwards. I couldn't imagine a flogged out rear pivot bush giving you more castor - the exact opposite would be the case.
Shock will have zero input.
Interesting. You'd think you could see it if it was bent enough.
I suspect it might be bent upwards and forwards, like the previous owner backed it down a curb or something. No gouges underneath though.
Here's a picture of my wheel well. You can see in the upper left bracket that the upper arm is sitting crooked. I think this means the lower arm is bent, not the upper, since the lower controls the alignment. It's not as noticeable in the picture as it is in real life.
Or maybe the upper ball joint is seized, but I didn't check that.
The welds holding the upper a-arm mount to the rest of the unibody look especially poopy on your car, so they have probably been done by a body shop.
I mean, the factory welds won't win a weld-**** beauty contest, but those look...
Plus the inside of the cupped upper a-arm mounts look like clean etching primered metal like when you get new parts from Mazda and unlike the surrounding metal and unlike how the inside cupped surface usually looks on these cars.
For a quick fix, you could take the upper a-arm off the chassis and gently massage the fronts of the a-arm mounting cups forward/open a bit with a light hammer and then put the a-arm back in with big stainless fender washers on the backside to bring the upper a-arm forward.
Or for a better fix, grind off the welds on the a-arm mounting cups and have them welded on in the right spots.
Might want to get the car on an frame straightening rig to check it out, if the body shop that did the repairs couldn't be bothered to bring it back to where it could be aligned properly it might need more work.
The welds holding the upper a-arm mount to the rest of the unibody look especially poopy on your car, so they have probably been done by a body shop.
I mean, the factory welds won't win a weld-**** beauty contest, but those look...
Plus the inside of the cupped upper a-arm mounts look like clean etching primered metal like when you get new parts from Mazda and unlike the surrounding metal and unlike how the inside cupped surface usually looks on these cars.
For a quick fix, you could take the upper a-arm off the chassis and gently massage the fronts of the a-arm mounting cups forward/open a bit with a light hammer and then put the a-arm back in with big stainless fender washers on the backside to bring the upper a-arm forward.
Or for a better fix, grind off the welds on the a-arm mounting cups and have them welded on in the right spots.
Might want to get the car on an frame straightening rig to check it out, if the body shop that did the repairs couldn't be bothered to bring it back to where it could be aligned properly it might need more work.
But hey! I could be wrong. Lets hope so.
Very good point. I didn't even notice the welds until you pointed it out in the picture. Yes, the car had a few repairs done in Japan.
Moving the upper a arm forward will correct this? I thought it was solely controlled by the lower. Please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm trying to learn everything I can about these cars. From what I understood, the upper control arm only really controls the camber under jounce and everything static is dialed in on the lowers. Shouldn't the ball joint have enough pivot to let the upper not affect the lower in this situation? If not I guess I will need to crack the bolt at the rear pivot point when I move the upper forward, and then have the car realigned.
Maybe the lower brackets were welded on in the wrong place too, haha. Really appreciate the help so far!
Caster is the angle that the steering axis from vertical when viewed from the side (so straight on from the face of the wheel).
The steering axis is a straight line drawn from the upper ball joint through the lower ball joint on double a-arm (double wishbone) suspension.
Factory caster adjustment is by moving the lower arm forward and backward on the rear lower a-arm mounting eccentric on the subframe.
If you move the upper a-arm you also change caster, though there is no provision for doing so from the factory.
It would be best to have the car put on a frame measuring/straightening rig and checked out (though not cheap).
Even if you are able to get into a good static alignment by using shims, etc there is no guarantee the dynamic alignment will be correct (the alignment as the suspension/steering go through their strokes.
Dynamic alignment can only be achieved when all the suspension/steering mounting points are in exactly the correct location as will be measured on a frame measuring/straightening rig.
I get it now. I thought it was defined by the upper strut mount's angle to the lower A arm. Well, it definitely sounds like it could work if I bend them and add some washers. The question is how far forward does it need to come to take off 3 degrees... Time to bring out the protractor I haven't used in years, lol. Thanks a lot for your help! I'll inspect the lower for welds as well and update the thread if this works.
It does indeed look like the upper a arm is quite close to the shock body. Usually, it is more centered. It could be the angle of the pic but it does look off as Blue mentioned. I'd have that looked at. I don't see how you can add any washers to the mounting points. There just isn't enough space there normally.
Definitely non factory welds on the upper A-arm mounts, but they appear close to where they should be (looking a picture of mine below). The shock does seem to be more forward as gracer7 noticed, which could be a frame, or subframe alignment issue.
It's not just the angle of the pic. The shock is definitely not sitting where it should in relation to the upper arm. More noticeable in person, or if I had taken a better picture..
TomU, thanks for the picture. It's hard to measure on my phone, but it definitely looks like my mounts are too far to the right. Not by a whole lot, though. Maybe one cm? I don't know whether that would be enough to add 3+ degrees of caster. For the record, 10.6 degrees is as low as that side would go, so it's probably closer to 5 degrees difference in total.
The frame looks totally okay, though. None of the underbody braces are misaligned or anything and there's still the factory rust proofing underneath. I'll check the subframe for bends. I'm hoping the upper mounts are the cause! I'm talking to a shop about having it done there. They say they can check he alignment of everything. Depending on when I can get in there, I'll take the time to measure the position of the two mounts and compare it with the other side.
On full droop here, with max castor, 6ish - and a 50mm shock body, clearance was around 11mm at the back and 17mm at the front to the upper arm, something very wrong there.
What was your reference point when you say the upper arm is mounted in the exact same spot?
What are you measuring to?
You see, if the rest of that side is pushed back measuring to something else on that side won't be any good.
You can find the correct measurement points in the Mazda collision guide or take it to a body show with a rack straightening rig.
Or you could measure the upper arm location relative to a rear suspension pick-up point on the same side and compare Left side to Right side for a quick sanity check.
What was your reference point when you say the upper arm is mounted in the exact same spot?
What are you measuring to?
You see, if the rest of that side is pushed back measuring to something else on that side won't be any good.
You can find the correct measurement points in the Mazda collision guide or take it to a body show with a rack straightening rig.
Or you could measure the upper arm location relative to a rear suspension pick-up point on the same side and compare Left side to Right side for a quick sanity check.
I was checking the position of the mounts, so I used reference points on the inner fender itself. Here's a picture of my measurements, which were equal on each side.
You think the inner fender could be misplaced? The auction sheet shows that there was a repair done there. I'm hoping that the repair was done fine there, but the lower arm was bent at the same time and not replaced.
What do you mean about comparing the upper arm to the rear suspension?
What do you mean about comparing the upper arm to the rear suspension?
For instance, put the car on four jack stands at an even height with wheels off and use a square on the garage floor and a straight edge up to the rear of the front upper arm and make a chalk mark on the garage floor.
Then use square and straight edge to make a mark on the garage floor for the rear longitudinal link front mount.
Compare the distance from rear suspension mount and front suspension mount on the Right side and the Left side.
Thanks a lot. That sounds like a great idea. I'm going to mark the end of the arm as well as the mounts on the subframe to check if that's the problem either. Will keep the thread updated!
Finally found a day to bring it to the shop. The subframe is slightly bent, probably from when my car was vandalized and had to be towed. I told them flat beds only, and they used one to pick my car up, but probably didn't when they dropped it off at the body shop after the insurance company did their in house estimate.
Lesson learned: lower your car so they have no choice!
07-18-17, 03:50 AM
