99spec wheel widening writeup
 

Here's the deal, I own a set of 17" 99-01 spec stockers that are going to be widened. I found a shop in maryland called Ye Old Wheel Co. which does this for about 200 per wheel. They basically cut your wheel in half and weld on a wider ring half than they cut off.
This will not hurt the wheel's structural integrity. There are a lot of supra guys doing this with 600-800 hp/tq at the wheels with no problems.
The limit for widening is 2"
stock these wheels are 8.0JJ up front and the rears are 8.5JJ. You can see in my pics that this is a bit off from the actual width counting the lip.
I am going to be putting my 8.5 inch tires up front with 255's and I'll be widening my 8" wheels to 10" with 285 rubber.
My car has tenabe coilovers and with stock toes and trail arms. The toes and trails will be replaced with whatever i find to create the most space in the wheel well. Any recommendations?

attached are pics of one of the 8jj wheels. Any apparent blemishes are actually dust reflections on the camera lens. The wheels are mint; purchased from " '98 type RS." I highly recommend dealing with him (Adam).



I will take an after picture once I get them back. I't's going to be a little while until i can take them in because I am coming up on finals week but I'll keep you posted.

have a good day 7 owners.

I realize that I will likely need to use wheel spacers and longer lugs to make the wheels fit but I'm Going to try to squeez her first in and see what happens. Hopefully the smaller springs and links will do the 1.5 inch trick.

-Rob

I've heard rumors of widening aluminum wheels, but it is interesting to finally hear a real story about real wheels and a real shop for once. It will be cool to have some huge meats on (JDM) stock-looking wheels. I like your style. :)

Good pics -- I hope they help more people come to the understanding that an 8" wide wheel is not really 8" wide -- that the nominal width just refers to the bead width (the "tire valley") rather than the width of the rim. I had a confusing time trying to figure out offsets, etc. until I figured that out.

-Max

It would seem in widening the wheel from 8 to 10 inches, you will increase the offset by 50mm, which is one HELL of a spacer.....

Also, there is no suitable 285-width 17" tire available. You would be stuck running a 275/40.

It's actually going to be more like a 38mm offset increse since I'm going to be widening the front rims. The way I look at it is that I'm going to be 1.5 inches wider in the rear overall taking into account that the actual rears (which are now the fronts) were 8.5 wide. I say this because

Any tire combination suggestions would be greatly appreciated guys. I'm up to my nose in work right now so any help narrowing my decision would be great. I would use the old search button but I'm pretty sure that some new rubber must have hit the market since those posts were made.

just so we are on the same page these are the metric conversions.

1" = 25.4mm

1.5" = 38.1mm

2" = 50.8mm


Also the the center point of the wheel is actually going to to move back 1 inch thus changing the inherent offset (since it is the distance offset from the center). I will draw a picture to demonstrate this.

This picture demonstrates the shifting of the wheels center line by inch towards the back after the wheel was widened by 2 inches.

Remember, the "center" of the wheel may shift by only half the amount you add to the rim, but the mounting surface won't move with it.... so EVERYTHING you add is backspacing... you're gonna need a heck of a spacer in the rear.

I looked into and found a wheel widening shop a few years ago (Green's in Canada) when I wanted to widen my SSR's by 1".... i'd mount those wheels in the back and then crawl underand see howe much space you have tothe trailing arm.

My 10" BBS only have 42mm offset TOTAL, and they aren't but about a finger's width away from the trailing arm... and you're going to ADD almost that much.

You might want to be a little more conservative, and make them into 8.5-9's for the front w/ 255/40/17, and make the rears into 9.5's w/ 275/40/17 (the largest rear tire you can use anyway, and perfectly at home on a 9.5" wheel)

Ok I had George help me take a couple more pictures.

The first picture is scewed by the camera because the shot was taken so close. It's hard to see there but the wheel is almost exactly 9" ( about 8 and 7/8")wide.

2nd picture: my angle was a little off but I had my buddy holding the ruler perpendicular to the face of the mounting surface (which is what determines the offset). It was about 6 and 3/8" from the mounting surface to the back edge of the rim.

Calculation time... Ok now since the wheel is 9 inches wide that puts the center of the wheel at 4.5 inches from either side.

Now we measured 6 and 3/8" from the mounting surface to the back edge. If you subtract 4.5" for the back half of the rim you get the actual offset from the center.

(6 and 3/8") or 6.4 minus 4.5" = 1.9" offset which equals (x 25.4 for mm) 48.3 mm offset
on the "before" rim.

Using your suggestion which i think is a good one, " by adding 1.5 inches, the measurement from the mounting suface to the back will increase by 1.5 inches to 7 and 7/8". The center will shift back 3/4 inch.

If I widen the wheel by 1.5 inches the total "real world width will be 10.5 inches" the "paper" width will be 9.5 inches.

the new center will be 5.25 inches from either side. Subtract the back half from 7.9 (7, 7/8") and the new offset is 73.75mm offset. Which I don't see fitting.

this will require a 31.75mm or 1, 1/4 inch spacer.

Ptrhahn you're not but 10 minutes from me, I'm in Vienna. Anybody know of a good place to get some 1.25" spacers made around Northern Va.? Or any retail sources would be great.

thanks and have a good one,
Rob L.

pics of the latest measurements

george was having a tough time keeping the level under the ruler hence the fingers that are in the way.

Is there any kind of guarantee that they will not crack for a year or anything? I am not sure if this is the same thing but... I had a rim crack on my last car. I had a very experienced shop in LA fix it 3 times and it cracked everytime months down the road. I find it really hard to believe that they can cut the rim in half, weld in a 2'' circle, and weld it back together and have it last more than a year. Is there a website or anywhere where I can read up on how they exactly do it?

What is the optimal offset for a 9.5" wheel? I can make some calculations and figure this out based on peter's setup but I'd like to hear some first hand accounts because I belive that 1.25" may be more than I need since I will be able to run a slightly higher than 42 offest with a 9.5" rim. The thinner I can get these spacers the better. Thanks.

10/2 = 5 inch back halves.
42MM =1.7 inches
5+ 1.7 = mounting suface to back of rim 6.7"

dcrese back width by .5 inches = 4.25" halves.
mount to back = 6.7- 0.5 = 6.2 inches
6.2- 4.3= aprox 1.9" or 47mm offset.

73.75 (acual offset of my widened wheel) - 47 (ideal offset) = 26.75mm or 1.1" spacer.
so in theory a 1" spacer would probably do the job.

actually they cut the wheel in half and then weld on a cut portion from another wheel so there is only one weld. The cracking that you are talking about is probably on the face of the rim, which isn't touched during in this process. Thee are no sites that I am aware of that explain this but I'm sure that the shop will gaurantee their work. Just stay tuned and your questions will all be answered.

I really want to see how they do this because the shop I dealt with said that the crack would never be repaired enough for it to last a long time. And that was just a 1 inch crack. Not around the entire rim.

well I've ranted on long enough , I'll update everyone when I get the wheels back.

bad news, Ye Olde Wheel Shop no longer does this because it is to time consuming and they have a huge work load. I tried to bribe them but they just were not going to do it no matter what.

I guess I'll have to find a plan B

Plan B, run 9.5 x 17 SSR Comps, +42 offset (with 255/40-17) all around, or 9.5 x 18 SSR GT2s, +50 offset (with 265/35-18) all around. Good luck :)

Or get 4 8.5s like I did. I'm sure you can find another shop for this work though.

plan B is shipping the fronts to Monrovia Ca. to be widened by Eric at Vaughn Machine for 500 dollars plus shipping. The guy specializes in this and has custom rig built just for this purpose. He explained his process.. let me just say that the guy has definitely done his homework.

seems like a lot of money but it's what I have my mind set on. I know that I could have bought aftermarket rims yada yada.... I'll ship them out thursday and it'll take 3 weeks.

Unfortunately the 8.5's are not going to cut it, and I'm not big into the SSRs though they are nice wheels. If I more disposable income I would buy FM-10s or several HREs but I can't convince myself to spend that type of money. I think these wheels do a fine job of complementing the lines of the car and even with the added width will be lighter than 80% of the performance wheels on the market, let alone the rareness/sleeper factor. ;o) Later on I may buy a set of 10 wide 18" CCWs for track use.

-Rob

I need to find a link to that chart of tire heights.....

nevermind. http://www.sstire.com/tireheights.html

205 40 17 23.46
215 40 17 23.77
225 40 17 24.09
235 40 17 24.40
245 40 17 24.72
255 40 17 25.03
265 40 17 25.35
275 40 17 25.66
285 40 17 25.98


225 35 17 23.20
245 35 17 23.75
315 35 17 25.68
335 35 17 26.23

the recommended oem rear tire according to the rack is 265/40/17 which is 25.35 inches tall

tire width is 265mm / 25.4 = 10.43 inches on a 8.5 inch rim
which is a 1.23:1 ratio tire width / rim width

a 285/40/17:
width= 11.2"
tire:rim = 11.2/9.5 = 1.18:1

with my earlier real-world measurements of the rims I can assume that the tire wall would protrude about .45" beyond the bead lip on each side of the rim.

just for shits and giggles:
315/35/17:
height = 25.68" (just .02" north of the 275/40/17, and .33" away from stock tire height
width = 12.4"
tire/rim width ratio = 12.4/9.5 = 1.3:1 which actually isn't too bad.
this tire would protrude about .95" on each side


A side note * ABS has been eliminated and I am running an SM2 which will allow speedo calibration. So I don't believe that straying from stock height is going to hurt me too badly.

I'm going to take some measurements on the car an crunch some numbers, then I'll figure out how wide I can go. If needbe I will have some custom trailing arms made. I already have a source for custom made aluminum spacers.

-Rob

I'm doing all of these calculations in hopes of helping someone figure a setup out in the future. thanks

if the wheel was made to 10" a 315 would show a 1.24:1 width ratio which is close to stock. It would take fender pulling or flaring, recessed trailing arms and a huuuuge spacer (about 2") to get those 315's in place. I took a quick measurement from the spring to the fender and got about 12 inches.
I'm not really worried about the spacer because I have yet to hear of anyone having a suspension failure do to the added strain. But then again I've never heard of a 2" spacer. I will not need super long lugs because the spacer will have them built in. (if I went this route) so basically what this comes down to is a 2" spacer on with the rim extended to 10" with the fenders flared 1.5 inches.

A 285 could fit right now but we are talking about a seriously tight fit. With a 285 I would go 10 inches on the wheels.

A 275 would mount nicely on a 9.5 and fit fairly easily.

keep in mind that this car will make over 500rwhp will complete and yes I know that I am pushing the limits here but that's what this hobbie is all about. Any input is welcomed just remember that I am not aiming for your granie's setup.

Just invision OEM wheels with 315's on them. ahhh.....

I'm going to make some calls about the flares and find an engineer to talk to about the 2" spacer...

thanks again- Rob

last post, I promise.

for now...

If you're building a 500 hp car, then just one quick word of advice: Buy some real rims, and quit messing around, no offense. By the time you pay all this money for a less-than-perfect solution, you could just buy a decent set of SSR comps, or 5Zigen wheels in 10" widths and be done with it.... those super long studs and spacers, plus a welded wheel spell trouble, hassle, and expense. Believe me, I reasearched this ad nausium a few years ago. Three half-steps later I have a proper set of 18" BBS wheels that I really wanted in the first place... and I love them.

The "OEM" wheels aren't nice enough to warrant all that. Whats the point of an "OEM" wheel when you've got flares?

Also, the widest you can really go in 17" is 275/40. A 285/40 is too tall. A 315/35 won't ever REALLY fit... you'll need 11" wheels (meaning you need modulars, like fikse or CCW), AND trailing arms w/ spacers, AND rolled/flared fenders... and even then you'll need to leave the ride height high.... search for old pics of Kevin Wyum's car... he had/has them.

In 18", you can run a 275/35, and 285/30, or 295/30 with the proper wheel widths and offsets.

AND, if you TILL are hell-bent on doing this, here are the only people I found that would do it... for about $200/per wheel (plus shipping to and from Canada):

http://greensautomotive.com/

If you have substantive data which supports your to opposition to the widening process then please share.

I understand your viewpoint entirely and I expected it.

I'm not going to attempt the 315's because the numbers just are not there. I agree with your cost pont in relation to 315s. I just don't feel comfortable with huge spacers and have decided against flares.

Now the the worthiness of the wheels is subjective.... I think a lot of 7 owners would disagree with you but you can think what you wish.

Are you telling me that the 285s will top out in the wheel well?

thanks for the link

please post some pics of your BBSs which we've heard so much about.

Do you know of anyone running 295/18s in the back? I'd like to get some specs if possible.

thanks, Rob

Sorry, not trying to be discouraging... I just went down this road once, and wished i'd just not wasted the time and gone right to wheels that work. I don't have any problem with the widening process per se... just think that everything else you'll have to do to make it work probably won't be worth the end result.

For the 285 tire: To use a 285-section tire in 17" size, the only thing available is a 285/40/17. That's a TALL tire... 26" or so. It's also a very rare size. I'd say a 275/40/17 (25.7") is about as tall as you want to go, considering the stock was 25". In 18", you have the option of a 285/35/18 (just as tall as a 285/40/17) or a 285/30/18 that alot of people use... the 30-series is very short though (24.8"), and that's why I went with a 275/35/18 (25.6")... for a little more sidewall for traction, comfort, and to fill the wheel well up a little more, but half the people on this board will already tell you that its too tall because their obsessed with maintaining stock diameter. I can say that I actually have some light rub marks in the top of my rear wheel well plastic from the track though.. and thats with 400# coilovers in the rear... a 285/40/17, or 285/35/18 will only be worse.

For the 296/30/18... thats a fairly rare size, but you'll probably see it more since its used on the 911 GT2 and GT3. Its a little taller than the 285/30/18 (25"), so i'd be more comfortable using it... but it really should be on at least a 10.5" wheel with just the right offset, and I don't have exact specs on that.... My wheels are 10 +42's, and from the looks of it, couldn't be out any further... but there is about 1/2" clearance to the inside, and thats with the stock trailing arm... You could always come by and check them out sometime.

18 Inch
Tires Tire
Height
285 30 18 24.73
295 30 18 24.97
315 30 18 25.44
335 30 18 25.91

215 35 18 23.93
225 35 18 24.20
235 35 18 24.48
245 35 18 24.75
255 35 18 25.03
265 35 18 25.30
275 35 18 25.58
285 35 18 25.85
295 35 18 26.13
335 35 18 27.23
345 35 18 27.51

Yeah?

the 4th column is the tire height in inches

PM me with your number and I'll try to drop by to take a look.

thanks, Rob

here I will repost the 17 heights for comparison

17INCH TIRE HEIGHT
205 40 17 23.46
215 40 17 23.77
225 40 17 24.09
235 40 17 24.40
245 40 17 24.72
255 40 17 25.03
265 40 17 25.35
275 40 17 25.66
285 40 17 25.98


225 35 17 23.20
245 35 17 23.75
315 35 17 25.68
335 35 17 26.23

Sure... also bear in mind that actual heights and widths and recommended wheel widths vary from manufacturer to manufacturers... so the calculated sizes are approximate... Check the actual specs on each tire on tirerack or the manufacturers site... I've had four different sets of aftermarket wheels in various sizes, and tried a few others, so i've had most every size combo by now:

1. Stock 16x8 w/ 245/45/16 all around and 225/50/16 all around

2. 17x8 F/R w/ 245/40/17 all around (SSR's)

3. 17x9 F/R w/ 255/40/17 all around (SSR's)

4. 17x8 f, 17x9 r w/ 235/45/17 front, 275/40/17 rear (SSR's)

5. 17x8.5 f, 17x10" r w/ 235/45 front, 275/40/17 rear (Fikse's)

6. 18x8.5 f, 18x9.5 r w/ 235/40/18 front, 285/30/18 rear (Advan's)

7. 18x9 f, 18x10 r w/ 255/35/18 front, 275/35/18 rear (BBS)

Just to add my $.02. A LONG time ago. I cracked one my rims on my truck. Actually it really wasn't a crack. I hit a HUGE pot hole and about a 1'' triangle chunked off the lip.

I took it to this place in TJ and they made my rim like new again. In both looks and durability. I still don't understand how they did it, as they left no evidence that there was ever a problem. I kept those wheels for like 3 years after that. Oh yeah they charged me 50 bucks too.

Hey "montego", I know where you got your avatar from - it was from the "Thong Thursday" thread in the Lounge. I know because I have that pic as my desktop. You have a great taste in ass! :D

An approximation is all that I was looking for. I'm going to have to do some tire browsing before I can make a solid decision about anything.

Ha ha, yup that's where I got it from :bigthumb: oh and that asshttp://www.discodelic.netfirms.com/silly-panting.gif

what would you say the offset is on that ass?

just to update, I took some time to think about the end cost of this whole project and it was just too expensive and involved. I am going to play it concervative and stick with the stock widths and either 265s or 255s in the rear and 255s up front. The car will also be tuned down to accomodate the narrower tires. If I ever get serious, I will go with aftermaret wheels. Thanks for your input.

-Rob

Putting 255s on the 8" rims and 265s on the 8.5s isn't really a good idea. 245s max on the 8s and 255s max on the 8.5s.

20mm (on each side) overhang is what we're talking about with the rear 265s, whether that's too much or not remains to be figured out. I here a lot of theory but I'm waiting to hear from somebody who has tried this.

I do agree with the 245s up front after checking my numbers

rob

yeah and in theory you should not jump off a cliff. guess what? I'm gonna take someone's word on this too, without trying it out myself. the gain from 255 to 265 is not worth wondering about your "theoretical" safety. Why are you so intent on bucking the system? Tires, like brakes, are not something that you want to play around with.

Yes, you can probably get a 265 on the 8.5" rim. However none of the tire manufactures I looked at recommended anything less than a 9" rim with their 265 tires. Do what you wish but for an extra 10mm of rubber I would suggest that you pay attention to what the tire manufactures recommend. You will sacrifice performance and safety if you do otherwise.

dis1

I've done my own research (including calling a major manufacturer) and found that the 265s would almost certainly work without a problem; however the reduction in sectional width due to the narrowness of the rim will negate some of the gains from the wider contact patch. Abnormal wear will occur if you push the limits too far. per Tire Rack, Chevy and BMW have strayed .5 inches beyond the acceptable rim width "limits" straight from the factory with some of their cars in accordance with their engineers and tire manufacturers. That should tell you something about the conservatism of manufacturer specs.
Also notice in the pics on page one of this thread that the rims are almost 9" bead to bead. Don't assume that the rims are 8.5" wide just because that is what they are stamped as.

So the point is that the 265s will work on my particular rims per my own research of actual manufacturer spec widths and real world rim measurements. The manufacturer will not endorse this for liability purposes but the tech support guy unofficially knew of several people doing this without a problem.

Your points were all well taken and appreciated. I am just skeptical until someone can back their talk up with substantive info rather than forum heresay, and you did back yourself up with manu specs so that was good to go.


Now enough with the negativity!

That is some interesting info wanklin. My only added comment is that I measured my 8.5s and they were 8.5" measured from the inside of the lips. The way you measured your rims (lip to lip) is incorrect. Please see this article.

http://www.rsracing.com/tech-wheel.html

dis1

I think there's a distinct difference between whast will "work", and what will work well or work properly. A 265-section tire, generally speaking and for most tires, isn't going to work that well, wether or not it will fit. Why would you use something that admittedly isn't the best option? Just to say you did?

You'll probably get better performance out of a narrower section tire that fits comfortably on the rim. Also most all rims are actually wider than the nominal, stated width. Sometimes more than an inch... but that doesn't change the fact that manufacturers base their recommendation on the nominal width of the rim you buy, so as not to confuse anyone, or require that they break out the tape measure to get the "real" width.

Speaking from personal experience, as someone who has actually used a 275/40/17 tire on both a 9" and 10" wheel, a 255/40/17 on a 9" wheel, a 255/35/18 on a 9" wheel, a 275/35/18 on a 10" wheel, and a 245/40/17 on an 8" wheel, I would recommend not stuffing a 265/40 on an 8.5" wheel. That's not being "negative", it's just speaking from an educated and experienced perspective.

My measurement was definitely flawed according to the article but are you certain that this article agrees with every's manufacturer's definition of rim width? To be quite honest I really am not hell bent on the 265s, I just wasn't prepared to base my desision on a blanket statement on the forum from someone I know nothing about. I think we can all see that this whole setup is in the grey area, it probably would work fine but the gains really aren't worth the possibility of abnormal wear and the added cost of the wider tires.

I am always willing to listen to somebody who has real world experience in the area of question. I will just go with the 255s and call it a day, but I still encourage people out there to stop before they take other peoples word as gospel and do some research for yourself, you'll be surprised at what you might find.

I learned something interesting trivia at the bowling alley today from a highschool baseball coach. Did you know that Fidel Castro was a batting coach for the Washington Senators from 1960-1961? I thought that was pretty interesting....

take it easy, Rob

Wanklin,

Uh, sorry to throw a monkey wrench in this one BUT..... I know of two people that have widen their wheels for their rides and are doing fine. One of the characters in particular widen his wheels on his supercharged NSX. This particular car has, I believe, 450+hp at the wheels and is abused on the drag strip. You may want to give him a call. His name is Devin @ Payne Technologies, 248.649.3966 to get the low-down on the specs. Just in case you don't know this cat, he's one of the premiere Honda tuners in the U.S. and is a really good guy to talk to. Oh, and here are a few companies that still do the widening thing.

http://www.diamondracingwheels.com/S...cationWhls.htm
http://www.weldcraftwheels.com/

I think he had gone with the second company.

~Mike

P.S. LOL, Oh yeah and if there was a Fidel Castro in MLB, he wasn't THE Fidel Castro
http://www.marxists.org/history/cuba...1960/07/09.htm

Cuban athletes, such as Conrado Marrero, now 84, who threw out the first pitches at the March game and had played for the Washington Senators during the 1950s, traveled freely to the United States. American teams played exhibitions in Cuba. But Castro's revolution, the missile crisis, a failed U.S. invasion and the embargo ended that.

The Washington Senators apparently had a great number of cuban players before the Cold War.

http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=1638

http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/cubanpitcherdefects.html

I did a little research on my own and found a few links. Castro was definitely involved in baseball and had a mean curveball but this was just before the cold war. Some sources site him as being a pitching coach for the Orioles.

the baseball coach from the bowling place was a little off on his facts and nobody really knows for sure what the true story is. This guy was 100% sure of himself and we had no reason to question his baseball knowledge but it just goes to show you that you need to do your own research to filter out the nonsense. I'm sure that someone has asked Castro about this but it'll be tough to find a record of an interview. Interesting stuff none the less. Legend has it, had Castro succeeded in MLB the Cuban Missl Crisis would not have taken place.

Thanks for the widening links. We should look into their pricing for those who are interested.

-Rob