Water/Meth injection with no intercooler, how effective
07-25-17, 10:36 AM
#1
Water/Meth injection with no intercooler, how effective
How effective is a water/meth setup when not running an intercooler?
I couldn't find any maths on "XXXXcc's of W/M injection per XX PSI" or however many cc's removes a certain bit of heat.
Will be running a
12a Bridge port
IDA manifold w/ 55mm tapered throttle body
BW EFR 7670 or 8374
3" exhaust to RB muffler
Looking to get about 300-320hp at a low PSI, hoping about 14psi should do it...
I couldn't find any maths on "XXXXcc's of W/M injection per XX PSI" or however many cc's removes a certain bit of heat.
Will be running a
12a Bridge port
IDA manifold w/ 55mm tapered throttle body
BW EFR 7670 or 8374
3" exhaust to RB muffler
Looking to get about 300-320hp at a low PSI, hoping about 14psi should do it...
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KNONFS (07-27-17)
07-25-17, 07:06 PM
#6
How would one go about staging? I have a MS2 as my ECU, not sure if I can stage off that.
Also, no problems having a lot of methanol. Found a supplier that does 1 gallon jugs to 55 gallon drums. I am dead set on no intercooler.
One more point, what is the "acceptable length" that meth has to travel before it becomes useful? Is it instantaneous? Turbo output is literally going to a 90* elbow into this:
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07-26-17, 04:41 AM
#8
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Being that you have such a badass 12A setup and want to showcase it, I would order a custom intercooler from Bell Intercoolers and do the following:
- Single Inlet from Turbo
- Twin Outlet to Match 55mm Carbs/Throttle Bodies
- Twin Bungs in Each Outlet for 4x Methanol Injectors
- Set it up for an Air/Water Intercooler so you can run something relatively small and get incredible cooling benefits from it.
- Cobra (Mustang) Pump, Custom Water Lines, etc, and aim for 400whp to properly use that turbo.
07-26-17, 05:52 AM
#9
Being that you have such a badass 12A setup and want to showcase it, I would order a custom intercooler from Bell Intercoolers and do the following:
- Single Inlet from Turbo
- Twin Outlet to Match 55mm Carbs/Throttle Bodies
- Twin Bungs in Each Outlet for 4x Methanol Injectors
- Set it up for an Air/Water Intercooler so you can run something relatively small and get incredible cooling benefits from it.
- Cobra (Mustang) Pump, Custom Water Lines, etc, and aim for 400whp to properly use that turbo.
400hp would be way too much for me, keep in mind I will be running the stock limited 13 in wheels!
07-26-17, 06:57 AM
#10
MS2 can do meth injection, but you have to set it up as an on/off based on boost pressure. I ran an M10 (675cc/min) nozzle with an MS2 and it worked okay on a water-air intercooled setup. If you can afford it, MS3X or MS3Pro is absolutely worth the upgrade. I ran progressive water injection on my MS3X setup and it worked phenomenally. I had a M15 (1000cc) running straight water and was able to spray as little as 200 or as much as 1000 and anywhere in between. I had the opposite issue as you will have, I had low IATs (always sub 100F), and high boost that needed the knock protection of water.
07-26-17, 09:42 AM
#11
Arrogant Wankeler
I'd be leaning towards pre-turbo air atomiser myself, pwm pulsed solenoid to ramp it up with rpm/boost.
you simply won't match the delivered power for a given quantity of air/fuel that even a basic air to air will give however. You can do the maths on the energy consumption of the intercooler pressure restriction vs density increase and required tutbine input energy to achieve the same mass flow with just water meth at slightly higher boost. I was planning to run both in my first gen but didn't have a space to work on it so sold it, sticking with the fd now, engine bay is really tight, might still have a go at water eventually but it is hard to justify the effort when i will be setting it up for flex fuel to help pass emissions testing anyway.
you simply won't match the delivered power for a given quantity of air/fuel that even a basic air to air will give however. You can do the maths on the energy consumption of the intercooler pressure restriction vs density increase and required tutbine input energy to achieve the same mass flow with just water meth at slightly higher boost. I was planning to run both in my first gen but didn't have a space to work on it so sold it, sticking with the fd now, engine bay is really tight, might still have a go at water eventually but it is hard to justify the effort when i will be setting it up for flex fuel to help pass emissions testing anyway.
07-26-17, 08:31 PM
#12
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
I'd be leaning towards pre-turbo air atomiser myself, pwm pulsed solenoid to ramp it up with rpm/boost.
you simply won't match the delivered power for a given quantity of air/fuel that even a basic air to air will give however. You can do the maths on the energy consumption of the intercooler pressure restriction vs density increase and required tutbine input energy to achieve the same mass flow with just water meth at slightly higher boost. I was planning to run both in my first gen but didn't have a space to work on it so sold it, sticking with the fd now, engine bay is really tight, might still have a go at water eventually but it is hard to justify the effort when i will be setting it up for flex fuel to help pass emissions testing anyway.
you simply won't match the delivered power for a given quantity of air/fuel that even a basic air to air will give however. You can do the maths on the energy consumption of the intercooler pressure restriction vs density increase and required tutbine input energy to achieve the same mass flow with just water meth at slightly higher boost. I was planning to run both in my first gen but didn't have a space to work on it so sold it, sticking with the fd now, engine bay is really tight, might still have a go at water eventually but it is hard to justify the effort when i will be setting it up for flex fuel to help pass emissions testing anyway.
Jeezus: Why not just go with an Air/Air intercooler then? Top Mount, Front Mount, V-Mount, etc, it doesn't matter. Just get something to cool off the air before it gets to your 55mm TBs.
Do NOT inject methanol into your turbo's compressor. That turbo will live such a short life, it's not even going to be worth your efforts.
Sounds like you're going to want an Aquamist controller or something that can communicate well with your MS2 while doing ramped up/down injection types based on various parameters.
07-26-17, 09:38 PM
#14
Pre compressor has been done before. As long as you are getting propper atomisation it shouldnt errode the compressor.
Especially straight alcohol being .75 the density of water and more likely to be evaporated by the time it hits tje impellers.
Itis corrosive though. Not sure what straight methanol would do to you in that dept.
Of course i have no 1st hand experience with this, im just throwing 2c in.
Your power goals are realistic and it seems like a cool idea if thats what you want to do.
Also pre compressorinjection will shift your map to the right allowing you to use a smaller turbo.
Especially straight alcohol being .75 the density of water and more likely to be evaporated by the time it hits tje impellers.
Itis corrosive though. Not sure what straight methanol would do to you in that dept.
Of course i have no 1st hand experience with this, im just throwing 2c in.
Your power goals are realistic and it seems like a cool idea if thats what you want to do.
Also pre compressorinjection will shift your map to the right allowing you to use a smaller turbo.
07-26-17, 10:16 PM
#15
Arrogant Wankeler
There is a big difference between an air atomiser operating in its design range and a drilled out nozzle blasting straight fluid at the compressor, one isn't much different to driving in the rain, the other is like a water cutter. People have been using pre-turbo air atomisers for years. As much as Rice racing is an egomaniac and ripped people with his seals his WI kits worked, plenty of others people using similar boost fed atomiser setups for years including green brothers (JZG) from NZ who post big figures from simple setups regularly in this forum section on frequently driven and abused cars. rx72c has had cars running similar setups for years too. I really don't know why you yanks are so keen on installing a whole new shitty fuel system/pumps and multi-stage control which requires more effort for linear fuel delivery vs air atomisers. May as well just run flex fuel or do it properly with a second set of pump/reg/rails and real injectors run my the ecu in parallel with pump.
If air atomisers were so terrible the factory crank case venting of oil vapour/dodged up modified setups spewing oil vapour back into turbo intakes on cars without decent crankcase vent systems and any car driven on a wet day wouldn't have compressors left.
If air atomisers were so terrible the factory crank case venting of oil vapour/dodged up modified setups spewing oil vapour back into turbo intakes on cars without decent crankcase vent systems and any car driven on a wet day wouldn't have compressors left.
Last edited by Slides; 07-26-17 at 10:28 PM.
07-27-17, 06:28 AM
#16
There is a big difference between an air atomiser operating in its design range and a drilled out nozzle blasting straight fluid at the compressor, one isn't much different to driving in the rain, the other is like a water cutter. People have been using pre-turbo air atomisers for years. As much as Rice racing is an egomaniac and ripped people with his seals his WI kits worked, plenty of others people using similar boost fed atomiser setups for years including green brothers (JZG) from NZ who post big figures from simple setups regularly in this forum section on frequently driven and abused cars. rx72c has had cars running similar setups for years too. I really don't know why you yanks are so keen on installing a whole new shitty fuel system/pumps and multi-stage control which requires more effort for linear fuel delivery vs air atomisers. May as well just run flex fuel or do it properly with a second set of pump/reg/rails and real injectors run my the ecu in parallel with pump.
If air atomisers were so terrible the factory crank case venting of oil vapour/dodged up modified setups spewing oil vapour back into turbo intakes on cars without decent crankcase vent systems and any car driven on a wet day wouldn't have compressors left.
If air atomisers were so terrible the factory crank case venting of oil vapour/dodged up modified setups spewing oil vapour back into turbo intakes on cars without decent crankcase vent systems and any car driven on a wet day wouldn't have compressors left.
I've been running RR setup for over 5 years (on a DD RX-7, anywhere from 6000 -12000 miles a year), no erosion on the turbo blades. Started running straight water, and 50/50 mix during cold weather months, and then switched to 50/50 all year.
Last edited by KNONFS; 07-27-17 at 06:32 AM.
07-27-17, 08:07 AM
#17
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Another pre turbo water meth user here. Same turbo for 10 years now. One M5 pre turbo. its a drag car so around 150 or more passes a year. No turbo blade issues. 50/50 mix for half the time. strait water the other half.
Car is on E85.
I ran no intercooler for around 18 months trying to see if water injection would be enough. Under 30psi on a S480 turbo was fine. No issues. Above that and it was scary for me. Had a few issues but not sure it was the no intercooler or just me.
At 400hp is very doable with out a intercooler and water meth injection. IMHO. Even on pump gas. Get a bad *** ignition and spray as much as possible and back off from there.
Car is on E85.
I ran no intercooler for around 18 months trying to see if water injection would be enough. Under 30psi on a S480 turbo was fine. No issues. Above that and it was scary for me. Had a few issues but not sure it was the no intercooler or just me.
At 400hp is very doable with out a intercooler and water meth injection. IMHO. Even on pump gas. Get a bad *** ignition and spray as much as possible and back off from there.
07-28-17, 03:46 PM
#18
Side bar Topic, but somewhat related:
I am considering having a nozzle pre-turbo, but have always wondered about the compressor wear. Hoping I don't shorten the life of my EFR8374 too much. Anyone have pictures of their compressor after a significant amount of boosting miles?
I am considering having a nozzle pre-turbo, but have always wondered about the compressor wear. Hoping I don't shorten the life of my EFR8374 too much. Anyone have pictures of their compressor after a significant amount of boosting miles?
07-28-17, 03:47 PM
#19
Side bar Topic, but somewhat related:
I am considering having a nozzle pre-turbo, but have always wondered about the compressor wear. Hoping I don't shorten the life of my EFR8374 too much. Anyone have pictures of their compressor after a significant amount of boosting miles?
I am considering having a nozzle pre-turbo, but have always wondered about the compressor wear. Hoping I don't shorten the life of my EFR8374 too much. Anyone have pictures of their compressor after a significant amount of boosting miles?
07-29-17, 11:23 AM
#20
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Side bar Topic, but somewhat related:
I am considering having a nozzle pre-turbo, but have always wondered about the compressor wear. Hoping I don't shorten the life of my EFR8374 too much. Anyone have pictures of their compressor after a significant amount of boosting miles?
I am considering having a nozzle pre-turbo, but have always wondered about the compressor wear. Hoping I don't shorten the life of my EFR8374 too much. Anyone have pictures of their compressor after a significant amount of boosting miles?
you know the kind, it'll be the one where they dropped off the car with saddam for a detail, but saddam didn't do x/y/z, so they took the car and gave it to hilter and hilter put the stripes on the outside of the car, and now the car is at a third shop (stalins auto) and the turbo is buggered, and stalin is blaming hilter, and hilter is saying its saddam, etc etc.
Last edited by j9fd3s; 07-29-17 at 11:27 AM.
07-30-17, 01:29 AM
#21
i looked, and basically nobody has ever had a problem with spraying water at a turbo. gravel, yes. rocks, yes. just try to find a picture of a turbo damaged by water, you will find a couple, but there will be some weird convoluted story along with it.
you know the kind, it'll be the one where they dropped off the car with saddam for a detail, but saddam didn't do x/y/z, so they took the car and gave it to hilter and hilter put the stripes on the outside of the car, and now the car is at a third shop (stalins auto) and the turbo is buggered, and stalin is blaming hilter, and hilter is saying its saddam, etc etc.
you know the kind, it'll be the one where they dropped off the car with saddam for a detail, but saddam didn't do x/y/z, so they took the car and gave it to hilter and hilter put the stripes on the outside of the car, and now the car is at a third shop (stalins auto) and the turbo is buggered, and stalin is blaming hilter, and hilter is saying its saddam, etc etc.
I did find some pics of slight compressor wear, and a Volvo study that says 80k-100k miles and the compressor needs replaced. I figure that many miles out of a turbo is pretty good anyways. Since I have pushed my car about a mile total in 12 years, I don't know how many decades it will take me to do 80k...
07-30-17, 03:18 AM
#22
i looked, and basically nobody has ever had a problem with spraying water at a turbo. gravel, yes. rocks, yes. just try to find a picture of a turbo damaged by water, you will find a couple, but there will be some weird convoluted story along with it.
you know the kind, it'll be the one where they dropped off the car with saddam for a detail, but saddam didn't do x/y/z, so they took the car and gave it to hilter and hilter put the stripes on the outside of the car, and now the car is at a third shop (stalins auto) and the turbo is buggered, and stalin is blaming hilter, and hilter is saying its saddam, etc etc.
you know the kind, it'll be the one where they dropped off the car with saddam for a detail, but saddam didn't do x/y/z, so they took the car and gave it to hilter and hilter put the stripes on the outside of the car, and now the car is at a third shop (stalins auto) and the turbo is buggered, and stalin is blaming hilter, and hilter is saying its saddam, etc etc.
That would be the maximum, and it would taper down to 0% ethanol.
I believe this is a way more complicated question, as the amount of heat (i.e. there is less heat at 3 psi of boost vs 10psi, the delta is not linear), duration/location (throttle bottle location for injecting vs pre-turbo injecting cooling, longer time to flash/cool) of the AI will vary that number/question the OP has.
This post from the AI section has a study on compressor wear for pre-turbo. Essentially the larger the droplet the more wear, wetting of the walls yields a different wear pattern.
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-in.../#post11948313
The AI section has a bunch of info about Pre-turbo injection, and I am a proponent of going Pre-turbo. From the last that I have read, it would be best for 50/50 with dual stage IIRC.
You would also be surprised how bad a turbo has to be in order for it to affect spool/its ability to compress air.
07-30-17, 08:48 PM
#24
Arrogant Wankeler
http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml
This can give you a rough estimate, but you need to be aware that the software doesn't recognise a saturation curve for the liquid/vapours so if you throw massive fluid flows in the results are nonsense.
you need to use the 720 degree equivalent displacement, higher VE and a high specific fuel consumption for the figures to be representative of a rotary.
edit: example
http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossa...orDutyCycle=85
that is probably still a bit over optimistic as all the water won't flash to drop the turbo outlet temp that much(but will suppress knock), likewise post WI pre turbo figure is nonsense.
This can give you a rough estimate, but you need to be aware that the software doesn't recognise a saturation curve for the liquid/vapours so if you throw massive fluid flows in the results are nonsense.
you need to use the 720 degree equivalent displacement, higher VE and a high specific fuel consumption for the figures to be representative of a rotary.
edit: example
http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossa...orDutyCycle=85
that is probably still a bit over optimistic as all the water won't flash to drop the turbo outlet temp that much(but will suppress knock), likewise post WI pre turbo figure is nonsense.
Last edited by Slides; 07-31-17 at 10:33 PM. Reason: Added example